99% of Florida Golf is a Doak 0

[Keith Buntrock]

I had issues getting my car open today because the door was frozen shut.

This was the wrong time of the year for me to be seeing a thread in which anyone at all is speaking negatively about golf courses in Florida. Couldn't this wait until Spring?

The only golf course I am playing right now features a ceiling and a wall 78 yards away from the player. It is nice though that the track can be raced around in as little as a half hour. The faster you play, the cheaper the rate you pay. No carts are allowed either. And 34 people can play it at a time.

[JC Jones]

I had issues getting my car open today because the door was frozen shut.

This was the wrong time of the year for me to be seeing a thread in which anyone at all is speaking negatively about golf courses in Florida. Couldn't this wait until Spring?

The only golf course I am playing right now features a ceiling and a wall 78 yards away from the player. It is nice though that the track can be raced around in as little as a half hour. The faster you play, the cheaper the rate you pay. No carts are allowed either. And 34 people can play it at a time.

Have you seen the temps in Florida this week?  Down right unlivable.

[Keith Buntrock]

JC - That made me LOL... literally.

Well that explains why the Tour moved the Players Championship to May. More time for the turf conditions to improve after the snow melts.

[Bill_McBride]

JC

I think contrived and unnatural would be a fair description of many golf courses.   By mentioning swamp there I guess you're paying particular attention to the many water features the courses seem to incorporate, a feature I don't necessarily love either, but understand why they're there.   I imagine on a lot of those tracts of land the materials needed to build a golf course the golfer could 'see', (ie tees, greens, mounding...)  are dug out on site and where they've dug it out, they've filled it up with water.

Aerials of water surrounding fairways have helped sell golfers on FL forever and I think many of them love their backyard Doak whatever's.  Big World bruthu.

I understand why they are there.  Because its a friggin swamp

Have you pissed off the alligators yet?

They really dislike negativity about their habitat.  I'd keep my eyes open if I were you.  All the time.

++++

There's no doubt there is a lot of crap golf in Florida but 99% is a bit OTT.  30%?  Could be, but as pointed out, there are few true Doak 0's.

[JC Jones]

JC

I think contrived and unnatural would be a fair description of many golf courses.   By mentioning swamp there I guess you're paying particular attention to the many water features the courses seem to incorporate, a feature I don't necessarily love either, but understand why they're there.   I imagine on a lot of those tracts of land the materials needed to build a golf course the golfer could 'see', (ie tees, greens, mounding...)  are dug out on site and where they've dug it out, they've filled it up with water.

Aerials of water surrounding fairways have helped sell golfers on FL forever and I think many of them love their backyard Doak whatever's.  Big World bruthu.

I understand why they are there.  Because its a friggin swamp

Have you pissed off the alligators yet?

They really dislike negativity about their habitat.  I'd keep my eyes open if I were you.  All the time.

++++

There's no doubt there is a lot of crap golf in Florida but 99% is a bit OTT.  30%?  Could be, but as pointed out, there are few true Doak 0's.

Gators?  We dont need no stinking Gators.

Of course 99% is OTT but it was the only way I could ensure to get Pat Mucci's goat.

[Bill_McBride]

JC

I think contrived and unnatural would be a fair description of many golf courses.   By mentioning swamp there I guess you're paying particular attention to the many water features the courses seem to incorporate, a feature I don't necessarily love either, but understand why they're there.   I imagine on a lot of those tracts of land the materials needed to build a golf course the golfer could 'see', (ie tees, greens, mounding...)  are dug out on site and where they've dug it out, they've filled it up with water.

Aerials of water surrounding fairways have helped sell golfers on FL forever and I think many of them love their backyard Doak whatever's.  Big World bruthu.

I understand why they are there.  Because its a friggin swamp

Have you pissed off the alligators yet?

They really dislike negativity about their habitat.  I'd keep my eyes open if I were you.  All the time.

++++

There's no doubt there is a lot of crap golf in Florida but 99% is a bit OTT.  30%?  Could be, but as pointed out, there are few true Doak 0's.

Gators?  We dont need no stinking Gators.

Of course 99% is OTT but it was the only way I could ensure to get Pat Mucci's goat.

Nice job.  What were you, bored?  

[JC Jones]

JC

I think contrived and unnatural would be a fair description of many golf courses.   By mentioning swamp there I guess you're paying particular attention to the many water features the courses seem to incorporate, a feature I don't necessarily love either, but understand why they're there.   I imagine on a lot of those tracts of land the materials needed to build a golf course the golfer could 'see', (ie tees, greens, mounding...)  are dug out on site and where they've dug it out, they've filled it up with water.

Aerials of water surrounding fairways have helped sell golfers on FL forever and I think many of them love their backyard Doak whatever's.  Big World bruthu.

I understand why they are there.  Because its a friggin swamp

Have you pissed off the alligators yet?

They really dislike negativity about their habitat.  I'd keep my eyes open if I were you.  All the time.

++++

There's no doubt there is a lot of crap golf in Florida but 99% is a bit OTT.  30%?  Could be, but as pointed out, there are few true Doak 0's.

Gators?  We dont need no stinking Gators.

Of course 99% is OTT but it was the only way I could ensure to get Pat Mucci's goat.

Nice job.  What were you, boired?   

I'm in week 5 of break and have been done grading exams for 2 weeks, what do you think?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak, do you still think World Woods PB is an 8?  In the CG, that is high praise as in the public category it is one of 5 "8s" and that is behind one 10, and two 9s.  I posted this in the other thread about Fla.  I am about 80% sure I'll be at WWPB in Feb.  

JC, wasn't a lot of earth moved for WWPB?  I believe I know what you are saying, but Tom D. himself has said that there are courses that are not "zeros."  Maybe you just don't like his scale?

Anthony:

I have only been to World Woods the one time, so it would be wrong to change my mind about it without going back.  But I do not remember the course as fondly as most of my 8's, and all of those ratings have a bit of allowance for the neighborhood they're in.  It's definitely a 7 or better, maybe an 8.  So that's what we've got to beat on our new site.  I'm sure even if I don't succeed, Bill Coore will.

[JC Jones]

Most courses in Florida are contrived and unnatural due to the dearth of available land suitable for golf so maybe I am speaking generally about 100% manufactured golf courses and using Florida as a test case.  The course I'm looking at out my back window right now was a swamp 15 years ago and the course was built from the dirt they dug up to create ponds and other soils that were trucked in.  Tell me, what about that isn't "contrived and unnatural"?

From Links Magazine:

All that clearing, blasting and digging produced a very fine, modern—while traditional—golf course. One of the primary movers and shakers in the building of the course was a little-known but significant figure in early American golf course architecture, Charles B. Banks, Yale class of ’06. “Steam Shovel Banks,” had a specialty: deep bunkers—very deep bunkers. That philosophy yields some interesting and challenging situations at Yale. 



Tell me, what about Yale and Lido (and many other holes on Macdonald family courses) aren't "contrived and unnatural"?

How about Hollywood?



Florida is not the problem. Naples, if you can't play Calusa and a few others, is the problem.

24 degrees on my computer thermometer! Nobody is crying for JC living on a Doak 3!

Well, I do have to suffer through a round at the Hideout on Friday....

[Wyatt Halliday]

JC:

Seminole is a 9.

But the tenth best course in Florida is probably a 6.  You could say the same for many other states, but few of them have 1,000+ courses.

Sadly, Texas qualifies with 1,036. With a few exceptions, golf in the southeastern portion of our great state resembles much of what Florida has to offer due to similar landscape.

[Brad Fleischer]

Wyatt

So that's why you play EVERYWHERE else !

turtle

[Mike Sweeney]

JC:

Seminole is a 9.

But the tenth best course in Florida is probably a 6.  You could say the same for many other states, but few of them have 1,000+ courses.

Tom,

Apples and oranges. Name a state other than NY, California and maybe Michigan, which I don't know, where the 10th course is more than a 6?

Florida has different demographics than any other state. Why would The Villages (and a hundred others like it) try to build a Doak 6 for the 70 year old retired golfer on a fixed income who wants to play a round of golf before the shuffleboard tournament and the Early Bird? The majority of the courses in Florida are NOT built for the obsessed GCA golfer, especially Naples where JC has chosen to live.  

20 degrees and I am about to drive to Westchester to look at a property. I will take The Villages right now!

[JC Jones]

JC:

Seminole is a 9.

But the tenth best course in Florida is probably a 6.  You could say the same for many other states, but few of them have 1,000+ courses.

Tom,

Apples and oranges. Name a state other than NY, California and maybe Michigan, which I don't know, where the 10th course is more than a 6?

Florida has different demographics than any other state. Why would The Villages (and a hundred others like it) try to build a Doak 6 for the 70 year old retired golfer on a fixed income who wants to play a round of golf before the shuffleboard tournament and the Early Bird? The majority of the courses in Florida are NOT built for the obsessed GCA golfer, especially Naples where JC has chosen to live.  

20 degrees and I am about to drive to Westchester to look at a property. I will take The Villages right now!

Well, The Villages is Florida's friendliest hometown.

Why couldnt old folks play a Doak 6?  Do you think a course with wide fairways and fun greens would be easier for them than having water and swamp on every hole so they have to lose a dozen balls a round?

Or, are you saying that because they are old they dont deserve a Doak 6?

Down here in Naples, these courses ARE built to be Doak 6's.  There is a reason they have brought down "name" designers to do them.  There is plenty of Arthur Hills, Rees Jones, Hurdzen/Fry, etc. here.  Do you think they are spending all that money, ALLEGEDLY THOUGH NOT PERSONALLY CONFIRMED, because they want to build an "average" or Doak 3 course?

[Mike Sweeney]

  Do you think they are spending all that money, ALLEGEDLY THOUGH NOT PERSONALLY CONFIRMED, because they want to build an "average" or Doak 3 course?

No which is why I don't go to Naples for golf and when I do I ONLY play Calusa Pines with Dickie!  

Everybody knows Naples has average golf. Should we classify all of New York by the courses in Syracuse ?

In addition, yes I AM saying the residents of The Villages don't want to pay for a Doak 6. This architecture stuff is expensive to maintain and I would guess the majority of the people there are on fixed incomes.

[Jim_Kennedy]

The courses in The Villages aren't surrounded by water, to the contrary, they're a pretty 'dry' bunch.

Golf is an entirely different animal when you get up in the central hills.

[BCrosby]

JC -

You do know that the Fernandina Beach Municipal Golf Course in in Florida, don't you? 

Bob

[Matt_Ward]

Mike S:

New Jersey could possibly make that claim of having ten courses with at least a Doak seven !

Part of that is helped by the two Trump courses which are very, very good.

[JMEvensky]

JC -

You do know that the Fernandina Beach Municipal Golf Course in in Florida, don't you? 

Bob

The spirit of TEP lives on.

[JC Jones]

  Do you think they are spending all that money, ALLEGEDLY THOUGH NOT PERSONALLY CONFIRMED, because they want to build an "average" or Doak 3 course?

No which is why I don't go to Naples for golf and when I do I ONLY play Calusa Pines with Dickie! 

Everybody knows Naples has average golf. Should we classify all of New York by the courses in Syracuse ?

In addition, yes I AM saying the residents of The Villages don't want to pay for a Doak 6. This architecture stuff is expensive to maintain and I would guess the majority of the people there are on fixed incomes.

If they didn't want to pay big money, why did they bring in Arnold Palmer?

[JC Jones]

The courses in The Villages aren't surrounded by water, to the contrary, they're a pretty 'dry' bunch.

Golf is an entirely different animal when you get up in the central hills.

I just looked at the website and every hole on the Palmer course has water on it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

You have to look better than that, there are numerous courses at that site that are pretty dry.  I may have misled you into believing that there was no water anywhere.

[JC Jones]

You have to look better than that, there are numerous courses at that site that are pretty dry.  I may have misled you into believing that there was no water anywhere.

I just looked at the website again.  There are 9 "championship courses."  Water is on at least 15 holes of 7 of those courses.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why couldnt old folks play a Doak 6? 

Do you think a course with wide fairways and fun greens would be easier for them than having water and swamp on every hole so they have to lose a dozen balls a round?

No, because to the DEVELOPER, wide fairways cost money and diminish the number of homesites.  The developer is the driving force, not the architect.
It's the housing, not the golf course that's the lure.

Or, are you saying that because they are old they dont deserve a Doak 6?

Most wouldn't be able to distinguish the difference.
It's the price of the homes, views, amenities and convenience that's the key, not a Doak 4 vs 5 or 5 vs 6.

Down here in Naples, these courses ARE built to be Doak 6's.

Which ones ? 

There is a reason they have brought down "name" designers to do them. 

It's for "brand" recognition, not the product.
Do you think the 70 year olds you reference could tell the difference between an Arthur Hills Course and a Hurzden/Fry course ?
A Doak 4 vs a 5, a Doak 5 vs a 6 ?

There is plenty of Arthur Hills, Rees Jones, Hurdzen/Fry, etc. here. 

Do you think they are spending all that money, ALLEGEDLY THOUGH NOT PERSONALLY CONFIRMED, because they want to build an "average" or Doak 3 course?

All WHAT money ?
Could you tell us how much each architect got for each course ?
What would the next level of architect charge ?  And, what type of "brand" recognition would they get in terms of selling home sites if a lower tier architect were used ?

[Jim_Kennedy]

You're looking in the wrong place. 

[JC Jones]

Why couldnt old folks play a Doak 6? 

Do you think a course with wide fairways and fun greens would be easier for them than having water and swamp on every hole so they have to lose a dozen balls a round?

No, because to the DEVELOPER, wide fairways cost money and diminish the number of homesites.  The developer is the driving force, not the architect.
It's the housing, not the golf course that's the lure.

That doesn't even come close to answering the question and is a statement to drive the conversation you want to have and on your terms.  Moreover, were you involved in the development of the Villages?  If not, I dont think you are capable of having an opinion on why did what they did.

Or, are you saying that because they are old they dont deserve a Doak 6?

Most wouldn't be able to distinguish the difference.
It's the price of the homes, views, amenities and convenience that's the key, not a Doak 4 vs 5 or 5 vs 6.

so what?  Irrelevant.  Were you involved in the development of the Villages?  If not, I dont think you are capable of having an opinion on why did what they did.

Down here in Naples, these courses ARE built to be Doak 6's.

Which ones ? 

You're right, they dont want to be Doak 6's, they want to be Doak 10's

"When the image of Naples National Golf Club comes to mind, one immediately has visions of excellence, prestige and the glory of the game. When Dr. Michael Hurdzan and Dana Fry first designed the course in 1992, their vision was to achieve perfection."

There is a reason they have brought down "name" designers to do them. 

It's for "brand" recognition, not the product.
Do you think the 70 year olds you reference could tell the difference between an Arthur Hills Course and a Hurzden/Fry course ?
A Doak 4 vs a 5, a Doak 5 vs a 6 ?

Were you involved in the development of the Villages?  If not, I dont think you are capable of opinion on why they hired the designers they did.

There is plenty of Arthur Hills, Rees Jones, Hurdzen/Fry, etc. here. 

Do you think they are spending all that money, ALLEGEDLY THOUGH NOT PERSONALLY CONFIRMED, because they want to build an "average" or Doak 3 course?

All WHAT money ?
Could you tell us how much each architect got for each course ?
What would the next level of architect charge ?  And, what type of "brand" recognition would they get in terms of selling home sites if a lower tier architect were used ?


Did you read the word ALLEGEDLY?  We've already had this discussion.