[Tom_Doak]

JC:

Seminole is a 9.

But the tenth best course in Florida is probably a 6.  You could say the same for many other states, but few of them have 1,000+ courses.

[Jay Flemma]

I understand what JC's trying to say though...that too many Florida courses are overpriced and under-designed.  I once paid $180 for TPC Tampa Bay...big mistake!

[JC Jones]

JC,
You've been supplied with quite a few courses that aren't zeros, and I could give you quite few more, including several Ross courses, and places like Mission Inn, etc., but I don't think it will matter. It seems that you have decided, in the face of what will probably be a continuing stream of evidence to the contrary, to believe what you want.

So be it, but a credibility gap can happen if you are willing to maintain a position that has been so easily shown to be false.

Relax Jim.  It was an obviously hyperbolic and rhetorical statement for the purpose of sparking discussion.  The discussion I want to have, which has nothing to do with the weather, is centered on the words "contrived and unnatural," which is why I've reiterated them 3 times now. 

Most courses in Florida are contrived and unnatural due to the dearth of available land suitable for golf so maybe I am speaking generally about 100% manufactured golf courses and using Florida as a test case.  The course I'm looking at out my back window right now was a swamp 15 years ago and the course was built from the dirt they dug up to create ponds and other soils that were trucked in.  Tell me, what about that isn't "contrived and unnatural"?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lets start the discussion with a definition of a Doak 0:

A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, one I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

Tell me how this doesn't explain most courses in Florida as most are extremely contrived, anything but natural and have been built with ridiculous sums of money.

JC, your above statement would seem to indicate that you have little familiarity with courses in South Florida.

While I do have very little familiarity with courses in southeast Florida,
I'm not sure how the above statement indicates that.

It's rather obvious

Where did you obtain the information that led you to post your conclusion that courses in South Florida cost ridiculous sums of money ?

I never said anything of South Florida, I said Florida (which, contrary to popular belief, extends North and West of "South Florida."

I think that undermines your premise even more.
Could you identify the courses in Florida that cost ridiculous sums of money to build ?

In addition, tell me how Pine Tree, Seminole, Boca Rio, Doral, Jupiter Hills Village and Hills are extremely contrived and unnatural ?


I can't as I've not played any of them.  However, even if the ones you list are not extremely contrived and unnatural, that does nothing to refute my statement.

Of course it does, it's a direct refutation.

You made wild, unsubstantiated statements.
Could you provide the facts to substantiate your position ?
IF not, would you recant your position/statement



Don't believe everything you read 

Dont worry, I dont.



I'm not so sure about that.
Where did you get the information that courses in Florida cost ridiculous sums of money to build ?
Could you identify those courses and the cost to build them ?

You didn't get your information from personal involvelment.
Hence the logical conclusion is that you read it somewhere

[Steve Lang]

  or channeling MW

[JC Jones]

Pat,

There are 1300 courses in Florida, how many of them are the very nice courses in Southeast Florida?

Can I include the 30,000 square foot clubhouse in my "cost to build" numbers?

The courses you listed do not comprise 1% of Florida golf courses so it is not a "direct refutation."

So you are saying that unless I had personal involvement with the building of the course I am not to believe any publicly available numbers of cost to build?

[Jim_Kennedy]

JC,
I'm totally relaxed, there's no need to get yourself in a snit because I'm disagreeing with you. You put forth the unsustainable premise, not me, and as you said, you expected the challenge.

You say that most courses are contrived, and unnatural, and you offer the one you're looking at outside your window as proof, yet   quite a few posters have offered up numerous examples in rebuttal to your position. It would stand to reason that such a large group of dissenters have collectively seen quite a few more courses than you have, and be better able to give a much broader picture of what truly exists in Fla, but it's pretty apparent that you still are unconvinced. This isn't about changing your opinion, just recognizing that it's the minority view.

Bacon's 'Idol of the Cave' comes to mind here. 

[Mike Sweeney]

Most courses in Florida are contrived and unnatural due to the dearth of available land suitable for golf so maybe I am speaking generally about 100% manufactured golf courses and using Florida as a test case.  The course I'm looking at out my back window right now was a swamp 15 years ago and the course was built from the dirt they dug up to create ponds and other soils that were trucked in.  Tell me, what about that isn't "contrived and unnatural"?

From Links Magazine:

All that clearing, blasting and digging produced a very fine, modern—while traditional—golf course. One of the primary movers and shakers in the building of the course was a little-known but significant figure in early American golf course architecture, Charles B. Banks, Yale class of ’06. “Steam Shovel Banks,” had a specialty: deep bunkers—very deep bunkers. That philosophy yields some interesting and challenging situations at Yale.  



Tell me, what about Yale and Lido (and many other holes on Macdonald family courses) aren't "contrived and unnatural"?

How about Hollywood?



Florida is not the problem. Naples, if you can't play Calusa and a few others, is the problem.

24 degrees on my computer thermometer! Nobody is crying for JC living on a Doak 3!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

There are 1300 courses in Florida, how many of them are the very nice courses in Southeast Florida?

How many have you played ?

How many cost ridiculous sums to build ?  Could you identify those that did ?

Or, would you like to retract a statement that you can't substantiate ?

Can I include the 30,000 square foot clubhouse in my "cost to build" numbers?

NO

The courses you listed do not comprise 1% of Florida golf courses so it is not a "direct refutation."

So you are saying that unless I had personal involvement with the building of the course I am not to believe any publicly available numbers of cost to build?

That's correct.

Would you please IDENTIFY those courses you alluded to that cost ridiculous sums to build.

I've asked you time after time for that information, but, you continue to avoid answering.

PLEASE, answer the question, or admit that you made a mis-statement.

Thanks

[JC Jones]

JC,
I'm totally relaxed, there's no need to get yourself in a snit because I'm disagreeing with you. You put forth the unsustainable premise, not me, and as you said, you expected the challenge.

You say that most courses are contrived, and unnatural, and you offer the one you're looking at outside your window as proof, yet   quite a few posters have offered up numerous examples in rebuttal to your position. It would stand to reason that such a large group of dissenters have collectively seen quite a few more courses than you have, and be better able to give a much broader picture of what truly exists in Fla, but it's pretty apparent that you still are unconvinced. This isn't about changing your opinion, just recognizing that it's the minority view.

Bacon's 'Idol of the Cave' comes to mind here. 

Using the phrase "relax Jim" was not a good way of responding and does not reflect the great amount of fun I am having with this discussion.

They have offered up proof that they have played those courses and that they do not believe them to be Doak 0's which I will assume means they do not believe them to be "contrived and unnatural."  In addition, I completely agree that the "dissenters" have seen more courses, in the aggregate than I have.  However, I am speaking from a widely accepted generalization and generalizations are just that and are reflective of a majority.

Nice reference to the "Idol of the Cave," though the "dissenters" are likely as guilty as I am.  Which was a point on the "underwhelmed by greatness" thread I tried to make but it was largely ignored.  This is all subjective, which makes our arguments reflective of our personal preferences and also makes it fun to discuss as we try to convince each other we are right.

[Kyle Harris]

JC Jones,

A vast plurality of golf courses are contrived by your usage.

Unless you can find grass that naturally grows at those lengths or the random bits of sands strewn about the countryside.

I think the Doak 0 is meant to point out those golf courses upon which the hand of man is the only thing evident. Think Stone Harbor 20 years ago.

[Jim_Kennedy]

JC
My first reply to you was in agreement. I said that I believe that  type of course could exist in Florida but I hadn’t seen any.

If a page load of posts, even one from the man who wrote the dang  CG and says that of the 30 courses he saw he found 5s, 6s and one 9, but no 0s, still hasn’t convinced you, then what will?     


edit: I an not trying to change anyone's opinion, just get more of us to realize that the ones we sometimes hold are in the minority.

[Tony Weiler]

Tom Doak, do you still think World Woods PB is an 8?  In the CG, that is high praise as in the public category it is one of 5 "8s" and that is behind one 10, and two 9s.  I posted this in the other thread about Fla.  I am about 80% sure I'll be at WWPB in Feb.  

JC, wasn't a lot of earth moved for WWPB?  I believe I know what you are saying, but Tom D. himself has said that there are courses that are not "zeros."  Maybe you just don't like his scale?

[JC Jones]

Pat,

There are 1300 courses in Florida, how many of them are the very nice courses in Southeast Florida?

How many have you played ?

How many cost ridiculous sums to build ?  Could you identify those that did ?

Or, would you like to retract a statement that you can't substantiate ?

Can I include the 30,000 square foot clubhouse in my "cost to build" numbers?

NO

The courses you listed do not comprise 1% of Florida golf courses so it is not a "direct refutation."

So you are saying that unless I had personal involvement with the building of the course I am not to believe any publicly available numbers of cost to build?

That's correct.

Would you please IDENTIFY those courses you alluded to that cost ridiculous sums to build.

I've asked you time after time for that information, but, you continue to avoid answering.

PLEASE, answer the question, or admit that you made a mis-statement.

Thanks

Are you going to answer my questions or just respond with questions?

To answer your last question, I will, under your rules, say that I have no first hand knowledge of how much it has cost to build any course anywhere in the world because I was not involved in the project.  Therefore, I am incapable of making a statement as to how much a course cost to build and whether or not it can be considered too much.

[JC Jones]

JC Jones,

A vast plurality of golf courses are contrived by your usage.

Unless you can find grass that naturally grows at those lengths or the random bits of sands strewn about the countryside.

I think the Doak 0 is meant to point out those golf courses upon which the hand of man is the only thing evident. Think Stone Harbor 20 years ago.

My usage or Doak's usage?

Like Brora?

Or a swamp that is now a golf course? 

[JC Jones]

JC
My first reply to you was in agreement. I said that I believe that  type of course could exist in Florida but I hadn’t seen any.

If a page load of posts, even one from the man who wrote the dang  CG and says that of the 30 courses he saw he found 5s, 6s and one 9, but no 0s, still hasn’t convinced you, then what will?     


edit: I an not trying to change anyone's opinion, just get more of us to realize that the ones we sometimes hold are in the minority.

I don't recall stating any opinion on this thread, only asking questions.  More to clarify what "contrived and unnatural" was supposed to mean if it doesnt mean a swamp that is now a golf course.

[Kyle Harris]

JC Jones,

A vast plurality of golf courses are contrived by your usage.

Unless you can find grass that naturally grows at those lengths or the random bits of sands strewn about the countryside.

I think the Doak 0 is meant to point out those golf courses upon which the hand of man is the only thing evident. Think Stone Harbor 20 years ago.

My usage or Doak's usage?

Like Brora?

Or a swamp that is now a golf course? 

Yours.

Doak defined his usage by the courses he listed as Doak 0s.

[JC Jones]

Tom Doak, do you still think World Woods PB is an 8?  In the CG, that is high praise as in the public category it is one of 5 "8s" and that is behind one 10, and two 9s.  I posted this in the other thread about Fla.  I am about 80% sure I'll be at WWPB in Feb. 

JC, wasn't a lot of earth moved for WWPB?  I believe I know what you are saying, but Tom D. himself has said that there are courses that are not "zeros."  Maybe you just don't like his scale?

Well, I've certainly swung at the hornets nest with this one

I have no problem with his scale. 

[JC Jones]

JC Jones,

A vast plurality of golf courses are contrived by your usage.

Unless you can find grass that naturally grows at those lengths or the random bits of sands strewn about the countryside.

I think the Doak 0 is meant to point out those golf courses upon which the hand of man is the only thing evident. Think Stone Harbor 20 years ago.

My usage or Doak's usage?

Like Brora?

Or a swamp that is now a golf course? 

Yours.

Doak defined his usage by the courses he listed as Doak 0s.

He didn't say there weren't any, only that he didn't see any and admitted that most of what he saw was "the cream of the crop."  Or, maybe, the top 3%?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Are you going to answer my questions or just respond with questions?

Which questions didn't I address ?

To answer your last question, I will, under your rules, say that
[I have no first hand knowledge of how much it has cost to build any course anywhere in the world because I was not involved in the project. 

Therefore, I am incapable of making a statement as to how much a course cost to build and whether or not it can be considered too much.



Thanks

[Eric Smith]

JC

I think contrived and unnatural would be a fair description of many golf courses.   By mentioning swamp there I guess you're paying particular attention to the many water features the courses seem to incorporate, a feature I don't necessarily love either, but understand why they're there.   I imagine on a lot of those tracts of land the materials needed to build a golf course the golfer could 'see', (ie tees, greens, mounding...)  are dug out on site and where they've dug it out, they've filled it up with water.

Aerials of water surrounding fairways have helped sell golfers on FL forever and I think many of them love their backyard Doak whatever's.  Big World bruthu.

[JC Jones]

JC

I think contrived and unnatural would be a fair description of many golf courses.   By mentioning swamp there I guess you're paying particular attention to the many water features the courses seem to incorporate, a feature I don't necessarily love either, but understand why they're there.   I imagine on a lot of those tracts of land the materials needed to build a golf course the golfer could 'see', (ie tees, greens, mounding...)  are dug out on site and where they've dug it out, they've filled it up with water.

Aerials of water surrounding fairways have helped sell golfers on FL forever and I think many of them love their backyard Doak whatever's.  Big World bruthu.

I understand why they are there.  Because its a friggin swamp

[Patrick_Mucci]

Eric,

You hit the nail on the head.

Many, if not most purchasers of "golf course residences" crave water views.

Why wouldn't you, especially when you consider the alternatives.

Hence, "residential community" golf in Florida has to be seperated from "Private Club" golf in Florida.

JC fails to see the distinction, prefering to lump and generalize.

[JC Jones]

JC fails to see the distinction, prefering to lump and generalize.

Point to where I have failed to see this distinction?  Talk about putting words in my mouth.

If anything, your southeast Florida private club myopia is causing you to think that most of the courses in Florida aren't built on swamps.  In fact, I named several Naples private clubs that are built up unnatural courses (though I haven't played ALL of them so they are sandy soil, natural as can be, unless proven otherwise mine eyes).

[JC Jones]

Are you going to answer my questions or just respond with questions?

Which questions didn't I address ?

Pat,

There are 1300 courses in Florida, how many of them are the very nice courses in Southeast Florida?

To answer your last question, I will, under your rules, say that
[I have no first hand knowledge of how much it has cost to build any course anywhere in the world because I was not involved in the project. 

Therefore, I am incapable of making a statement as to how much a course cost to build and whether or not it can be considered too much.



Thanks

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