Best Robert Trent Jones courses?

[Tim Gavrich]

Where does Tanglewood--Championship fit in the RTJ oeuvre?

[Morgan Clawson]

His body of work in the RTJ Golf Trail in Alabama is pretty solid.

Lots of fun, beautiful holes there...

[Ronald Montesano]

Tim G.,
That's a good question.  RTJ seemed adept at forcing one line of play (hole #3 on Tanglewood-Champs is a perfect example...fade or die!) from time to time, which is one of his shortcomings from my vantage point.  You can't help but like the heroic 14th along the lake and as JNC_Lyon put it, the shorter par fours (15, 10, 6, 4, 1) are not driveable, but do provide the opportunity to come in with a short iron or wedge, providing birdie and par opportunities on the heels of a well-executed drive.  The holes that always drove me bonkers with RTJ were the ones where green and fairway are at the same level (or the green is a bit below fairway level), so he felt compelled to protect the front with a monstrous hazard, eliminating the runner.  He does this on 17, 13, 12, and 8 {if memory serves} at Tanglewood.  Those would be my two big concerns with any of his courses.

I would rank Crag Burn 1st of the ones I've played, then Seven Oaks and Tanglewood-Champions in a tie for second, with Glen Oak (eastern Buffalo suburbs) 3rd.  My guess is that only Crag Burn deserves a spot in his worldwide top ten.

[John Blain]

Another highly thought of RTJ course in New York is the Tuxedo Club in Tuxedo Park, N.Y. I've never played it but I have heard nothing but very good things from those who have played there.

JNC_Lyon: Good to hear from you. Regarding Seven Oaks I think the course had/has a lot of potential. As you know the routing is good, it has excellent par threes but the real shame is that the original RTJ design had twenty two fairway bunkers scattered about. In an attempt to save $$ the university (Colgate) decided to forget the fairway bunkers and instead planted thousands of ridiculoius and ugly blue spruce trees. In addition there were many huge elm trees that RTJ put in and were in very strategic locations. They all died in the dutch elm disease and were replaced by poplar trees - perhaps the worst tree you could ever plant on a golf course. So there you have it = a very respectable layout that has been compromised severely by plantings of pines and poplars.

Peachtree is the best RTJ course I have played  but I always thought Tom Doak's comment on RTJ's style was spot on: He's the Howard Johnson of golf course architecture. Long tees, big greens, etc. Many of his courses have the same look about them. Albany CC is a perfect example. Great piece of property but a long and boring golf course.

[Mike Wagner]

I'd have to say Spyglass.  I was startled to see how many folks in here don't think it's that great (aside from the first 4).  #3 (IMO) doesn't compare to the other par 3's (5,12,15).....and #2 doesn't do much for me compared to the rest of the world class par 4's.

[Matt_Ward]

Off the top of my head ...

Mauna Kea -- the new and improved version is better than what was previously there -- gets the dust off that grand layout
Crag Burn -- just located in the wrong section of NY State -- located nearer to the Metro NYC area and it would be viewed far differently
Peachtree -- not enamored with it but a strong layout and the best of the typical RTJ long tees / huge greens motif.
Chanticleer at Greenville CC -- like Crag Burn gets little attention because Greenville is not viewed by golfers as a place to go.
Dunes -- still the grand dame in the Grand Strand area
Spyglass Hill -- too bad the first five holes could not have been used as the ending stretch or have more of them included.

[Niall C]

I can only speak of his Spanish courses (I think a total of 12), but the original Sotogrande (1965) I believe is clearly better than the newer one (Valderrama). Better routing, much better par 3s and very varied set of par 4s. I find it interesting that he does mention both of them among his favorite. Together with Las Brisas and Mijas, also by RTJ, also in the Costa del Sol, they make up the more enjoyable courses worth playing down there (plus three others by Javier Arana, of course).

Regards,

Alfonso

Very interested to read your comments on RTJ courses on the Costa Del Sol, particularly comparing Sotogrande Old and Valderamma. I've only played Valderamma and to me by far the best thing about the course was some of the par 4's which I thought were wonderful. The par 3's were OK but 3 out of 4 of the par 5's I thought were at best poor and at worst awful. Hopefully I'll get to play Soto soon to compare.

Wasn't Los Naranjos one of his as well ? A good solid course with some nice holes without being great.

Niall

[JNC Lyon]

Another highly thought of RTJ course in New York is the Tuxedo Club in Tuxedo Park, N.Y. I've never played it but I have heard nothing but very good things from those who have played there.

JNC_Lyon: Good to hear from you. Regarding Seven Oaks I think the course had/has a lot of potential. As you know the routing is good, it has excellent par threes but the real shame is that the original RTJ design had twenty two fairway bunkers scattered about. In an attempt to save $$ the university (Colgate) decided to forget the fairway bunkers and instead planted thousands of ridiculoius and ugly blue spruce trees. In addition there were many huge elm trees that RTJ put in and were in very strategic locations. They all died in the dutch elm disease and were replaced by poplar trees - perhaps the worst tree you could ever plant on a golf course. So there you have it = a very respectable layout that has been compromised severely by plantings of pines and poplars.

Peachtree is the best RTJ course I have played  but I always thought Tom Doak's comment on RTJ's style was spot on: He's the Howard Johnson of golf course architecture. Long tees, big greens, etc. Many of his courses have the same look about them. Albany CC is a perfect example. Great piece of property but a long and boring golf course.

I did not realize there were so many bunkers in the original plans.  How many of those bunkers are actually necessary?  The land and lateral hazards defend the tee shots well on several holes.  I would love to get a look at those original plans.  Either way, the greens still remain the course's main defense.  I remember David Chung's statement that the Seven Oaks were the toughest he had ever seen.

Of course, Seven Oaks is making a big comeback with the help of the new superintendent (remind me of his name, I know he was formerly at CC of Rochester).  The pines between 2 and 3 are gone, as are the ones left of 8, left of 13, left of 17 and on both sides of the 18th Fairway.  There is a long way to go still.  However, the recent changes are a major improvement.

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Niall,

I would say that I am not alone in my opinion of Sotogrande vs. Valderrama. Most people over here share that feeling.

I do like Los Naranjos too, usually well maintained with fast greens. I would, however stick with the above or Las Brisas or Mijas Los Lagos  (although this one is very poorly maintained). Cabell Robinson does have a pretty solid layout called Santana which I don't know if you have played (and La Reserva is also fine)

Alfonso

[Niall C]

Alfonso

Apart from last year when I didn't go to Spain due to the credit crunch I had played Santana the previous 4 trips and it was one of our groups favourites. I realy enjoyed it and unlike a lot of Spanish courses it doesn't play half way round a mountain. Back then it was dirt cheap but I note that they have put the prices up way up in the last year. Having enjoyed Santana so much we played another Robinson at Finca Cortesin a couple of years ago as our big course of the trip and I have to say I was very disappointed. Maybe it was because I played badly, which I did, or the fact that the course was in poor condition but it wasn't half as much fun as Santana.

One thing I did notice with Cabell Robinson is that he likes to have raised fronts to his greens such that you can't judge distance or see the bottom of the flag. Once or twice is OK but it starts to get repetitive after a while.

La Reserva and Las Brisas are two others which are on the radar. How do they compare ?

Niall   

[BCrosby]

Next time you are at P'tree, don't miss the framed letter hanging in the locker room (just outside the shower) from Bob Jones to RTJ describing the kind of course Bob wanted built. I'm not sure RTJ gave it to him.

I had not heard Doak's quote before:

"[RTJ's] the Howard Johnson of golf course architecture. Long tees, big greens, etc. Many of his courses have the same look about them. Albany CC is a perfect example. Great piece of property but a long and boring golf course."

Hard to argue with that.

Bob

[Jud_T]

Ballybunion New? I'll have whatever he's drinking please......

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Niall,

Finca Cortesin is superbly maintained nowadays, probably as a result of the Volvo match play being played there. I don't really like it as it is not really walkable. It is a tough property to build a course on.

Las Brisas I would say is probably the best course in the area after the Sotogrande pair. Lots of fun with short par 5s and hard par3s. It was also landscaped by some famous botanical chap, and features trees and plants from all over the world. La Reserva is also fine, but hilly, as is the norm with most courses in the area that were not built before 1980. In fact the date the course was built is usually a good proxy to determine its quality.

In the area I would also recommend Arana's courses Aloha, Guadalmina South and Rio Real (in this order), in case you haven't played them

Regards,

[Doug Wright]

We have two very good ones in SC:  The Dunes Golf & Beach Club and the Chanticleer Course at Greenville Country Club.

Also, not one of his worldwide best... but, the Crooked Oaks course on Seabrook Island is very entertaining with an unusual routing (for this neck of the woods)

Michael, just curious (for my next trip down there)--how does Crooked Oaks compare to the non-Ocean Course courses on Kiawah Island?

[Chris_Blakely]

I don't know if it is one of his absolute best, but Casperkill CC (old IBM CC) in Poughkeepsie, NY is quite good and better than his 70's cookie cutter courses.  I believe the course was designed / built in 1944.

Chris

[Jim_Kennedy]

Chris,
It was built back then and I think you're exactly right about the differences between it and the later stuff. I played it in early November and it was in very good condition. They were raising the green on the third hole and had it roped off. It's a good idea to get this one up in the air somewhat, given its location.

Another one that was built very early, before Casperkill, was Quaker Hill in Pawling NY. RTJ did it for Lowell Thomas on Thomas' estate. It's a wonderful example of a nine-hole country club. Nothing pretentious, great old barn clubhouse, nice set of greens. Beautiful setting, very quiet and peaceful, makes you feel like you never want to leave.   

[Gary Slatter]

Great thread Bart. It's obvious RTJ has a lot of good courses.  Can we start a Dick Wilson thread?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Great thread Bart. It's obvious RTJ has a lot of good courses.  Can we start a Dick Wilson thread?

I have a suggestion for that....

[Ronald Montesano]

It seems that his really early (pre-1950) and some of his later stuff (1970 and beyond) is more palatable for the diverse players of the game.  That middle ground of 1950-1970 is where the trouble lurks.  This, of course, is a broad and sweeping generality and may be mocked, unproven and rebuked by just about anybody.

[JNC Lyon]

It seems that his really early (pre-1950) and some of his later stuff (1970 and beyond) is more palatable for the diverse players of the game.  That middle ground of 1950-1970 is where the trouble lurks.  This, of course, is a broad and sweeping generality and may be mocked, unproven and rebuked by just about anybody.

Of course, Crag Burn was constructed in the late 60s and early 70s (completed 1972), and Seven Oaks was built separately in 1956 and 1964.  Generality therefore rebuked.

However, I think you are right that most of his best stuff was in the early period.  I would pay a lot of money to see Durand Eastman Golf Course (Rochester, NY) in its original state.

[Bill_McBride]

His body of work in the RTJ Golf Trail in Alabama is pretty solid.

Lots of fun, beautiful holes there...

All Roger Rulewich, every last one of those repetitive holes on the Trail.

[Bob Jenkins]

I have heard the Eugene Golf Club in Oregon is a very good RTJ course and am thinking of going down to see it in the spring. Would it be worthwhile?

[Rick Shefchik]

46 responses so far, no mentions of Hazeltine. I guess that silence says something, too.

Dan Kelly and I have been lone defenders of Hazletine on this site, so I realize it is not in favor. But I will say this: the only two RTJ courses I've played are Spyglass and Hazeltine, and if it weren't for holes 1-4 at SH, Hazeltine wins. As it is, I have SH winning 3 and 2.

[Sean Leary]

I have heard the Eugene Golf Club in Oregon is a very good RTJ course and am thinking of going down to see it in the spring. Would it be worthwhile?

Absolutely. Very good course, not Top 100, but not far from that. Wonderful test for good players.

[Bill_McBride]

I have heard the Eugene Golf Club in Oregon is a very good RTJ course and am thinking of going down to see it in the spring. Would it be worthwhile?

Really strong course with tough par 3s, with the usual Pacific NW caveat:  lots of trees!  A whole lot of trees!

One interesting thing to see in the clubhouse is the original Chandler Egan routing side by side with the reversed RTJ routing.

The club invited Jones out to look at the course.  He saw the tees with ponds in front of them and suggested turning the routing around so the greens would be protected by those ponds.

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