Is restoration even worth it at City park in New Orleans?

[Richard Hetzel]

Obviously there is some nice golf history in New Orleans. There is a chance I may be able to spend a week in New Orleans this summer and of course, I will try and play while there.

I was checking out City Park in New Orleans and I know it was destroyed during the hurricane. My research led me to a nice 47 page .pdf file concerning the restoration of the city park, it's history and a renewal of it's WPA era golf courses. (gosh, what's not to like about WPA courses!)

Link is here:

http://neworleanscitypark.com/downloads/nocpgolf.pdf

Obviously, golf architectural work of this size and scope is hard to come by in this current economy. My question is; Is it is even worth putting all of this money into a 2 and 1/2 golf course complex when the area lies below sea level and is certain, at some point in the near future, to be completely decimated by another hurricane again.

Drainage, or the lack thereof has to be a serious and valid concern as well...

Has anyone played the courses prior to the hurricane?

Can any experts chime in?

[Bill_McBride]

I played one of the courses, have no idea what the name was but I think the longer of the two.  It was a nice course but nothing special.

The course sits right on the bayou and drained pretty well.  The flood during Katrina was essentially man made, the levees failed.  This was not rising water until the breech of the levees.  Assuming the Corps is getting it right this time, City Park should be rebuilt as it's one of the few city courses and has an interesting history.

[Mike_Young]

Bill,
They want someone who will pay for it as well as build it and run it.....

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,
They want someone who will pay for it as well as build it and run it.....

Aaaahhhh.  No city money, eh?

[Tim Nugent]

Now boys, no need to speculate.  The Masterplam is estimated at over $40 million for the 2 18-hole courses plus a 9-hole par 3, Maint. Bldg, and CH etc.  There is $5.9m in Park funds (Form FEMA damage claims) (US Taxpayers?) and $9.654m in State funding through FP&C (whatever that is) so only $24m more is needed from"Public funding and/or a private sector partner..
The timeline showed construction to begin last month so the course could be open in 2011 - did it?  Since they plan on moving 1.25m cubic yards of mud, they best be getting after it.
As with many such projects, instead of putting humpty dumpy back together again at a reason cost, they plan on a total rebuild with one 7,000+ yd course and on over 7,500 with national tournement aspirations - hence The Open Dr. ( wonder where they will park the cars?). Plus with all the water shown on the Masterplan, galleries could be interesting (but I'm sure Rees has it all worked out - afterall, he is the expert in all things USGA)

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

First of all the old courses were good classical designs. Of course the drainage will be poor in that part of the city. I have spoken to Kelly Gibson about the new project several times. He is excited about it. The budget is large, probably way to large. I am not so sure about the design but will reserve judgement until I actually look at it in detail. And most important of all New Orleans was not destroyed by a hurricane. Bay Saint Louis was hit by Katrina. New Orleans was flooded by a improperly maintained levee system and a highly irresponsible Federal Government which delayed reacting to the situation. The two agencies which have juridiction ove rthe levees were first and foremost the US Army Corp of Engineers and secondly a patronage driven state agency with secondary juridiction called the Orleans Parish Levee Board. The US Army has equipment, engineers and personel set up to do the repairs like those needed here mobilized and in place within 24 hours any point on earth, yet they were not deplyed to New Orleans at all. Seminole is more likely to be destroyed by a hurricane than any course in New Orleans.

[Mike Cirba]

Some years back I played both the historic "Wisner" course mostly designed by Joe Bartholemew, over which most of the old New Orleans Open used to be played, as well as the more modern "Championship" course, which was largely a Ralph Plummer design.

Both were enjoyable, with the former having quite a bit more character and interest, if shorter.

I believe there were four courses open to the public in that park at that time, the earliest having roots back to 1902.

I can't think of a reason not to try and recover...the courses that had been there lasted over most of last century.

I'm also of the conviction that the future of golf in America is in the building of reasonably priced courses back near our urban population centers.     I haven't yet read the article above yet and the price tag seems a big much on the face of it but growth in the game is not going to happen in the burbs.

[Bill_McBride]

I finally opened the link and read some of the verbiage and looked at the price estimates.

It works out to almost $20M per 18 hole course.

We completely rebuilt the Ivan-ravaged Pensacola CC course for $3.5M, including lifting most of the course 18" by sandcapping the fairways and new corridors.  The work was named Best Renovation of 2007 by Golf Inc. magazine.

What am I missing other than a chance to build two golf courses that ought to be affordable.   7500 yards?  Give me a F@#%& break!

Agreed with Tiger, those courses, at least the one I played, were low key and moderately challenging.  The plan laid out is a boondoggle pure and simple.

[Tim Nugent]

Bill, completely agree.  Seems like some locals got stars in their eyes and got "major golf tournement-itis".  Sounds just like a rehash of Ferry Point in NY.  I also plowed throught the Masterplan and found it lacking in substance but not Fluff.  Nowhere could I find any rational or justification for creating these "monster " courses.  I just got the gut feeling they were using Torrey Pines as a tempate.  But with dead flat land, a long course, flatish "6,000 sf greens at 1%-2.5%" and what looks to be a ton of water, will this generate the local play necessary to allowit to break-even?  I would be surprised if it became a "must-play" destination.  It just looks like a typical Florida-style course.

Where is the feasibilty study, where is a Pro-Forma, what are they going to have to charge?  Could 3 6,800 yd courses be built instead?  I wonder what would happen if they opened this up to Guaranteed Max, Design/Build/Transfer proposals where they got multiple turnkey solutions with known final pricing?  It's too easy for public entities to spend OPM in order to build a shrine to their own stupidity.  At least with a GM, DB/T route, the public could see what alternatives are out there and what the cost is.

Didn't a nice Palmer Course northeast of Baton Rouge just go belly up?

[Jim Sweeney]

A few things to consider:

1) Despite its name, City Park is a state facitility. It is not owned by the City of New Orleans.
2) There is a golf course and range in operation in the park, managed by Billy Casper Golf. It is very busy.
3) The concept referred to in the original post is all but dead. Currently the plan is to build one additional course, and a par three that would be primarily for juniors and the First Tee program. That is very up in the air due to all the things mentioned in this thread. The Golf Channel's "Golf in America" show featured City PArk and seemed to imply that the second course was underway. But it is not.
4) The motivators for redevelopment of the golf courses were more East Lake than Torrey Pines, in that the vision included redevelopment of urban blight areas near the park, as well as building a permanent home for the New Orleans Open on the PGA Tour. Like Torrey Pines, a private development group proposed the project and to fund it, though it would be a publically owned facility probably managed by a private firm such as Billy Casper. They have been unable, however, to follow through on needed fund raising.
5) How long ago was the last time City Park flooded, at least enough to wipe out the courses? It could flood again tomorrow, if the levy breaks. But the likelihood is that it will be a very long time before that happens..
Now I am no expert on City Park, but the information I have presented comes from a reliable, highly placed source. Personally I hope they can someday build a quality affordable, enjoyable course to complement what is already there.

[Mike Cirba]

Personally, I think the more various cities and their denizens try to follow the route of the Bethpage or Harding Park or Torrey Pines "chamPEEONship" courses, the more of them will fail to get off the ground.

They need to be what they were intended to be, unless you either have the USGA's funding, the San Francisco government's wasteful spending, or San Diego counties deep pockets and ocean views.  

[Mike Cirba]

Jim

Think we posted at the same time.

Thanks for helping clarify the intent.

[Richard Hetzel]

I think Katrina was a HUGE contributing factor in the levies busting, that and anything designed by man to contain mother nature will always have the possibility of destruction. I would say the odds of those levies breaking open again, or a direct hurricane hit are much better than any run of the mill, 100 year flood plain zoned area by the Army Corps of Engineers. I might take my chances of building a course in or near a 100 year flood plain, but surely not BELOW sea level with the prospect of trusting said  levies and earthen dikes to contain massive amounts of uber-destructive H2O.

That said, I think it could be a nice urban setting for golf, surely not Bethpage-like in scope (or terrain) nor would it be a tourney site for a PGA Tour event IMO.

They need to spend less than 25% of the allocated 20 million and make it a fun, decent muni for all to enjoy. They are gonna have a super hard time finding $40 million to remake that park for golf purposes one would think.

How many courses were there prior to the levy breaking? How many rounds were played there on a yearly basis? From this rendering there is a LOT of water on the finished product! This would be the previous rendition to the current plan I guess...