Golfweek Innaugural GB&I Rankings

[Jonathan Cummings]

My guess is that not enough raters saw the Archerfield courses for them to qualify...

[Mark Chaplin]

Jud - thanks!

[James Boon]

Scott - RND is way over rated it fell out of the GW top 100 a few years back. Lots of history and a few very good holes but lots of flat uninspiring holes.

Chappers

You and I agree about RND.  Its one of those courses which doesn't do a lot for me, but I don't hate it.  I am astonished that Doak could give it the same score as Deal and Saunton and higher than Burnham.  IMO, there is no contest between these four with RND being a very poor second cousin.  I don't care for the opening/closing nor the rushes holes.  That said, if one likes the rushes (and I will admit that they are a unique hazard), I think their opinion of the course will be much higher than mine.  Even with the dissapointing golf, I have a lot of time for the club.  They seem to have their heads screwed on right. 

Ciao

Scott,

I agree with these Mark and Sean, its a nice enough course, but no way top 40 material. As with Sean, the flat holes and the rushes did nothing for me. Having said that, its worth noting that in Robert Hunters "The Links" he mentions the 10th at RND...

"Another superb test for the long hitter is the tenth at Westward Ho! There one is faced with a big carry over the rushes if one wishes a short pitch to that very difficult green. The modest golfer seeking a five at this hole has little to do, but the bold and proud intent on a four may frequently feel themselves well out of it when they have registered a six."

Perhaps this, and Tom Doak's love of the course (included in his Gourmets Choice in the Confidential Guide, and I seem to recall the 9th also gets a mention in his Anatomy) have helped its profile a little?

Also, shouldn't Wentworth West now be moved across to the Modern List 

I can think of many lists Wentworth West could be moved to, but a Top 40 list wouldn't be one of them.

Andrew

Is it possibly the most "underwhelming" Colt course you've played ?

Is it a Colt course anymore ?

Andrew,

From the pictures I've seen, Wentworth West certainly isn't a true Colt anymore, though the routing is still the same. To be honest, I probably wasn't joking that much when I suggested it move to the Modern List? We need to see how the pros get on as well as how the members manage in everyday play, but it looks to me that if it was a brand new course then it would have a shot at the Modern List as the rest on there are somewhat underwhelming.

Maybe its turning into a bit of a ANGC for the European Tour? The pros are there every year so they have to keep making changes that some percieve necessary to keep pace with the top pros, and this has meant the course is some way from what it was originally. But every year at the Masters we hear of MacKenzie and Jones, so its no suprise that Wentworth will continue to mention the Colt heritage.

Cheers,

James

Cheers,

James

[Ally Mcintosh]

How Wallasey, RND and Portstewart (Strand) can make the Top 40 Classic list (26 of which I've played)
at the expense of Hillside, Formby and Saunton (East) beats me!

And how a Modern list (25 of which I've played) can fail to include either of the two Archerfield courses
or the magnificent Spey Valley leaves me even more bewildered!!

  

Jim, you are the first person I've heard who rates the Archerfield courses... Many see them as a huge missed opportunity...

Wallasey was the first that stuck out for me also, mainly because I know it doesn't make the Golf World Top 100... Also interesting to see The Renaissance Club at No.6 modern... I wonder whether it will debut in next year's Golf World 100... Only other one which appears in a vastly different place to Golf World is probably Cruden Bay...

So as a list, it interests me primarily to compare an American perspective of British courses against the British perspective

[Mark Chaplin]

As always Royal Cinque Ports gets a pretty rump deal, Golf World using a distinguished GB&I panel have Deal above - Cruden Bay, Machrihamish, Rye, St Georges Hill, Royal North Devon, Swinley Forest, Western Gailles and Royal West Norfolk.

I played the Archerfield course through the pines, enjoyable course but I'm not really into new layouts. In a different area it would be worth trvelling to play but between Gullane and North Berwick it's a tough market!

[Sean_A]

Have the experts come up with the story of Turnberry?  Should it be possibly listed as Modern?  

One course I think missed from the modern list is West Lancs.  I think this is mainly a 60s course by K Cotton that should be quite prominent on the list.    

I also wonder about Hillside as Hawtree did some quite extensive work there in the 50s.  There is no way I would give it a place on the Classic List, but certainly the Modern list if there is enough new stuff.

My other question is about Enniscrone.  Is most of that course new.  My impression was that maybe six holes were new - not enough to call it modern imo - if this is the case.

Hmm, Strandhill could be a modern course and if so, I would certainly give it a proud position on the Modern List.  I was told that the much of the course was designed in the 50s.  

Finally - what about Saunton West on the Modern List.  I think the course was seriously revised by Pennink in the 70s.  To what degree I am not sure.  

Chappers - maybe its time to acknowledge your heavy homerism - tee hee.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hi Sean,

Surely Enniscrone is modern as it was designed by Hackett?... But then we might be wondering where Murvagh has gone on the list... Certainly Saunton West would be a good one...

[Sean_A]

Hi Sean,

Surely Enniscrone is modern as it was designed by Hackett?... But then we might be wondering where Murvagh has gone on the list... Certainly Saunton West would be a good one...

Ally

Sorry, I didn't realize Hackett had a clean slate at Enniscrone.

I too would agree with Donegal.  How could this not be one of the best moderns in GB&I? 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Hi Sean,

Surely Enniscrone is modern as it was designed by Hackett?... But then we might be wondering where Murvagh has gone on the list... Certainly Saunton West would be a good one...

Ally

Sorry, I didn't realize Hackett had a clean slate at Enniscrone.

I too would agree with Donegal.  How could this not be one of the best moderns in GB&I? 

Ciao

Actually, I don't think he did Sean... I'm not yet up on my Enniscrone history although I did think that Hackett's design replaced a fairly rudimentary one from years gone by...

[Gary Slatter]

How Wallasey, RND and Portstewart (Strand) can make the Top 40 Classic list (26 of which I've played)
at the expense of Hillside, Formby and Saunton (East) beats me!

And how a Modern list (25 of which I've played) can fail to include either of the two Archerfield courses
or the magnificent Spey Valley leaves me even more bewildered!!

  

I like most of Spey Valley and some of Archerfield, not enough to put in top 40 though.  Spey Valley has best potential and is great value on the way north to Castle Stuart and Dornoch.

[Rory Connaughton]

As I understand it, the course that Eddie Hackett designed for Enniscrone in the early 1970's was a completely new golf course.

[Jeff_Lewis]

I'd rather play the 40th best Classic Course in GB& I than the 20th best course in the US, new or classic.  The depth there is just stunning. 

[Emil Weber]

Does anyone who has played RND agree with it as #35 Classic?

It's certainly not better than St. Enodoc at 39 ( I know you dont have too much love for the course but I think its great), but its a wonderful, interesting and charming links, so I'd agree with it at 35. On the other hand I haven't played nearly enough courses to have a valuable opinion...

[Jud_T]

I'd love to hear more detail about why the locals think RND is overrated.  Seems like such a cool old school place that would be high up on my wish list...

[Niall C]

MODERN

1. KINGSBARNS
2. CASTLE STUART
3. LOCH LOMOND
4. WATERVILLE
5. EUROPEAN CLUB
6. RENAISSANCE CLUB
7. OLD HEAD
8. CARNE
9. CARTON HOUSE - MONTGOMERIE
10. ENNISCRONE
11. TRALEE
12. DOONBEG
13. WOBURN - DUKES
14. WOBURN - MARQUESS
15. ST ANDREWS - CASTLE
16. THE GROVE
17. BEARWOOD LAKES
18. DRUIDS GLEN
19. CELTIC MANOR
20. ST ANDREWS BAY - TORRANCE
21. MACHRIHANISH DUNES
22. CARTON HOUSE - OMEARA
23. TURNBERRY - KINTYRE
24. THE WISELY
25. CHART HILLS
26. BALLYLIFFIN - GLASHEDY
27. THE DUKES ST ANDREWS
28. FOTA ISLAND
29. SKIBO CASTLE
30. K CLUB - SMURFIT
31. ROSAPENNA - SANDY HILLS
32. DUNDONALD LINKS
33. FOREST OF ARDEN - ARDEN
34. THE CARRICK
35. K CLUB - PALMER
36. CRAIL - CRAIGHEAD
37. ADARE MANOR
38. GLENEAGLES - PGA
39. BALLYBUNION - CASHEN
40. ST ANDREWS BAY - KITTOCKS

What constitutes modern ? By the looks of the list I would guess anything in the last 20 years. The one thing that struck me about the modern list is how many of the courses listed have been extensively remodelled or redesigned since they opened. Indeed some of them, the 2 courses at St Andrews Bay and also the Dukes Course at St Andrews, the work is that recent that you wonder if the panel were all judging the same course.

Niall

[Jud_T]

The dividing line is 1960.....

[Sean_A]

Jud

Westward Ho! is cool for what it isn't rather than what it is.  I don't think the course is wonderful, but I would always recommend folks see spend a day playing and hanging around the club.  It will likely change your idea of what a club should be.

Ciao

[Jud_T]

Sean,

Would the course be fun/interesting on a regular basis as a home club?

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Would the course be fun/interesting on a regular basis as a home club?

Jud

Yes, I do think the course is good enough to be a local member.  Just because I don`t think the course stands with the best doesn't mean it isn't good.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

MODERN

1. KINGSBARNS
2. CASTLE STUART
3. LOCH LOMOND
4. WATERVILLE
5. EUROPEAN CLUB
6. RENAISSANCE CLUB
7. OLD HEAD
8. CARNE
9. CARTON HOUSE - MONTGOMERIE
10. ENNISCRONE
11. TRALEE
12. DOONBEG
13. WOBURN - DUKES
14. WOBURN - MARQUESS
15. ST ANDREWS - CASTLE
16. THE GROVE
17. BEARWOOD LAKES
18. DRUIDS GLEN
19. CELTIC MANOR
20. ST ANDREWS BAY - TORRANCE
21. MACHRIHANISH DUNES
22. CARTON HOUSE - OMEARA
23. TURNBERRY - KINTYRE
24. THE WISELY
25. CHART HILLS
26. BALLYLIFFIN - GLASHEDY
27. THE DUKES ST ANDREWS
28. FOTA ISLAND
29. SKIBO CASTLE
30. K CLUB - SMURFIT
31. ROSAPENNA - SANDY HILLS
32. DUNDONALD LINKS
33. FOREST OF ARDEN - ARDEN
34. THE CARRICK
35. K CLUB - PALMER
36. CRAIL - CRAIGHEAD
37. ADARE MANOR
38. GLENEAGLES - PGA
39. BALLYBUNION - CASHEN
40. ST ANDREWS BAY - KITTOCKS

What constitutes modern ? By the looks of the list I would guess anything in the last 20 years. The one thing that struck me about the modern list is how many of the courses listed have been extensively remodelled or redesigned since they opened. Indeed some of them, the 2 courses at St Andrews Bay and also the Dukes Course at St Andrews, the work is that recent that you wonder if the panel were all judging the same course.

Niall

This is not a good list. The Belfry like it or not would be in the top 40. No Mount Juliet, Archerfield, Machyns and none of mine, all of which should be in the top 10. Saunton West should qualify if 1960 is the cut off, The Donegal, Remedy Oak are other notably missed.

[Bill_McBride]

As always Royal Cinque Ports gets a pretty rump deal, Golf World using a distinguished GB&I panel have Deal above - Cruden Bay, Machrihamish, Rye, St Georges Hill, Royal North Devon, Swinley Forest, Western Gailles and Royal West Norfolk.

I played the Archerfield course through the pines, enjoyable course but I'm not really into new layouts. In a different area it would be worth trvelling to play but between Gullane and North Berwick it's a tough market!

Especially with Muirfield in between as well.   

[Kevin Pallier]

Also, shouldn't Wentworth West now be moved across to the Modern List 

I can think of many lists Wentworth West could be moved to, but a Top 40 list wouldn't be one of them.

Andrew

Is it possibly the most "underwhelming" Colt course you've played ?

Is it a Colt course anymore ?

Touche 

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