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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Colt and Alison's work
« on: April 04, 2002, 05:04:41 PM »
I am doing some research on Plum Hollow Country Club in Michigan.  It is a 1923 Colt and Alison design that hosted one of the wartime Ryder Cup's and a PGA Championship in the 40's.  

It got me to wondering about the general opinion of Colt and Alisons work.  They are not discussed nearly as much as their contemporaries like Ross, Mackenzie, Thomas, Raynor, etc.  I am wondering what the tree house consensus is on their work.  Also, do they have a signature design like Ross's Pinehurst, Mackenzie's Cypress or Thomas's Riviera?  What does the tree house think is their best course - any nominations?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2002, 08:49:02 PM »
First you need to review Tom MacWood's Arts and Crafts In My Opinion.  This will give you much information on Harry S. Colt.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

TEPaul

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2002, 03:26:47 AM »
I know virtually nothing about Colt and Alison in America or elsewhere but I'm looking forward to hearing from the contributors who do.

All I can say is I was very impressed with Hugh Alison's  "Recommendation Report" to Pine Valley's 1921 Advisory Committee in their attempt to complete the final stages of the course following Crump's premature and unexpected death.

The depth of his thinking in both his hole drawings and also in his text was quite impressive and on most of them ironically was the reminder "This is to be considered preliminary!"

If it really was considered "preliminary", Hugh Alison was very very good, in my opinion!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2002, 04:15:58 AM »
Origininal Colt and Alison courses I have seen (from the Architects of Golf):

IL: Briarwood, Knollwood, North Shore, Old Elm (w/ Donald Ross).
 -- all four are very, very good and eligible for the top 20 in the state.

NJ: Pine Valley (routing with George Crump)
 -- 'nuf said?

WI: Milwaukee CC
 --  wonderful course - may even be underrated

England: Sunningdale (New), Wentworth (West)
 --  both very strong, but I like Wentworth much better

Northern Ireland:  Royal Portrush (Dunluce)
 --  second-best course in Northern Ireland

David:

In my eyes, their two very best works are Milwaukee and
Royal Portrush.  Both are very strong and a very positive
legacy to their work.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Chris_Clouser

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2002, 04:23:06 AM »
Don't forget Colt's work at Muirfield, St. George's Hill, Rye and at many other of the top courses in the British Isles.

Alison also was more of a world traveler.  He did courses in the U.S., Japan and I think he also did some work in South Africa and Australia if memory serves me correctly.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2002, 04:46:07 AM »
Chris:

My analysis above reflects only their original work.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

niels lindeboom

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2002, 04:52:41 AM »
Colt certainly did some great courses in Holland and Belgium, of which De Pan, Royal Zoute and Kennemer are on "the next fifty list" on this site.

De Pan and Eindhovensche are both short inland courses, lenghtwise similar to Swinley Forest and St. Georges Hill. The Kennemer and Royal Zoute in Belgium are both excellent links courses regularly rated in the top 100 in the world.

For such small countries Holland and Belgium now have quite a lot of courses, but these courses built around 80 years ago still easily top the list over here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2002, 05:28:03 AM »
To give a little background on Plum Hollow - It was built in 1923.  Art Hills did some minor renovation work in 1984.  Both Matthews and Newcomb list a recent renovation on their web sites.  I doubt that they both did work at the same time but one of them probably did.  I will know more in a couple of days.  

The strength of the course is the par 3's.  Most people who have played it agree that it has the best set of par 3's in the entire state of Michigan.  That is really saying something considering how good Oakland Hills and Pointe O' Woods par 3's are.  The routing has 3-3's, 3-4's, and 3-5's on the back nine.  It is a very well routed course.  There is a natural ravine that splits the property and great use was made of it on a criss-cross 3,5,4.  The biggest problem the club has faced is that it is in a low level area and has fought flooding and conditioning issues.  I am surprised that it has never made any "Top x" in Michigan lists.  I wonder if the conditioning challenges have lowered its rating.  The course probably could not hold another Major tournament today as it is stretched at 6800ish yards and property locked by the city that has grown around it in the last eighty years.  The course presents a great challenge and really keeps you on your toes.  The club has done a good job of preventing tree encroachment and letting the course settle in.  With the possible exception of a tree on the right side of #10, there are no trees unfairly inhibiting play as you see on so many eighty-year-old courses.  It really is a hidden gem and well worth seeing if any of you travel to Michigan.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Paul Turner

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2002, 07:25:47 AM »
Colt's name crops up everywhere when playing in GB&I.  Some are redesigns are like Muirfield, where he changed so much that the present course is essentially his.  

I believe Colt had a big impact at Lytham and Porthcawl, and he also built some of the best holes along the dunes at Hoylake. He also apparently worked at County Down, creating (I think) the current 9th and 4th, but I'm not sure what else.

His designs have stood the test of time and are mostly in a relatively pristine state..  His first course, Rye, is an exception, which has gone through many changes.

Rosses Point (County Sligo) is another top original course of his.  And I believe Hamilton in Canada is of a similar calibre.

There are also plenty of "lesser" original courses of his which I think would fall in the "5" range on Doak's scale:  Beaconsfield, Moor Park, Blackmoor, Berkhampsted, Denham, Church Brampton (Northampton),Trevose, Stoke Poges, Burnham Beeches, Camberley Heath, Isle of Purbeck.

I'd also love to get to see the Dutch courses that Niels has indentified, along with Falkenstein in Germany and Belvoir Park in N.Ireland.

Overall, I think you might find Colt's name attached to more, great, very good and good courses than any other architect.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George_Williams

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2002, 09:04:07 AM »
A favorite Colt course of mine that is seldom mentioned is the Toronto Golf Club (1912)- and they had the best soup and fresh French bread for lunch!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bruce_Matthews

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2002, 04:02:49 PM »
David-
Plum Hollow is indeed a fine layout and hidden gem.  You say the strength is in the par 3's and I agree.  But, the par 4's also guard par of the course.  The 435-yard fourth hole, 440-yard tenth, 401-yard 16th across the ravine are all superb.

Newcomb remodeled the second and eighth greens and my granddad remodeled the 4th hole.

I recently renovated 58 bunkers, added a few fairway bunkers and forward tees.

I tend to disagree with you about the tree encroachment.  There are many 50-year-old spruce that encroached on holes 2, 8, 10.  Silver maples affect tee shots on 4, 10, 11.

If you review the green complexes there are trees planted where original bunkers were.

I have pressed to remove selected trees and planted and have been successful with some on holes 8 and 11 and been met with resistance on other tree removal recommendations.
Fortunatly, many spruce are diseased and time will take care of the problem.

By the way, there are no plum trees left on the course.

The bunker renovation included heavier, more prominent capes on the features.

Turf quality is a problem as the Rouge River is polluted with salts.  Plans are to enlarge the pond adjacent the river and 18 green and go with city water.

During your investigations, please let me know who designed the course.  I've been working there two years and although the club and others say Colt and Alison, all indications are that it was designed by Reid and Connellan.

Either way, it is truly a great course.
-Bruce
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Nick_Ficorelli

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2002, 05:04:28 PM »
It's funny the Reid and Connellan would come up at Plum Hollow...the same was thought to be the case at Port Huron Golf Club.
I have uncovered documentation that Colt and Allison did what appears to be a new routing in around 1923 at the same time as they were working on Country Club of Detroit.
Port Huron was orginally routed along the western shore of Lake Huron but these holes were lost do to financial difficulties in the early 20's.
There will be a restoration project beginning this year to undo some hideous Newcomb renovations.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Nick_Ficorelli

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2002, 05:07:10 PM »
It's funny the Reid and Connellan would come up at Plum Hollow...the same was thought to be the case at Port Huron Golf Club.
I have uncovered documentation that Colt and Allison did what appears to be a new routing in around 1923 at the same time as they were working on Country Club of Detroit.
Port Huron was orginally routed along the western shore of Lake Huron but these holes were lost do to financial difficulties in the early 20's.
There will be a restoration project beginning this year to undo some hideous Newcomb renovations.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2002, 05:39:53 PM »
Bruce,

Welcome to GCA.  I am thrilled to see you participating.  Those of us who are here to learn can never get enough input from architects.

Your Grandfather did a fine job on #4 (Although I never saw it before) and I agree completely with your assessment of the best par 4's.  #16 is a world-class par 4.  

My wife thinks you did a great job on the forward tees.  Without them, the course was really a bear for the ladies.  

It's funny that you mention Reid and Connellan.  I found four historical sources on the course.  Three listed Colt and Alison and the fourth Reid and Connellan.  I assumed the fourth was a misprint.  I will try to look a little harder.

I have a ton of questions for you on Plum.  I sent you a private message thru GCA.  If you get a chance and want to, please respond.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2002, 07:27:56 PM »
Colt is metioned often on GCA and may have been the greatest golf architect to walk the earth.

There have been very few architects who can shadow Alison in America.

Bruce
What are your indications that Plum Hollow is a Ried/Collison design?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2002, 10:37:48 AM »
Has anyone played Hamilton?  How does it compare with his best heathland work?  I've only seen the one super photo in The Confidential Guide.

I'm also curious about the lost holes at The Eden course at St Andrews, and what Colt did on The New.  Anyone know?

I think Colt&Alison don't get as much coverage simply because the bulk of their best work isn't in th USA.  Perhaps if Timber Point had survived, it would have been different?

Architects are more revered over here, particularly Donald Ross.  I think in the UK, club members are mostly interested in the end result rather than the architectural pedigree of a course; for example, you hardly ever see a score card with the architect's name on it.

PS

The Colt hole I most want to see is the 18th at Blackmoor, a heathland course; it's supposed to be a corker!



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2002, 06:06:29 PM »
Paul
I would agree that Colt doesn't get the credit he deserves because the bulk of his best designs are outside the US. Although you would think his contribution to Pine Valley would merit attention - as well as his involvement at Garden City, The Country Club (Brookline), Detroit GC, Old Elm, Toronto and Hamilton.

Alison on the other hand probably produced the bulk of his best work in the US - Sea Island, Timber Point, CC of Detroit, Milwaukee, Kirtland, North Shore, Century, Bob O'Link, Burning Tree, Chevy Chase to name a few.

Colt and Alison should really be looked upon seperately because they worked seperately and their styles were dictinctive.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2002, 12:11:13 PM »
Tom

I agree.

I'm not at all familiar with Alison's work in the US.  Although perhaps his very best (surviving) courses are in Japan?  

How did Colt and Alison divide their work within GB&Ireland? Did they work more in tandem?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2002, 03:23:15 PM »
Tom,

I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain Detroit GC is Ross not Colt.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2002, 04:25:41 PM »
David
There was an existing 18 when Ross was called in in 1914 which resulted in 36 holes opening in 1916.

Paul
You may be right about his best work being in Japan, although he only designed five courses during his short visit, four of which exist today. He spent nearly a decade in the US and produced a large number of excellent courses. He really doesn't get the credit I believe he deserves over here.

I really don't know how they split up there work in the UK. I'm under the impression Alison's work in the UK was somewhat limited and it is not really known when he actually began working with Colt. He was secretary of Stoke Poges until 1914, then served in the war and then was off to the US as a representative of Colt, MacKenzie and Alison, then Japan, back home in the early 30's most likely working on the Continent, WWII and then off to Africa. He may have collaborated with Colt while at Stoke Poges and perhaps in the early to mid-30's - I'm really not certain.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2002, 04:27:29 PM »
David
I'm not sure how much of Colt's work was retained by Ross at Detroit GC - if any of it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Johnny B

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2002, 02:35:59 AM »
Harry Colt, I think without Alison did a lot of work in Ireland. As has been mentioned Royal Portrush, there is a strong probability that he contributed to Royal County Down to some degree and Rosses Point are his best known.  He also designed some courses around Belfast - Fortwilliam - some good holes but not memorable and poor land, Royal Belfast - good inland course on the shores of Belfast Lough and Belvoir Park - a very fine design within the city boundaries.
Interestingly as an aside - some changes are being made to Royal County Down.  I played off a new back tee at the first on Saturday which is good but there are also some less good changes - will post later.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2002, 05:15:15 AM »
I too am very interested in finding out a great deal more about Colt, his courses, contributions to others and also very much Hugh Alison due to some very interesting documentation involving him at Pine Valley.

There seems to be somewhat of a mysterious aura to Harry Colt, to me, however, maybe even more than somewhat mysterious, most particularly involving Pine Valley.

Tom MacWood mentions; 'you would think his contributions to Pine Valley would merit more attention', for instance. Why should his contributions merit more attention? All the evidence of his involovment at Pine Valley seems available and has been for many decades. There are a number of "rumors" about Colt and Pine Valley that have also been extant almost since the beginning of the club.  It appears to me at this point that those "rumors" have always been just that, "rumors". Exactly why they remain so strong may very well be a much more interesting story than what his actual contribution was.

Colt's contributions to Pine Valley are not so much of interest as to what is actually available there documentation-wise from him but how it was later handled, acted on, or more particularly not acted on or altered following his  on-site time and participation.

This documentation (and his participation) is a bit odd in that it's not really the available evidence of his hole drawings, for instance, but how you analyze them, and although they have been analyzed (by Jim Finegan) maybe they should be analyzed in more detail.

It's not easy to do actually, because there has never been any corresponding documentation from Crump himself. Finegan is an excellent historical researcher, often more in the personal and playing histories of golf clubs than the actual architectural evolution. Finegan is also quite "polite" in the way he characterizes various things and my take on his conclusions of Colt's actual contributions to Pine Valley is that it probably was far less ultimately than it has always been rumored to be!

There is, of course, Colt's remark, written in a magazine in 1914 or 1915 something to the effect that he had the honor to "lay out" Pine Valley, but all the available evidence would indicate that was not what it would seem to indicate. It looks to me as if Crump was a very clever marketer and he understood how to both solicit and also use Harry Colt's name and fame to further the cause of "popularizing" Pine Valley (soliciting notice and members). And that both of them may have had some sort of unwritten agreement to do just that and furthermore to "perpetuate" a perception of Harry Colt's involvment!

So the only way to track Colt's actual architectural contributions there is to very carefully analyze what was done there following his departure against the available evidence that was left there by him (the hole drawings). The fact is they just don't match much. But more detailed analysis should be done as to how they match at all.

Maybe, it's just me but this seems to be a bit of a common thread with Colt. I even tried to analyze Colt's contributions at Port Rush last summer with a person at the club who was known to know the most about the course. Colt did the course, no doubt, but again the details were unusually hazy. Same thing at Royal County Down, except there was no detailed mention of contributions at all.

Colt was no doubt one helluva solid and talented architect but there seems to be a mysteriousness about the details of his work, even his whereabouts sometimes. Why is that? What am I missing? Did he write, did he kept solid records, or were they lost?

Regarding Pine Valley, actually Hugh Alison's contributions (at a later date) are more straight forward and probably easier to document if or how they were actually put on the ground. The curiosity there however, is they appear to have never really been analyzed at all. The reasons, I believe, is they fall into an odd window of time for research that happened to just precede the first aerial photographic evidence of Pine Valley. So the only way to do it is to analyze it on the ground vs what was there previously (which of course is not easy to do). But Because Alison's drawings are interestingly pre and post recommendation it may not be that difficult to do.

But as I said in a previous post on this topic, I would love to know more about Colt and Alison because they and their work seems so interesting but I for one hope that the truth of Colt's actual and ultimate contribution to Pine Valley will become more clear so that the record can finally be set straight and these decades old "rumors" can be put in an accurate context.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2002, 06:38:17 AM »
Tom,

I am curious as to where you heard about Colt at Detroit Golf Club.  Do you mean Country Club of Detroit?  This is the way Detroit Golf Club was explained to me: 1899 - Owner William Farrand builds 6 holes.  1900 - Farrand builds 3 more.  1906 - an additional 9 holes are added (This is the only work that could have been done by Colt, but I was told it was Farrand and the head professional at the time).  1914 - Ross comes in and reworks the original 18 and builds a second 18.  As an interesting side note, they then got Albert Kahn to build their clubhouse.

This club has had some bad luck.  They have two great courses but the area around them changed from a very wealthy Jewish community in the 00’s – 50’s, to a war zone today.  Two years ago, they had a robbery on the golf course during their Women's Invitational.  The course has several armed guard stands within the property.  In addition, Ross built a championship North course and a par 68 South course.  The North course has lost their greens several times in the past twenty years and had to redo them.  The South course has completely pristine greens but is only a par 68.  If the South course greens were on the North course, the combination would easily be in the top five courses in the state.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Paul Turner

Re: Colt and Alison's work
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2002, 08:28:28 AM »
Tom P

Curious about your discussion with the member at Portrush.  Was there just a lack of details, no old routing plans...  Like you state, I don't think there's any ambiguity that Colt did the course.  There are plenty of contemporary reports from Darwin et al to confirm this.


As for the Colt's drawings at Pine Valley.  From memory, I've read two conflicting accounts:

Firstly from Tom Doak, who stated that the hole strategy was similar, eventhough the bunkers were more formalised, and then from Finegan's book (excerpted in a magazine) that stated that his holes aren't very similar to the course.

Johnny B

I've only seen a few pics of Belvoir Park.  Do you think too many trees have been planted?


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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