Is Pebble Beach overrated ?

[Adam Clayman]

Adrian, That was Paul Cowley's idea on how to improve the routing at Pebble. He worked on the crew there in his early life as an in the dirt type of guy. Now, he gets paid the big bucks to do the same on new designs (and some Re-dos)   

However, I highly doubt it would make the course better. It would increase the number of water views, but does that automatically improve the golf course? For one, there's a bit of an in and out going on at Pebble. To switch it all up would take away from that. When one stands on the 12th tee it isn't obvious how much the wind will affect things, but, by the time you walk off 18 green, you have had to figure the winds affect for most of the back nine. Certain holes (15 & 16) have a tendency to play either longer or shorter, even with out wind.

 

[Mac Plumart]

Who’s got it right?

Here is how the major rating entities have ranked Pebble Beach in relation to other US courses…

9th
5th
6th
7th
6th
11th

[Matt_Ward]

Adrian:

You keep on saying "a number of average holes" as to mean that those such holes are in equal number to the stellar ones. Please specify that to be clear. You might find that such holes you think less of (save for the 1st which I see as a dog) are better than what you think - when they are firm and when PB is prepared the way it should be. The sad reality is that PB is prepared to be more receptive to the masses as a whole. In my listing of all courses played -- PB plays really differently from those moments to when it is ready to play host to the world's top players. I have played the course following the last few majors played there and it's night and day difference in my mind -- especially when putting and making short pitches and chips to the targets.

Being a 3 handicap and having soft conditions allowed you to maximize any situation to your advantage. Playing off firmer surfaces and any type of miss or miscalculation would likely have fared differently. Adrian, I concede PB's 1st hole is a dog -- but the rest of the others -- can easily be a wash with SH's remainder -- the ones PB has along the ocean are light years beyond SH's first five holes and I like them too but PB's are world class stuff.

Adrian, your memory on #17 is spot on -- one doesn't see the ocean and how close it us from the view from the tee -- in my mind, that's what makes the hole so daunting -- it doesn't provide the backdrop of comfort that many better players usually insist upon. You really have to trust your instincts when playing from the tee area. You also backed off your previous comment on #14 -- maybe you have seen the light on that hole.

You mentioned about fishing -- did you do any when there ?

Mac:

It's a bit too high -- should be somewhere in the teens to mid-20's -- no more than 25th in the USA in my mind.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mac,
7.3 is the average, and throwing out the high and low gives a 7.

They've all got it right, for the most part PB stays within a two or three places of it's average. There is no better way to come to a conclusion of where a course should 'rank' than to use the largest possible sample from as many interested and knowledgeable persons as is possible. How many raters make up those lists, a couple thousand?, and how many visits to PB per year do they make.

Probably enough to figure out where PB should be placed.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I took some pictures of the broadcast of the Shell's match between Nicklaus and Snead at Pebble Beach in 1963.  Some observations:

- plenty of BROWN
- not plenty of cart paths
- token picture of a dog in the gallery to pay tribute to Geoff Shack.
- note the pushcarts in use on #7
- note the beach sand on 18...that's Jack's ball that plugged in it
- they skipped showing #12 so no pictures of it

Sorry for the lousy quality of the pictures, but I think they are interesting anyway:

http://picasaweb.google.com/gobeyrz/Pebble#

Click "slideshow" on the upper left corner.

[Adam Clayman]

Very Cool Kevin, Thanx.

My initial observations are; Wow did they play it short. The tee on 10 isn't even mowed anymore (I don't think). And on 18, wow, that tee is forward.

 The jog in the 7th green, on the right side, is also something that is not there. (or was not when I caddied there a decade ago.  Or, the influence from the bunker lip. And the size and shape of the bunkers all around the 7th green.

The trees left on 6 are interesting, when I was there they removed the last two Oaks, which really screwed up the aiming point for 14.

[Kevin Pallier]

You say plenty of courses have small greens -- OK. Name them that are better than PB and are located alongside such an unpredictable landscape like PB's.

Matt

I said I could name numerous courses that have small greens. As far as some decent layouts that I've seen that I think have relatively small greens:  Merion / NSW / St. Andrews Beach / Troon / Ballybunion / Lahinch - is that enough ?

You keep on harping about the course being in the top 10 -- I never personally said it should be that high -- but from your own comments one would be led to believe that PB is fortunate to be rated among the top 50 courses worldwide and that's its reputation is gleaned solely from having hosted numerous major events.

Where did I say that ?

I believe I said I dont think it belongs in the World Top 10 ahead of the likes of Merion / Sand Hills / NGLA / Pacific Dunes / Royal Dornoch / Royal Melbourne (C) etc

I appreciate that from a recent post you said you believe it should be a mid-teens to a mid twenties US course - where would you put it on a World scale ?

You also say erroneously, I might add, that the greens are not "awe inspiring" designs -- then it's more than likely you played the course when shoulder turns were needed to get the ball to the hole and as a result all of the movements that they do contain would be rendered at a far lesser danger element. Try making a curling putt on those surfaces when the wind is blowing and you have your work cut out for you.

Why is my opinion erroneous ? What greens at PB are "awe inspiring" designs ?

You also need to see the course when it is fully prepared with all defenses brought to bear when a big time event happens. The winter PGA Tour event only obscures so much of what PB is about. I can say this with relative certainty -- most courses don't have the wide degree by which PB can be about when prepared to the fullest,

I dont think that's quite right - if that was to be the case then - we should only judge courses once every 10 years or so when they are setup perfectly for Tournament play ?

Matt - I think we are a lot closer than at first glance ?

I think we both agree PB is not a World Top10 course and should be much further down the list ?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian:

You keep on saying "a number of average holes" as to mean that those such holes are in equal number to the stellar ones. Please specify that to be clear. You might find that such holes you think less of (save for the 1st which I see as a dog) are better than what you think - when they are firm and when PB is prepared the way it should be. The sad reality is that PB is prepared to be more receptive to the masses as a whole. In my listing of all courses played -- PB plays really differently from those moments to when it is ready to play host to the world's top players. I have played the course following the last few majors played there and it's night and day difference in my mind -- especially when putting and making short pitches and chips to the targets.

Being a 3 handicap and having soft conditions allowed you to maximize any situation to your advantage. Playing off firmer surfaces and any type of miss or miscalculation would likely have fared differently. Adrian, I concede PB's 1st hole is a dog -- but the rest of the others -- can easily be a wash with SH's remainder -- the ones PB has along the ocean are light years beyond SH's first five holes and I like them too but PB's are world class stuff.

Adrian, your memory on #17 is spot on -- one doesn't see the ocean and how close it us from the view from the tee -- in my mind, that's what makes the hole so daunting -- it doesn't provide the backdrop of comfort that many better players usually insist upon. You really have to trust your instincts when playing from the tee area. You also backed off your previous comment on #14 -- maybe you have seen the light on that hole.

You mentioned about fishing -- did you do any when there ?

Mac:

It's a bit too high -- should be somewhere in the teens to mid-20's -- no more than 25th in the USA in my mind.

Matt I said Finishing not Fishing. I do disike 14, I dont like the camber to the fairway, you need to come in from the right,
 its hard to get the bal there, if you are a bit left and it was F&F it woud be impossible, I also think the green is too severve and the slopes thru the back make it too tough. We all look for different things in our women and our golf holes, here are the average holes IMO. Remember I played in 1989 I think there are more bunkers now. I will try and be as nasty as I can
1. Resorty sort of hole could be in Southern Spain, has a tee, green, fairway, some bunkers and housing. 5/10
2. A more interesting hole with a downhill drive and a cross bunker some 60 yards bk from the green, nicey framed with pines, bunkers and scruffy brown grass. 7/10
3. A dull drive very open and a slighty downhill pitch into a boring green with a house behind.
5. Boring par 3 very parkand like with a green encircled by tall juniper trees, restricting the light with little architectural intrest.
11. Another could be anywhere short par 4 with little intrest architecturally
12. A poorly designed par 3 that has not taken advantage of the land at all. The green is too thin and guarded by bunkers making the hole almost impossible and the bunkering restricts much of the view of the putting surface.
14. A long raking dogeg hole to the right with the land canting to the left, the green is perched up high to repell almost all gof balls and the green shape borders mickey mouse where you coud be going backwards and fowards all day.
15. A mediocure par 4 that could be anywhere but more like one of the municipas in Bournemouth.
17. An exceptionally dull greet awaits your tee shot as all you see is a yellow pin against the grey sky, the green is so narrow you need to hit the pin with your 1 iron to stay on.
I have tried to be as nasty as I can,  but IMO these 9 holes if together with another 9 the same would form about the average golf course we see anywhere.
BUT, the great holes at Pebble are great and we all rate differently. I have played maybe 25 courses/ seen another 25 in the USA. I enjoyed Pebble because it was Pebble, but I was dissapointed. I was also dissapointed in Champions (Houston), Torrey Pines was okish, Cypress Point looked fantastic, Poppy Hills dissapointed. I liked some of the courses north of Houston like Waterwood. I am pretty sure Id love Merion and PV and I think Id be dissapointed with Augusta now.

[Ronald Montesano]

By the bye, this is exactly the type of thread I hoped for.  Now we are getting to the nuts and berries of this enigmatic and slightly polarizing golf course.  Who has information to contradict what Adrian quite proficiently just wrote?

[Sean Leary]

Very Cool Kevin, Thanx.

My initial observations are; Wow did they play it short. The tee on 10 isn't even mowed anymore (I don't think). And on 18, wow, that tee is forward.

 The jog in the 7th green, on the right side, is also something that is not there. (or was not when I caddied there a decade ago.  Or, the influence from the bunker lip. And the size and shape of the bunkers all around the 7th green.

The trees left on 6 are interesting, when I was there they removed the last two Oaks, which really screwed up the aiming point for 14.

The shape of the green on 7 looks a lot like the shape of the green of 15 at Cypress Point. The angle into the green is different of course, but I wonder if the shape was the inspiration for 15.

[Adam Clayman]

Sean, The green at CPC has less subtlety than the one down the coast.

Ronald, I'm sorry I don't have the attention span to repeat and/or refute Adrian's statement's. I disagree with all of them, especially the re-occurring one."could've been built anywhere". If that were true, why hasn't the hole in question been seen elsewhere? Seems like Raynor had success building similar holes everywhere. so what's Adrian's point?  Plus, his comments apparently missed a lot of the nuances of each hole because he only was there once.

Please do me the favor of researching the archives as I'm certain descriptions are there.

[ed_getka]

Kevin,
    Happy New Year. Thanks for posting the slideshow from Shell's WWOG. Very cool to see how Pebble used to look.

Adam,
    Given that you looped at Pebble, how much of the course could most interested golfers pick up on in 5-10 rounds? I'm asking because I wonder how much nuance there is at PB. I have been thinking about this in the context of Rustic Canyon which I know pretty well from all of my rounds there. Someone could golf at Rustic and wonder what all the fuss was and I'm thinking that I might have the same reaction that you are having about Pebble. Thus I am wondering how many times one needs to see Pebble to be able to have an "objective" opinion? Thanks. Happy New Year.

[Adam Clayman]

Ed, Objective or informed? A good caddy (and Pebble has many of those) will tell any interested golfer all he needs to know about specific spots. They need ask though.

I'm not sure how many rounds it would take any individual. An aware architecturally astute individual might see every thing their first round. It is all there right in front of you, after all. I suppose the answer would be tied to how adventurous the individual golfer is. Let's take the 11th hole as i.e. If one plays it out right on their first time, and, is easily able to get over the bunker complex on approach, they might not even be aware that the proper play is to be left off the drive. Isn't that why that huge fairway bunker resides on the left? But one can't go too far left because you run out of room. Thats the risk reward part of that shot. Right is wide open, but is it the proper play? Not just no, Hell no. How long does it take on the TOC?

What is interesting about Adrian's synopsis of his round twenty years ago. He didn't re-count the course, he remembered his shots.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adam I do remember the course fairly well, certainly on 11, I was aware of where I wanted to hit, although I did hit a bad tee shot here and was in the right hand rough, it was a perfect sand wedge for me that I hit stone dead (did not know it was stone dead till I got onto the green complex). I played this course 21 years ago, I remeber the pretty cross bunker at 2, the slopes and tiny green on 4, together with the chasms you drive over, the dip at the back of the 5th, the left to right slope on the front of 6, I remember being unclear how far I coud hit on 8 without going into trouble. I remember the 12th green complex, I remember the car path left of 13 and thinking it was like being on a monorail, 15 and 16th greens ran away towards the back,  I think I remembered it very well for a one rounder in a cart, athough I am sure I missed things I cant help not loving 1-3-5-11-12-14-15-17. We wont agree although I can see how people could ove 14 & 17 and the new 5th is obviously better. Remembering bunkering is not easy, I dont recall as much sand on 3..is this new from 89, has much changed in those years?

[ed_getka]

Adam,
   Informed, yes, better choice of words.
Interesting you brought up TOC. I'll never forget the day I played 36 holes there and how bummed I was when I realized I would not live long enough to see TOC enough times to figure it out.

I found it interesting that Adrian remembered all the shots he played. I remember a few shots from my round (about 15 years ago), but more about the course. For example, I agree with you about #1 green complex being interesting. It is an easy starting hole which I have no problem with but that green complex is far from easy. The shots I most remember are on #8. I vividly remember standing in the fairway with a 4-iron in hand for the approach and looking at that seemingly microscopic green on the edge of the cliff. My normal miss at the time would be right. I decided to aim at the front left bunker thinking a straight shot would go in and a miss right would be on the green. I hit it pure and straight into the bunker. I can't remember any other shots even though I made birdie on 13.
   In spite of everything I have said about the course over the years I do look forward to taking my son there to golf some day.

[Adam Clayman]

Adrian, I'm gad you expounded. Although #5 is NOT better. By a long shot. The reason? It does not fit the land well and has zero character. While the old hole fit perfectly and had nuances and Mojo galore. Throw in the route to 6 tee and you have a vastly better ebb and flow. Also, 15 and 16 green do not fall to the rear, but beyond the green's surface does.

I'll put this into perspective for anyone who wants to jump on it. 

 After playing Merion once, I felt the two courses were very close in quality. In other words great for similar reasons. They both are just a perfect mix of golf holes for the land they traverse.

[Sean Leary]

Although #5 is NOT better.

Yes , it is.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin:

When you use the terms "awe inspiring" greens there are only a handful of places I would apply that term -- ANGC, Oakland Hills South and Oakmont, and Winged Foot West come quickly to mind. PB has solid greens but I will say this again -- it seems you are ignoring or forgetting what I have previously stated -- PB is a far different course on a regular basis then when prepared for big time events. The greens are generally much slower and the breaks / contours you see are far less severe when in a slow form.

On a world wide basis -- I'd say PB has the goods to be in a top 25 standing -- in the USA I don't have it in my personal top 10 but it still has the goods to be in the teens for sure.

Wnen you talk about small greens -- it's more than just the absence of size - but the angle and pitch they possess. You add that to the length of the shots you generally face and when they are firm they are truly maddening. The other courses you mentioned are all noteworthy -- PB belongs in the league with the very few of that type.

Kevin, keep in mind ANGC is often judged by the conditions it presents during the Masters event. PB has had issues with turf conditions over the years but like I said there's no reason why firm and faster conditions cannot happen -- they would then present a far different couse than the one you likely encountered during your one time play.

We are likely closer to each ohther than we have been saying back and forth to one another. Agreed.

[Robert Thompson]

I played Spyglass with Ian Andrew this past spring, the day after playing Cypress and Pebble. I told Ian SH was in the Top 100 in the world and he laughed, saying there was no way it could be. We had a good discussion and I think the conclusion was that it had one of the most flawed routings of any significant course, with the best holes all happening in the first five. From there it is a slog of solid, but largely unremarkable, par-4s with raised greens flanked by bunkers. There are a few exceptions -- I thought 16 was a terrific hole -- but so much of it is easily to forget. I can't fathom how anyone could actually compare Pebble to Spyglass. I've played or seen almost all of the Top 10 in the world. Is Pebble in there? Maybe. But I'll admit I was surprised by how involved the housing is in the design and how close the road was on 15. However, it has five or six of the best holes in the entire world -- and I'd argue, as an example, that Spyglass doesn't have one comparable hole, though I was fond of the fourth hole.

[Kevin Pallier]

Adrian

Where would you rate it in comparison to what you've seen in GB&I ?

Matt

I haven't seen many of the courses you mentioned but when I say "awe inspiring" (greens) it doesn't need to relate to the course as a whole. I cant think of many at PB that would fall into that category ? I can relate 7-9 at nearby Cypress Point as a case in point amongst others.

Dont get me wrong - I think PB has some outstanding holes and as such some "amazing" highs and whilst Adrian may have overstated some of the detractions of the "lesser" holes at PB it does have it's deficiencies and these shouldn't be ignored.

For mine - I dont think I could include it now within the Top15 US courses that I've seen. I do think however - it is worthy of inclusion in the second Top25 grouping of courses in the World though I may not have it as high as some 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Architecturally ?  Absolutely NOT.

Pebble Beach is a GREAT golf course.

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin:

I don't know how you can definitively place PB in a standing of USA courses given your own limitations in having played a limited range of courses here in the States.

Kevin, you missed my point -- "awe inspiring" greens are limited to my knowledge to a handful of the elite places. Let me point out that Oakland Hills / South has some of the most terrifying greens I have ever played but I would not have the course among my top 25 courses in the USA for a host of other reasons.

When you mentioned Cypress Point I hold that place in awe for its overall design. PB being being CP is not a demotion but an elevation for what CP provides.

Kevin, I never said PB is bulletproof -- I've also acknowledged that the course has a number of so-so holes. But you keep on overlooking or failing to recognize what multiple plays can provide when assessing any course. I've played PB under a range of conditions and when circumstances were far away from the slow plodding turf conditions that often are the rule there. Let me point out that such a situation is not unique to PB but you can see slow plodding conditions periodically at a place like Pinehurst #2 and when that happens people often leave scratching their heads and wondering how the course is rated THAT high. The same holds true for people who play BB and wonder with greens that are quite flat and devoid of serious contour how it can be rated that high -- until that is when the greens are mowed and rolled to be in the 11+ speed range.

Kevin, the second 25 of world courses you have played !!! Are you saying the course would be somewhere from the 40th or higher to the 50th position?

Are you kidding or what ?

When I mentioned Nicklaus and Watson I also forgot to include the likes of Johnny Miller. I guess all of those superstars failed to see what you have seen. Pebble Beach gets plenty of attention no doubt about it -- but you need to play it when the firm and fast conditions I mentioned are present. The greens there are far from pedestrian and with even a hint of breeze the spine and character of PB is no doubt in full view. Check out the final round US Opens played in '72 and '92 and see firsthand what I mentioned. One other thing -- check out the pedigree of players who have won there. Rarely, do you find any name that is less than stellar.

Adrian:

Just a quick note -- it's too late now for me to answer your detailed hole-by-hole notations -- but I will -- in the same "nasty" way you articulated.

[Andrew Summerell]

Kevin:

I don't know how you can definitively place PB in a standing of USA courses given your own limitations in having played a limited range of courses here in the States.

Kevin, you missed my point -- "awe inspiring" greens are limited to my knowledge to a handful of the elite places. Let me point out that Oakland Hills / South has some of the most terrifying greens I have ever played but I would not have the course among my top 25 courses in the USA for a host of other reasons.

When you mentioned Cypress Point I hold that place in awe for its overall design. PB being being CP is not a demotion but an elevation for what CP provides.

Kevin, I never said PB is bulletproof -- I've also acknowledged that the course has a number of so-so holes. But you keep on overlooking or failing to recognize what multiple plays can provide when assessing any course. I've played PB under a range of conditions and when circumstances were far away from the slow plodding turf conditions that often are the rule there. Let me point out that such a situation is not unique to PB but you can see slow plodding conditions periodically at a place like Pinehurst #2 and when that happens people often leave scratching their heads and wondering how the course is rated THAT high. The same holds true for people who play BB and wonder with greens that are quite flat and devoid of serious contour how it can be rated that high -- until that is when the greens are mowed and rolled to be in the 11+ speed range.

Kevin, the second 25 of world courses you have played !!! Are you saying the course would be somewhere from the 40th or higher to the 50th position?

Are you kidding or what ?

When I mentioned Nicklaus and Watson I also forgot to include the likes of Johnny Miller. I guess all of those superstars failed to see what you have seen. Pebble Beach gets plenty of attention no doubt about it -- but you need to play it when the firm and fast conditions I mentioned are present. The greens there are far from pedestrian and with even a hint of breeze the spine and character of PB is no doubt in full view. Check out the final round US Opens played in '72 and '92 and see firsthand what I mentioned. One other thing -- check out the pedigree of players who have won there. Rarely, do you find any name that is less than stellar.

Matt,

Does it really matter if Kevin finds it overrated or would place it lower on a list than you?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian

Where would you rate it in comparison to what you've seen in GB&I ?

Matt

I haven't seen many of the courses you mentioned but when I say "awe inspiring" (greens) it doesn't need to relate to the course as a whole. I cant think of many at PB that would fall into that category ? I can relate 7-9 at nearby Cypress Point as a case in point amongst others.

Dont get me wrong - I think PB has some outstanding holes and as such some "amazing" highs and whilst Adrian may have overstated some of the detractions of the "lesser" holes at PB it does have it's deficiencies and these shouldn't be ignored.

For mine - I dont think I could include it now within the Top15 US courses that I've seen. I do think however - it is worthy of inclusion in the second Top25 grouping of courses in the World though I may not have it as high as some 

Kevin, I am not sure how many GB & Ire I would put infront of PB, maybe 7. I have not played many US courses and none around NY. My UK top 20 would not be far off the standard ones, I think there are lesser courses I would want to play on lists but rationally I know some of them have deficiences. I would imagine PB because of the great holes must belong in the world 25. On the same rationale SH does not.

[Ronald Montesano]

Patrick Mucci,

Is it a CONSISTENTLY great course?  If so, how do the inland holes complement the ocean-side ones?  What is there that is subtle and architecturally great about the inland holes or about any of the undervalued (as indicated in this thread) elements of the course?

Thanks for your input.