Is Pebble Beach overrated ?

[Jerry Kluger]

Bogey: The question is if 8 out of 18 holes are world class does that make it one of the 10 best in the world - I don't think that meets the test.  Go up the coast and what do we have at Pacific Dunes - is it better - I will be there in May and perhaps I will then know the answer, but for now, 8 out of 18 just doesn't make it for me. 

Cary: You are the first person I know of who finds the inconsistencies of Poa greens a positive feature.  Be honest, you love the course because you've picked out the house you want overlooking the course and the ocean.

[Tom Birkert]

Having played it only once I was underwhelmed, although it's still a great course. I personally feel it's too high in the rankings compared to other courses I have played in the US (I would argue that Oakmont, Merion and NGLA are better courses).

I thought the 1st was a weak hole. I know changes have been made in the past couple of years and am looking forward to seeing how they impact on the course when I play it at the start of March.

This trip I hope to play Cypress Point after Pebble - last time we played Cypress Point first and pretty much anything after that is going to suffer in comparison.

[Jud_T]

Jerry,

You're batting average at Pac Dunes will definitely be much higher than 8/18....Please report back....

[Mike Hendren]

Jerry, for me (and I acknowledge this is a contrary opinion) Pacific Dunes wanes after the 14th.  The 15th through 17th are a letdown and the 18th's penal nature is a juxtaposition with the balance of the golf course.  That's not to say it's not a great golf course - I have it 9th in my personal top 25 posted elsewhere.  

By comparison, I love the way the architect of Pebble Beach gives you an early glimpse of the sea, delivers you out onto a promentory, plays along the coast, heads directly away from it and then directs you back right at it before finishing along side it.  I believe it was Tom Doak who said a great routing reflects the path one would naturally take when walking a piece of property.  If so, Pebble's a great routing.  

The strength of Pebble Beach is not only the world class golf holes, but the remaining excellent holes, excepting the 1st though even the first has merit in that it moves one quickly from the "resort" out into nature.  

In the old split ten rounds between Pebble Beach and Pacific Dunes, I'd play Pebble Beach 7 or 8 times, money aside.  Understand - that's my opinion and I've been known to be wrong more than a couple of times yearly.

Kindest regards,

Mike

[Ronald Montesano]

Pacific Dunes wanes after the 14th.  The 15th through 17th are a letdown and the 18th's penal nature is a juxtaposition with the balance of the golf course.    

No thread-jacking...If you disagree with this assessment of Packy Dunes, start your own thread...this must remain purely and unadulteratedly Pebbly Beachy.

[Tim Nugent]

Ron, sorry to be blunt but  you're just going to have to buck-up and go play it, then play it again.  Now you can anwer your own questions.  You shouldn't waste your time and ours opining on any course you haven't seen in person.

[Ronald Montesano]

Since I won't be playing Pebble any time soon, I'll reiterate my request for input on the final three greens/putting surfaces.  Any thought/opinions/evidence on their worth?

[Adam Clayman]

As with most discussions on this subject I will once again point out the nature of an ebb and a flow. The critics that rate a course hole by hole, often miss the whole.  Pebble's (Old) flow is marvelous. The sequences are like chapters in a book.
That being said the new 5th is a cancer on the routing. I could give a rat's patoutie if its along the clove. That cove is Jinxed. People have died there and others have fallen down the cliff. The old hole was vastly superior in it's mojo and green site. Also, the way the route introduced you to the that wide vista of #6 and 14 fairway was magical in a way that whetted the golfing glands. Now, not so much.

Adrian'

"I thought the 1st was 5/10 and could be anywhere, 2nd quite nice say 7/10, 3rd was dull 5/10, 4 I liked the quiirky green 8/10, 5 was the old hole another could be anywhere 5/10. 6 i think i did not rate but my opinion on this hole not being good seems monority, I did not like the blindness, the skyline.. I saw no ocean so 6/10 7-10 wow all 10/10. 11 is say 6/10 12 I thought was too narrow a green 5/10, 13 was ok 7/10 14 I did not like at all 5/10, 15 is ok but could be anywhere 6/10, 16 not bad 7/10, 17 was a 5/10 for me (a real dissapointment) 18 was wow. My opinion might change with mutiple plays, perhaps I missed good bits in the holes ive rated lowly. Overall my dissapointment was in the blandness of many holes (too many), perhaps I expected too much with PB and was not expecting so much out of SH."

#1 could not be anywhere. The green site is WAY better than anyone gives it credit. The drop off behind, does create a mini skyline effect, while the left side gently transitions from chipping area to green at grade. The deep right hand bunkers are as good as deep green side bunkers get. The fronting left bunker creates all the strategy anyone could design.

Did you know #3 was one of Mackezie's favorties? Dull, Hardly. The new fairway bunker there is a joke and as necessary as teets on a bull.
#11 is one of the more subtle holes with the potential for oodles of decisions to be made and one of the smallest and most sneakily sloped greens on the course.

#14 is just plain a great hole. All that room and your butt is puckered on every swing. The green, a unique design built by an artist, is surreal it's ability to create numbers from 4 to 24. Some of the most creative putting opportunities exist when the pin is placed right side.

Ronald. 16 green and it's surrounds is a bery special place,. The tilted plate green requires a delicate touch and has it's own special nuances and tendency's, not only on approach, but also when on.
#17 is hardly visible as an hourglass when playing. The left pin provides an amazing heroic opportunity, while the right might appear mundane, it's tricky to make two, even when close.

#18 is much more than the fronting bunker. Temptations and butt puckering opportunities are frequently felt, but only if you're playing it correctly. Also, The hole identifies a thinking golfer, over a bomb and gouger in ways few modern holes can or ever will.
As for the green, it is tricky and takes a long time to learn all of it's nuances. Compared to the 18h at Merion, it's got more character. Both subtle and severe.

[JESII]

#18 is much more than the fronting bunker. Temptations and butt puckering opportunities are frequently felt, but only if you're playing it correctly. Also, The hole identifies a thinking golfer, over a bomb and gouger in ways few modern holes can or ever will.
As for the green, it is tricky and takes a long time to learn all of it's nuances. Compared to the 18h at Merion, it's got more character. Both subtle and severe.

Alot of good stuff here Adam, but you might have gone overboard with #18...

For starters, perhaps you could tell me how guile will beat the bomber on this hole if each hit good shots...obviously, if the bomber hits a big hook he's in trouble, but so would the thinker...

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adam- In some ways its good that we all see different things in a golf course. Remember I only played the course once, although I remember my score and ever single shot I played and it was January 1989!  and I do not remember every shot at Spyglass, played the day before. Clearly though there is a common thing here that many people are underwhelmed by PB and its usually the same reason, ie; duller nature of say half the holes and perhaps more comes out with mutiple play.

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin:

I read what you posted to my comments ... a few rebuttals, with all respect, are in order.

You say plenty of courses have small greens -- OK. Name them that are better than PB and are located alongside such an unpredictable landscape like PB's. You keep on harping about the course being in the top 10 -- I never personally said it should be that high -- but from your own comments one would be led to believe that PB is fortunate to be rated among the top 50 courses worldwide and that's its reputation is gleaned solely from having hosted numerous major events.

You also say erroneously, I might add, that the greens are not "awe inspiring" designs -- then it's more than likely you played the course when shoulder turns were needed to get the ball to the hole and as a result all of the movements that they do contain would be rendered at a far lesser danger element. Try making a curling putt on those surfaces when the wind is blowing and you have your work cut out for you.

You also need to see the course when it is fully prepared with all defenses brought to bear when a big time event happens. The winter PGA Tour event only obscures so much of what PB is about. I can say this with relative certainty -- most courses don't have the wide degree by which PB can be about when prepared to the fullest,

 
 




  
 
 

[Matt_Ward]

Adrian:

I respect your opinion but you are misguided, with all respect, if you see Spylass being beyond Pebble. I concede if SH had more holes like the first five you'd have a better case but PB is just a real SOB when conditons turn tough. Wind is just one element that is tempered once you hit the trees at SH as opposed to the exposure that PB provides.

Adrian, playing the course in a cart rob you of so much. PB needs to be played a few times but you need to play the course when it's not plodding because of slow turf conditions. Then the greens and all the element tied to getting around them becomes more of a thrill ride -- even on the inner holes away from the ocean.

[Sean Leary]

Sully,

If I remember correctly you "only" played it during the 99 US Am, correct? You likely are the only one who has played it under such conditions. What were the weather/conditions like?

I disagree with Adam's views on 5, and his thoughts that the course changes have significantly hurt it in the rankings, but agree with a lot of the rest he has to say.

In my mind, it may not be the equal of Cypress Point, but its damn close. I put it at that next level with the RCD's, Merion's, Pacific Dunes and Prairie Dunes of the world. I have played it a half dozen times, the first time in 1999 before I became interested in architecture. It was then and is still now almost a religious experience. Those who denigrate it seem to me to be looking for a reason to knock it down. I believe that, like Cypress Point down the road, the sum significantly exceeds the parts.

[JESII]

Sean,

Correct, including a practice round the day before...so twice total.

Weather was nice - cool for late August - but low-to-mid 60's and only a mild wind - hurting and off the water on 18, but less than one club.

Greens were firm enough that we left only minimal ball marks and they were good speed but not overly fast compared to east coast bent grass. Fairways seemed softer. Drives didn't plug, but we didn't get much roll to speak of. Rough was high and thick...what was the burnt orange color on our shoes afterwards? Some sort of pollen I figured but don't know.

I started on 10 in the tournament so lost some of the flow everyone speaks of, but in the practice round I remember thinking #1 seemed like it should be in Myrtle Beach or Hilton Head and with the only real value being that it gets you away from the resort well, all I can say is OK.

Anyway, I will admit to going there with high expectations, maybe unreasonably high...I've always admitted that. The summer of 99 is when it went up to #2 correct? I was caddying at Pine Valley at the time and had just won the Hugh Wilson at Merion and Pebble didn't live up to the hype. Several great holes and several mundane. I don't think Pine Valley, Merion, RCD or Shinnecock have as many mundane holes combined as Pebble does on its own...but the sum may very well be greater than the parts but only someone with a long range of experiences at a course can make those judgements.

I would love to hear a debate of #4. Isn't it the only "short" 4 there? It seemed lacking to me but several people admire it. How does it compare to the short 4's at Cypress? I think high quality short 4's are a key to this level of course.

[Ian Andrew]

Adam,

I enjoyed your comments very much.


To all,

I don’t think that it’s over-rated, I just happen to rate it a little lower than others do.

When you look at Royal County Down, Cypress Point and many of the other greatest courses, they all also have holes that people question for quality. There are so many spectacular holes and so much to admire that it is worthy of being discussed when you look at the greatest courses.

I played it this spring for the third time and I must admit I liked it more than the previous two. I wonder if I wanted too much on previous visits, or if I simply saw more small details of merit the third time through.

[ed_getka]

Ian,
    I would be interested in hearing what some of those small details of merit are if you have time.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian:

I respect your opinion but you are misguided, with all respect, if you see Spylass being beyond Pebble. I concede if SH had more holes like the first five you'd have a better case but PB is just a real SOB when conditons turn tough. Wind is just one element that is tempered once you hit the trees at SH as opposed to the exposure that PB provides.

Adrian, playing the course in a cart rob you of so much. PB needs to be played a few times but you need to play the course when it's not plodding because of slow turf conditions. Then the greens and all the element tied to getting around them becomes more of a thrill ride -- even on the inner holes away from the ocean.

Matt I think that a good amount of people do not see PB so high because of how they see the majority of holes, some people see the great holes and thats enough and in many ways they might be right to rate it so high, if you picked the world best 50 holes PB might be the course with the most entries. I saw it more as a whole, but its an opinion, but with more plays maybe 1,3,5,6,11,15, get better...12 needs a redo IMO, that tee to green elevation should yield better. Sorry dont like 14 and 17 from the tee looks like a stick versus the sky. TBH I think a number of holes dont make the best use of the LAND.

[Adam Clayman]

Ian, Thanx.

Sully, #4 is an interesting hole. The cross bunker makes it intimidating for the average player, while the temptation to get as close as possible for the better player, must be present. (I wouldn't know, other than having played from the forward tees once and was quite tempted.) The narrow sloped green, with cliffs right, and, well bunkered left, is a perfect question to ask for the shot length, and, at that point in the round. I can see where an initial reaction might be a let down, because you're itching to get near the water and while this holes runs adjacent, it is still only Stillwater Cove. Not exactly what one might expect from an ocean hole expectation perspective.

The old Tag on PB was to score early and the fourth provides that opportunity.

Sean, I assume you had played the old fifth? If not, it's a shame because it was one of those holes that could cause a lot of emotion. From turning your back on the ocean, after only playing one hole along side of it, to the trees dictating the shot shape. It seemed odd at first play, until after you had played it, and wanted another crack at it. Mostly because the green was pure wicked genius. There is however no doubt about the transition to the 6th hole from up top the hill. Walking around that treed property, stopping to get a drink of water and then having the start of heaven open up in front of you, is as memorable a feeling as one can have on a golf course.

Adrian's comment about remembering every hole from one play 20 years ago is most telling. Especially since he rode in a cart and still remembered it all.

I like Spy and understand very well why people might prefer it to Pebble. I just don't think it stacks up architecturally because of it's routing. If Spy had stayed with the first five hole theme, it would rival any course in the world. The forest holes each have merit.

BTW, The old fifteenth at PB was a wonderful respite between sequences that requires a rest. Now, it's just another way to turn off the average golfer, since he's likely been so beat up for most of the round.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian's comment about remembering every hole from one play 20 years ago is most telling. Especially since he rode in a cart and still remembered it all.

1st Hole- 3 wood 9 iron to 12 feetpin high left, putted 8 feet past missed the return 5 +1
Hole 2 - Driver, 5 iron to front 60 ft putt but 3 putted 5 +1
Hole 3 - 3 wood wedge to 3 foot 1 putt Even
Hole 4 - 5 wood Sand wedge to 2 feet but behind the hole, three putted +1 ( I shoud have been -4)
Hole 5 - 6 iron long, chipped bk but poor chip holed huge putt maybe 40 feet +1 (felt a bit better now)
Hole 6 - Driver caught in rough up left side, hit a 5 wood up left side about even with green chipped to 6 feet missed +1
Hole 7 - knock down 9 iron, caught it fat (very annoying) into front bunker, pin was close to the front unded up with a scrappy 4 +2
Hole 8 - cant remember what I hit off the tee, but hit 4 iron into the green to 12 feet holed putt +1
Hole 9 - Driver into fairway bunker, sand wedge stilll needed 6 iron 3 rd shot, tugged it into bunker.. grubby 6 +3
Hole 10 - Driver, carved second shot, wood I think neary on beach, poor pitch, 3 putts.. even grubbier 6 +5
Hole 11- Driver, up the right hand side, sand wedge over the trap stone dead. +4
Hole 12- 3 iron, bit long, chipped back to 3 feet holed putt +4
Hole 13- Drive and cant remember what iron to about 15 feet but behind the hole, lagged a two putt +4
Hole 14- Drive hooked into left rough, 7 iron back into play, 5 iron onto front of green but it rolled back, two putts by hoing second putt from 10 ft
Hole 15- Great Drive, poor pitch, ran to the back. three putts, +5
Hole 16- Good Drive, 8 iron ran to the back fringe, putted from fringe up to 2 feet +5
Hole 17- 6 iron, rback right bit long, stubbed chip, 3 putts over that sleeping poiceman +7
Hole 18- Drive out right side of fairway, 5 wood for position, 8 iron to fringe left, chipped to 3 feet missed it  80.
Thats how well I remember it!!!

[Mac Plumart]

Adrian...

For real, this was a course you played 20 years ago and only once!!!!

And you said you were extremely disappointed in it!!!

I think I am impressed with your memory...but perhaps this course is pretty special and makes it easy to remember?

Thoughts?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mac- PB is obviously special, the same as if you came over and played TOC, you would remember it. PB is not a bad course dont get me wrong, I think I was expecting too much, the greens were very fast but 100% Poa, the tees were tiny and very worn, that I could forget though, I geniuenly found the first hole very resorty and i had never seen a pic of it or on tv, and I never really thought any of the holes were great except for the ocean vista holes. PB underwhelmed SH overwhelmed. I cant remember much about my round at Spyglass though.

[Bill_McBride]

Mac- PB is obviously special, the same as if you came over and played TOC, you would remember it. PB is not a bad course dont get me wrong, I think I was expecting too much, the greens were very fast but 100% Poa, the tees were tiny and very worn, that I could forget though, I geniuenly found the first hole very resorty and i had never seen a pic of it or on tv, and I never really thought any of the holes were great except for the ocean vista holes. PB underwhelmed SH overwhelmed. I cant remember much about my round at Spyglass though.

Over the years I have played Pebble Beach a dozen times and Spyglass 5 or 6.  Once you leave  the dunes at Spyglass I can't remember much of anything.  (Of course the last time for either was in April 1978!)   But that says a lot about Pebble to me, Adrian and I both clearly remember the holes at Pebble from 1978, although 11-13 kind of run together.   

I think the clever figure-8 routing that gets 8 (now 9) holes on the cliffside is pretty amazing and should be one of the real positives about Pebble Beach.

I liked it a lot better before the continuous concrete cart paths with curbs which I have seen but not played.  Jeez.   

[Matt_Ward]

Adrian:

Thanks for your comments -- good to read about your details when you played PB.

However, SH is not PB quality -- the ocean holes you get for the first five there at SH get plenty of mention, as they should, but the rest of the forest holes are good holes but not so special to merit even a top 100 placement. Why? The quality of other new courses that have opened in the last ten years are more consistent and more compelling in my mind.

Adrian, I don't know if PB was firm and fast when you played it -- it makes a huge difference if it does. When it plays slow and predictable because balls don't bounce anywhere it's easier to score and the nature of the contours on the greens and the skills needed to chip'n putt when you miss one become far less so.

I don't doubt the 1st hole is a nothing hole. But each hole from that point begins to build and build before you get to the ocean holes with #4 -- a superb short hole that way too often gets lost in the sauce of things.

Another thing -- the idea that a great course must have 18 bulletproof holes which are equal to one another is a fallacy of major proportion. A golf course can provide ups and downs -- the issue is whether the ups more than cover any deficiency -- in my mind, PB does that -- although I am quick to say that a top ten placement as demonstrated by the various major golf mags is way too generous. Something lower would be more in keeping with reality.

Disagree with you big time on #14 -- just a stellar hole. One of the best par-5 holes in all of golf. Curious by your comment -- make better usage of the land. You need to explain that one to me.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Going a bit O/T, could this course be bettered if its routing was the same 1-8, but 9 was 13 in reverse, 10 say 12 in reverse, 11 then plays the other way back to the ocean, would the current 9th and 10th in reverse be as good, worse or better played. It certainy would appear the other three holes were better.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Matt- I played there Jan 1989, could even have been eary feb, it was after the GCSAA conference in Anaheim. I dont think it was really F&F but it was not damp either. At the time i was 3 handicap and I found it very easy as a course though i had lots of putts, far easier than Spyglass. I also played Spanish Bay on the moring I played PB, which i enjoyed.
I did like the 4th. My confusion with PB was it had a number of great holes mixed with a number of average ones. Spyglass had those first great 5 (PB has 6 IMO) but Spyglass' other 13 holes were better than the 12 lesser holes, but whilst I think I do take a lot in even in one round there are things to learn about a course and maybe with more rounds I could love the 3rd more ect.
The routing as is.. 12 should be a good short hole, the elevation tee to green should mean you see everything, the backdrops okay, I think the target needs to be easier. 17 needs to be more visible, I would need to really think about that, perhaps the green moving nearer the ocean to the left, I dont remember an ocean view when you are on this green, am i wrong? When we played it was getting near the end of the day, maybe I was more concerned with finishing.