[Adam Clayman]

Tom, Re 12 green.

The rear left bunker seems like it would be more in play if the green were extended all the way to it. Similar to the seventh, where the bunker's position is internal.

Ed, I disagree about the handicap level you've assigned to be able to figure it out. It has nothing to do with how well one executes on other courses, it all has to do with the creativity and awareness level.

i.e. One of our poster was on the Army team. His first round at Ballyneal he tried to play golf the way he plays it elsewhere. By his last round, in a considerable gale, he had learned to lower his trajectory and distance control utilizing the firm canvas to it's utmost. He shot a 74 which was as good as a course record that day.

Kyle, You said a guy could shoot 4 under and be upset. 4 under is the course record and many pros have played there. 

[ed_getka]

Adam,
   I'm not saying you have to be a low handicapper to figure it out. I think most GCA'ers could figure out most of Ballyneal with enough exposure to it. What I am saying is that assuming one HAS figured out the hole given the day's pin position I don't think many golfers with greater than a 5 handicap have enough game to get the ball where it needs to be. That is my initial impression after only 2 days at Ballyneal.
   I have played about 12 rounds at Crystal Downs and still learn something new every time I go there. I feel Ballyneal probably requires many rounds to figure it out also.

Tom,
    Thanks for the detailed example. I look forward to the next time I get to unravel some more of the course. Happy New Year.

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle, You said a guy could shoot 4 under and be upset. 4 under is the course record and many pros have played there. 

I'm aware of that. But, I repeat, if several putts were missed from short range, the pro might be pissed he didn't set the record even lower istead of merely tying the old mark. Hence, attitude is everything.

[Tom_Doak]

What I am saying is that assuming one HAS figured out the hole given the day's pin position I don't think many golfers with greater than a 5 handicap have enough game to get the ball where it needs to be. That is my initial impression after only 2 days at Ballyneal.

Tom,
    Thanks for the detailed example. I look forward to the next time I get to unravel some more of the course. Happy New Year.

Ed:

I agree with you, to a point.  I think if you want to just play defensively, and really know the course, there are ways for a 10-handicap to make a steady par on nearly every hole, unless the flag is in a particularly tough position.  [There will probably be 3-4 of those per round, where it's going to take a great up and down to make par, if you don't hit a great approach shot.]  Then, of course, the wind might be blowing more than normal.

[Kyle Henderson]

What I am saying is that assuming one HAS figured out the hole given the day's pin position I don't think many golfers with greater than a 5 handicap have enough game to get the ball where it needs to be. That is my initial impression after only 2 days at Ballyneal.

Most golfers can't get their ball where it needs to be on any golf course. Again, acknowledgeing I've never played Ballyneal in a gale, I've seen players with even less skills than myself have a ton of fun during rounds there.  While they may make a few big scores when they get out of position, their opponent may also struggle. It's a match play course.

Would you prefer to hit a chip and three putts when you approach the green from the wrong side or would you rather find yourself trying to hit a flop shot out of thick rough over a tiny greenside pond onto a surface that's flat as a pool table?

The score may be the same but the result is not, IMHO.

[Kyle Henderson]

Ed:

I think it would take a long time to figure out all of the possibilities for all of the different hole locations.  I'm not even sure I have figured them all out yet ... there are a lot of features that were just THERE, that aren't really designed at all, and I'm not sure I was clever enough to figure them all out while we were building the course.

I'll give you just one example ... #12, one of my favorite holes.  The right half of the green has two equally difficult high-plateau hole locations separated by a ridge; the left of the green is in a deep trough.  The most common complaint is that if you are on the right half of the green, putting toward a hole cut in the lower left half, the putt is "impossible" and may go several feet past the hole.  I played there last summer with a fellow architect who four-putted that green after two relatively good shots, and I am sure he does not see it kindly.

So, when the flag is on the left, if you know the course, you are just STUPID to hit the ball in the right half of the green.  You would be much better off missing the green short and left; you could still putt from there straight up the trough.  From the middle of the green back, the left edge of the green curls back upwards toward the next tee, and there's a fair amount of short grass up the bank, so you can deliberately miss to the left a bit and the ball will probably come back down toward the hole, instead of sticking up on the tier if you miss right.  And if you do miss on the right half of the green, and the hole is not FRONT left [in which case you should have missed short], you can putt up around the bowl and feed it back to the hole, instead of trying to stop the putt going down the hill.  My fellow architect left his ball three feet above the hole on the right front and had to putt straight down the drop, went ten feet by, hit a sloppy second putt past the hole, and missed a shortie.

Now, if the flag is in the right half of the green, it will take a very good approach to get there ... exactly the shot my friend hit when he didn't want to.    If you don't hit a good drive on the left shelf of the fairway, the angle to get to the right-hand pins is very difficult, and you'll need a bit of help from the wind to stay up there.  [But, if you don't have help from the wind, it should have been easier to keep your drive on the left.]  And it's easily possible to misjudge a putt from the low left of the green to the upper tiers, because of the pronounced elevation change.  Some would call that Mickey Mouse; I call it the main defense of a 370-yard par-4.

The thing is, it's the left-hand hole locations [the easy ones] which people complain most vehemently about, but there are plenty of backstops in play there and plenty of bail-out room to avoid the impossible putt.

And even mid-handicappers will be hitting short clubs into the 12th green unless they REALLY botched their tee shot, especially if their playing from a forward set of tees to carry the trouble and keep their ball to the left.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
   Thanks for the feedback. I'll just have to keep going back and find those spots.

Kyle,
    I had a great time at Ballyneal so please don't think my questions have anything to do with having fun on the course. Of course most golfers can't hit the exact spot they are aiming for, but knowing where you can get away with a miss makes a huge difference when you are playing courses of this caliber. I'm pretty sure I could compete against a 5 handicap at Rustic with my 10 and beat them straight up if it was their first time there. I suspect the same would happen at Ballyneal with a first time 5 against an experienced Ballyneal 10. It is not that the 10 hits better shots than the 5, but the 10 with course knowledge knows what to stay away from and what to take advantage of.

[ed_getka]

Tom,
    I forgot to ask earlier. Was #9 green site influenced by Painswick at all? It doesn't have the drop off like Painswick, but as soon as I walked up the first time and saw the green down in that depression Painswick immediately popped into my mind.

[Tom_Doak]

Ed:

Nope, never thought of Painswick there. 

I can't remember if I saw Painswick BEFORE we built that green at Ballyneal, or after; it was the first green we built.  Dan Proctor actually built that one.  The dip in front and to the right were there, of course.  The entire site was a big punchbowl; we created the back tier by digging the material out of the back bunkers.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom,
    I forgot to ask earlier. Was #9 green site influenced by Painswick at all? It doesn't have the drop off like Painswick, but as soon as I walked up the first time and saw the green down in that depression Painswick immediately popped into my mind.

Ed, which green at Painswick?  (I haven't seen Ballyneal yet)

[Brad Swanson]

Kyle, You said a guy could shoot 4 under and be upset. 4 under is the course record and many pros have played there. 

I find this  a little surprising Adam.  At Jim Colton's inaugural Ballyznizzle Cup, a number of participants went pretty low relative to their handicaps.  Heck, even I was a conservative match play -2 through 16 on day 2 before we high tailed it in to try and catch the Watson/Cink playoff at the Open.  Either the course was playing easy (it wasn't very windy) or maybe it was the Ballynizzle vibe.  I think the course has a high scoring delta potential, though, which makes it great in my mind as I saw both ends of that spectrum in completely different wind conditions on different days.

[Scott Szabo]

Brad,

2-under through 16 is quite an accomplishment.  You must be quite a golfer.  The more you play Ballyneal the more you'll appreciate that score.

I have gone round Ballyneal with quite a few scratch golfers who have never come close to breaking par.    I wouldn't think the wind would have too much to do with scoring, unless it is blowing quite heavily.  Pin placement would dictate scoring more than the wind, in my opinion.

My thoughts on Ballyneal are that is is not too difficult to get around, but it is difficult to get the ball in the hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Brad:

Two under through 16, wind in your face coming home = a conservative even par, or maybe even +1. 

More to the point, I think it is VERY possible for most players to shoot their handicap or better if they manage the course well.  But I think it gets harder to do it as you get closer to scratch, or certainly if you are a +4 golfer to shoot -4 consistently.

That would be indicative of a low slope rating, or even a negative slope rating.  But that doesn't mean the course is easy.

[Kalen Braley]

One of the reasons why I think higher cappers can score decent at Ballyneal is because the almost complete lack of the dreaded lost ball/OB/water hazard penalties that can cause scores to sky rocket.  For example on the 4th hole I hit my 2nd shot beyond wild and it actually went over the big dune to the right of the fairway...(I know it was an awful shot).  But I found my ball, hit a decent recovery and was still able to save a bogey...which is terrific by my standards.

I hit many balls off the maintained stuff in my 27 holes there, but didn't lose one ball and more importantly was still able to play a decent recovery shot to save bogey or double bogey at worse instead of making the dreaded snowmen/huge numbers.

P.S. It probably helps that despite my poor play otherwise, putting is the best part of my game and I can't even recall having had 1 3 putt the entire 27 holes.

[Kyle Henderson]

Brad,

2-under through 16 is quite an accomplishment.  You must be quite a golfer.  The more you play Ballyneal the more you'll appreciate that score.

And his partner for that round played in the mid-Am at Bandon Dunes. Needless to say, his opponents (Wyatt Halliday and I) were toast.

[Troy Alderson]

Hi Don,

Great to see your post on here.  I admire that you are willing to adjust your management style to fit the needs of the golf course by using your head and eyes and not the computer.  I have learned a lot since starting at Reames GCC in Klamath Falls.  I am spending a lot of time hand watering and learning how little water turf needs to satisfy the members.  Rich and I have very understanding members regarding irrigating the turf and the color green.  They do understand that if there are no dry spots on the golf courrse then we are overwatering.  Don't get me wrong though, the members still want a green golf course, but they know we have a weak irrigaiton system that they are not willing to replace just yet.

Your irrigation methods that you showed me in Bend is fantastic and a great place to start the program.  Adjustments must be made from observations on the golf course by the superintendent.  The deep and infrequent method number crunching at the desk gives you and me the starting point and we adjust the program to fit the micro-site on the golf course.

I believe that Reames GCC is the best players course in the area, beating out The Running Y.  We have the best turf conditions because we do not overwater.  Though I would like to see Rich change to a deep and infrequent irrigation method, he knows how the irrigation system operates and how much water the turf needs to survive.  And Rich is an old school superintendent with a Vari-time central controler and 9 holes of quick couplers with a night watertech.  We get it done and the way a golf course is meant to be, IMHO.

Troy

[Scott Szabo]

Brad:


More to the point, I think it is VERY possible for most players to shoot their handicap or better if they manage the course well.  But I think it gets harder to do it as you get closer to scratch, or certainly if you are a +4 golfer to shoot -4 consistently.

That would be indicative of a low slope rating, or even a negative slope rating.  But that doesn't mean the course is easy.

I couldn't agree more. 

I've only played Ballyneal, but Tom, is that indicative of your design philosophy?

[Tom_Doak]

Scott:

That's generally what I'm hoping for, although not every client wants it to be that way.

I would say that Ballyneal and The Rawls Course and St. Andrews Beach are probably the best examples of that ideal that we've built so far.  Old Macdonald might be another; I haven't played it enough yet to judge that [although, come to think of it, I've already played Old Macdonald more than The Rawls or St. Andrews Beach  ]

[Dave McCollum]

Really a great thread.  Fascinating to a layman.

I did have a couple of dumb questions about maintenance.  It looked like the  shot of the #7 green at Ballyneal was walk mowed.  Is that required because of the contouring?  Last fall I played another of TD’s courses, Rock Creek CC, that had some dramatic interior contouring on the greens, but was mowed by a triplex or some riding mower that seemed to scalp the ridges or high points of many of the contours.  I know it is a new course that has to mature and evolve, but I wondered at the time how much maintenance practices figure into designing green features?  

The scalping in no way diminished the fun I had playing this wonderful course.  The greens were really fun even for the high handicappers that I played with.  They required your full attention as I found out on #16 where I hit the approach short--front right.  I hit what I thought was a good chip and run to the hole back left and ran it off the back of the green into the deep dip behind the green.  It was a poor read and a bonehead play enjoyed immensely by my opponent.

[Tom_Doak]

Dave:

They do walk-mow the greens at Ballyneal.  I don't think the contours dictate that choice, although there are certainly some severe ones that would be easy to scalp.  There is generally plenty of short grass around the greens to turn around a triplex, although there are some places where the bunkers would make it difficult.

Those greens are fescue, and I know that in Bandon, Ken Nice is walk-mowing Old Macdonald's greens [in spite of their size] because a hydraulic leak from a triplex caused him some big problems on one of the other courses ... the fescue does not recover well from a hydraulic leak, and re-sodding a line across the green and getting it to be seamless is not so easy.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,

Can't they use a product like Greenscare, which is a biodegradable hydraulic fluid, in their triplex mowers?

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

Not my subject of expertise, but I will pass on the recommendation.  I am sure there are some crew members at Old Macdonald who would prefer to ride a triplex around those greens!

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()