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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Fishers Island update)
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2010, 07:27:56 PM »
Pat-

While I agree that the 16th green at FI doesn't have nearly the same scary internal contours as the 6th at NGLA, it still has plenty of teeth.  

I didn't say that it didn't.

What I did say was that the configuration of the greens is entirely different.


The day I played it this summer, the hole played down wind (prevailing wind) and the pin was cut on the back right of the green. 3 of the 4 players in my group (including me) hit it over the green and the 4th player was short right of the green.  The 3 of us who were over the green all pitched the ball on the green, only to watch it run off the green down into the right hand bunker.  The only person who managed to make bogey was the guy who was short of the green on his tee shot.  The 3 of us who hit it over the green all made 5.

By the way, 2 of the 3 of us who hit it over the green and proceeded to make 5 were single digit handicaps (the exception being me).


Jim Thornton

Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Fishers Island update)
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2010, 08:34:06 PM »
Pat-

Could you kindly elaborate on your point that the 16th green at FI is "entirely different" than the 6th green at NGLA?

Thanks-

Jim

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Fishers Island update)
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2010, 08:40:51 PM »
Jim,

Are there any pronounced or unusual contours in the 16th at FI ?

Is the 6th at NGLA more angular to the line of play ?

Which green has more practical or playable "depth" ?

Which green is more adept at "feeding" balls to the surrounding bunkers ?

Jim Thornton

Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Fishers Island update)
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2010, 09:12:30 PM »
Pat-

Before I answer, a couple of disclaimers.  First, I'm a high handicap player, so my ability to execute certain shots would certainly be different than yours.  Second, I've played NGLA twice and FI once, so I've had much less experience than yourself.  With that being said, here are my answers:

1.  The 6th green at NGLA certainly has more pronounced and unusual internal contours than the 16th at FI, however, the 16th at FI is still quite capable of striking fear in the heart of any player that gets out of position.  Anybody who misses long on that green (which is not hard to do with a fronting bunker and prevailing downwind conditions) will struggle mightily to make par.  The 16th at FI has a severe back to front and left to right slope if my memory serves me correctly.

2. I don't recall the 6th at NGLA being more angular to the line of play, but I'll take your word for it as you've played it far more times than I.  From my perspective, both holes played 140-150 yards, slightly down hill, with fronting bunkers and difficult putting surfaces.

3.  I suppose the 16th at FI has more playable depth, but it might be splitting hairs a bit.  I would think the 6th at NGLA is larger in terms of square footage, but plays smaller due to the "greens within a green" concept.

4.  I'll call this one a tie as I think the 16th at FI was plenty adept at feeding balls into that right hand bunker.  As I mentioned in my earlier post, 3 of the 4 players in my group saw our pitches hit the green only to feed into that bunker.

There's my armchair analysis, but take it with a grain of salt since I'm sure you know both of those greens like the back of your hand.

Jim
« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 10:14:11 PM by Jim Thornton »

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Fishers Island update)
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2010, 02:59:18 AM »
Friars Head (FH) was the very first Coore and Crenshaw (C&C) course I got to experience and I came away very impressed.

Given the land on which the majority of the course is designed (ie: farmland) - they did a sterling job to transition the routing to and in and amongst the dunes. FH is significantly about the approach shots into the greens for mine with usually a lone bunker or set of bunkers protecting the “aggressive line” and an unprotected fallaway area allowing those that choose a “safer line” - a chance of recovery with a creative and sharp short game.

The F9 is on most of the flat terrain but you wouldn’t expect that with the first which has a steep rise up to the green. The second has a wonderful vista across the layout and once you get down onto the flats you are confronted with some very thoughtful strategic holes.

The B9 has much more topography changes with the “dune” holes from the 14th through to the finish next to Long Island Sound the most memorable. An interesting feature of FH is that the short holes are pretty much all in different directions.

All the C&C courses I saw are immeasurably “playable” for all levels of golfers – choose the tee that suits your abilities and away you go.

Holes I noted:
5th = a short P4 of around 320yds with a centreline bunker plus a few others up on the right off the drive. I took driver and was able to caress one up to quite close to the boomerang shaped green. I used a putter and was not able to get it up’n’down but one could use any number of options around the green – a common theme at FH and a great short P4.

6th =  This dogleg left P4 of around 400yds was all about choosing if one wanted to take an aggressive line or not off the tee. The left side is protected by deep bunkers and a successful drive would leave one with no more than a relatively short iron into the green. The green itself is elevated and repels balls into a collection area for weak shots in.

7th = this relatively short uphill P5 of around 510yds is all about angles and a wicked green site. Again, one is asked to make choices off the tee - flirt with the angle on the shorter but well bunkered right side or take the longer and safer left route to the hole. The green itself has at least three tiers and lovely little shelves.


10th = is a gem of a P3 hole from 120 to 200yds. Hit it over a mound to a relatively blind green. Once there you find a green site that rivals those at TOC – it’s huge and a fun hole with dunes surrounding it. I think the green is about 60yds long by 20yds wide !

14th = is a testing P5 at over 530yds that progressively narrows all the way to the hole with a green tucked up on a small ridge close to where two dunes meet. It is the start of an amazing collection of dune holes.

15th = is one of the best holes I saw on my trip. A downhill P4 of around 485yds that has a slightly angled drive through a natural valley. The green site is tucked in close to the vegetation again on a small ridge with a gully protecting a weak shot in.


FH has an interesting clubhouse to complement the course and you feel a world away once within the gates of the facility.

C&C do a superb job in transitioning you from the flats to the dunes and are masters at creating “options” around the greensites based on what I’ve seen. At FH C&C have created greens that aren’t overbearing on the land in which they sit but provide enough movement and certainly create interest for those that like a challenge. Dare I say it - in that I feel they are better at this aspect of GCA than most of their modern day contempories ?

Other NY based courses I saw on my trip included:
-   Garden City
-   Winged Foot (West) + (East)
-   Quaker Ridge
-   Bethpage
-   Sebonack
-   Maidstone

I’d be happy to continue some reviews of these at a later stage when I get an opportunity and if the interest is there from GCAers ?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 06:50:06 PM by Kevin Pallier »

Mark_F

Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Friars Head update)
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2010, 05:38:48 AM »
Kevin,

Nice notes and a wrap-up of each course.

I certainly hope, however, that you have more than two images each for WF East, Quaker Ridge and garden City, in particular.

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Friars Head update)
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2010, 05:54:09 AM »
I, for one, would LOVE to see more pics of FH as this have changed so much from when I was there 7-8 years ago! What a place!
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Friars Head update)
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2010, 08:31:33 AM »
I'm on board...I live across the state from these fine golf course and have not seen most of them first hand.  I've walked Shinny and Bethpage during US Opens, but that's the extent of my exposure.  I anticipate your updates like a hot dog yearns for ketchup.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Fishers Island update)
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2010, 06:08:32 PM »
Pat-

Before I answer, a couple of disclaimers.  First, I'm a high handicap player, so my ability to execute certain shots would certainly be different than yours.  Second, I've played NGLA twice and FI once, so I've had much less experience than yourself.  With that being said, here are my answers:

Jim, if our ability to execute shots determined our proficiency at analyzing golf courses we'd all be in trouble, having to defer to the PGA Tour Pros ;D


1.  The 6th green at NGLA certainly has more pronounced and unusual internal contours than the 16th at FI, however, the 16th at FI is still quite capable of striking fear in the heart of any player that gets out of position.  Anybody who misses long on that green (which is not hard to do with a fronting bunker and prevailing downwind conditions) will struggle mightily to make par.  The 16th at FI has a severe back to front and left to right slope if my memory serves me correctly.

Statistically, I think very, very, very few golfers go long, maybe 3 % - 4 %, hence, while going long creates problems, in practice, few get themselves in that position.  I don't know that I'd describe# 16 green at FI as being severely sloped back to front, but, it's a nice slope, which also acts as a backstop for incoming shots, whereas the back tier at NGLA is relatively flat, to falling away from the tee, which feeds balls to the back bunker. 


2. I don't recall the 6th at NGLA being more angular to the line of play, but I'll take your word for it as you've played it far more times than I.  From my perspective, both holes played 140-150 yards, slightly down hill, with fronting bunkers and difficult putting surfaces.

The lower right section of the green to the upper left section of the green is at an angle to the tee.
The lower right corner is much closer than the far left corner providing variety in distance and target, which when combined with the wind, make the hole more difficult than the downhill yardage


3.  I suppose the 16th at FI has more playable depth, but it might be splitting hairs a bit.  I would think the 6th at NGLA is larger in terms of square footage, but plays smaller due to the "greens within a green" concept.

4.  I'll call this one a tie as I think the 16th at FI was plenty adept at feeding balls into that right hand bunker.  

As I mentioned in my earlier post, 3 of the 4 players in my group saw our pitches hit the green only to feed into that bunker.

I wonder if that was a function of the wind, more so than the contour of the green ?  Or, a combination of the wind and the contour of the green
Were you playing into a wind or a crosswind ?


There's my armchair analysis, but take it with a grain of salt since I'm sure you know both of those greens like the back of your hand.

Jim, I don't think you can go wrong choosing either hole, I just think the more pronounced contours and tiers, the greens within greens, combined with the slope of the greens make # 6 a more difficult target/hole.

I could play them both, every day, and with the change in hole location, tee and the wind, NEVER tire of playing them.

As an aside, I find # 2 at FI to be a fascinating par 3.



Jed Peters

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Friars Head update)
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2010, 08:51:33 PM »
Kevin:

Your trip definitely did not suck.

Jed

Lyne Morrison

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Friars Head update)
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2010, 09:33:51 PM »


Kevin - this is a good thread - thanks.

Hope to see you continue as time allows - more images from Friars would be a welcome bonus..

Cheers - Lyne

Kenny Baer

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Friars Head update)
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2010, 10:48:37 PM »
Kevin,

Great thread; please keep it up, I for one would be very interested in more write ups of the other courses you played.

Being that you have seen the best the world has to offer, which country's courses would you prefer to play?

Do you think the USA, GB&I, or Aus. has more top of the top courses.

I would guess that the US has more variety in our best courses compared to Aus and GB&I in that there is a wider variety of terrain, do you agree with that statement?

What an awesome trip!!

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Friars Head update)
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2010, 11:12:10 PM »
Kevin, consider this a request for Garden City pictures and comments!
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Friars Head update)
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2010, 09:23:35 AM »
Kevin,

Great thread; please keep it up, I for one would be very interested in more write ups of the other courses you played.

Being that you have seen the best the world has to offer, which country's courses would you prefer to play?

Do you think the USA, GB&I, or Aus. has more top of the top courses.

I would guess that the US has more variety in our best courses compared to Aus and GB&I in that there is a wider variety of terrain, do you agree with that statement?

What an awesome trip!!

Kenny

I've recently also added Bandon - starting with Old Macdonald. I'm trying to cover a few regions / courses that I saw on the trip.

I have very much enjoyed the journey of trying to see some of "the best" but I dont think I'll be seeing as many in the future as I have in the past. The US trip was pretty much my final "big" trip.

I love "links" golf and given a choice of anywhere in the world I'd rather be right now - pen me down for Scotland (despite the snow).  ;D

I think given the volume and $'s based on what I've seen - I think the USA certainly has at the very top a number of courses that would consume a lot of the World Top50. However, I think that beyond the top echelon there are some courses that could be considered "overrated" and too much of an emphasis is placed on course conditioning and being "green".

You cant beat Australia's weather for golfing year round - but after the Sandbelt there's simply not enough quality courses that compare to those of a similar ilk in GB&I and the USA based on what I've seen. Then again golf if we're talking "value for money" that may be a different ball game  ;)

Kevin, consider this a request for Garden City pictures and comments!

Kevin R - no problems will add Garden City to the list then.

Thanks to others for your inputs  - I'll see what I can do

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Fishers Island update)
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2010, 11:33:07 AM »
Other NY based courses I saw on my trip included:
-   Garden City
-   Winged Foot (West) + (East)
-   Quaker Ridge
-   Bethpage
-   Sebonack
-   Maidstone

I’d be happy to continue some reviews of these at a later stage when I get an opportunity and if the interest is there from GCAers ?

Kevin:

Yes, please do. There's certainly interest as this thread has been viewed (as I write this) over 1500 times. The pictures are wonderful !

Dónal.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Garden City update)
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2010, 08:10:55 AM »
As promised below is an another US course that I saw:

Garden City GC (GCGC) was a course that I had seen very little literature about prior to visiting it and is certainly one steeped in history.

A true “members club” in every sense of the word whilst the partisanship base is “men only” the atmosphere in the clubhouse is one to be experienced. It brought back memories from my trips to some similar styled clubs in GB&I. I could have spent all day in there with the golf books and memorabilia large enough to be centrepiece of a US golf museum.

My trip actually started at this course and it was one I just had to visit with the “Australian” Travis connection. I certainly appreciated the warm hospitality of the management at the club from the professional to the GM all were very friendly and accommodating.

The course begins on a small piece of property which houses the opening two and closing holes as well as a small driving range. In a rough ‘U’ shaped routing it then hits a narrow strip before opening up to wide open terrain which contains the majority of holes on the course.

The land isn’t abundantly rich in topographic changes but what little there is used very thoughtfully. You almost forget that you are in the middle of suburbia Long Island NY with a few houses that back onto the property the only reminder of such.

I noticed that the greensites were relatively small targets and it was interesting to find a lot of them were not raised significantly but rather an extension of the fairway that tilt ever so slightly to the back and sides. The fescue grasses that lined the fairways provided a unique colour contrast to the overall “greenness” of the layout.

Holes I noted:
2nd = a short P3 of around 140yds across an old  quarry pit to an angled green that is well protected on all sides by bunkers. I sat and watched a few groups play this hole and very few were able to hit the target. The green itself is quite tricky and relatively long - there are no guarantee two putts on it that’s for sure.



4th =  this P5 of around 520yds has some interesting topography changes with the fairway moving downhill and a large series of somewhat blind bunkers protecting the left hand side of the fairway. The green is perched above the fairway on a hillside and has some significant terraces and slopes.



5th = this is a lovely little short P4 of around 360yds with a funnelled fairway protected by bunkers on both sides. The greensite is also protected by bunkers and mounds and has a relatively narrow entrance.



10th = a P4 of around 410yds has a series of pot bunkers and cross hazards off the tee and green that has no visible frames of reference making depth perception difficult. The green also slopes front to back.



14th = is a grand little P4 of around 340yds with a tight drive and a green tilted to the right and towards bunkers.



16th = is a dogleg left at around 400yds. One cannot afford to go left close to the green as a lateral hazard will be the penalty. There are also a few bunkers and a small ridge that moves across the green making the hole even harder.



18th = in my travels I have seen very few “great” P3 finishers but this is certainly an exception. Reportedly modelled on the “Eden” template this has some differences including a shot over a small dam. The green itself is massive and connects with the practice putting green so there could be some interesting length putts to finish the round.



GCGC shows its age so to speak with its old wooden clubhouse but it accentuates the charm of the course in a sense that it is truly - an historic club. I would suggest that GCGC is a “thinking man’s” course – ball position and control seem to be important attributes to have around the tight layout surely particularly when the course plays firm’n’fast ?

Whilst it doesn’t have the scale nor the topography of nearby Bethpage (Black) – I would gladly play GCGC over it. GCGC wont beat you up with length but it will test your creativity around the greens which as I have said before by and large were quite small, very quick and had numerous subtle movements in them.

This course set the standard of my trip and I’m sure like a good red it will retain it’s quality over time. “The Old Man” Travis would be proud.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 08:17:20 AM by Kevin Pallier »

Ash Towe

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Garden City update)
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2010, 02:24:49 PM »
Kevin, great pics and coverage of Garden City.  Thanks for sharing.

Paul Jones

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Garden City update)
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2010, 02:59:56 PM »
Looks like you had perfect weather the entire trip - I am jealous.  What time of the year were you in NY?
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Chuck Brown

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Garden City update)
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2010, 03:08:17 PM »
This is a wonderful thread.

So Kevin, with all due respect to all of these fantastic Long Island golf clubs, if you were to be given your choice as to just one to belong to, which would it be?

Andrew Summerell

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Garden City update)
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2010, 03:48:49 PM »
Thanks for the photos Kevin. They bring back some great memories.

There are many aspects that feel like the London Heathland. You are always up for a list Kevin, so if it was in the London Heathland, where would you place it in a list of Heathland courses?

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Garden City update)
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2010, 11:28:02 PM »
Looks like you had perfect weather the entire trip - I am jealous.  What time of the year were you in NY?

Paul

Not entirely correct - I had some terrible weather in parts of my trip but it didn't dampen my enthusiasm one iota. I was in NY in Oct and had good weather re: it

So Kevin, with all due respect to all of these fantastic Long Island golf clubs, if you were to be given your choice as to just one to belong to, which would it be?

Chuck

I would have to toss a coin between Shinnecock Hills and NGLA

There are many aspects that feel like the London Heathland. You are always up for a list Kevin, so if it was in the London Heathland, where would you place it in a list of Heathland courses?

Andrew

Indeed. The London Heathland has some similarities.

Up for lists ? me ?  :D

I would put my favourites in the "Heathbelt" ahead of it ie: Sunningdale (Old+New) / Swinley F + St George's Hill. You ?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 11:29:45 PM by Kevin Pallier »

Andrew Summerell

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Garden City update)
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2010, 06:00:34 AM »
I would probably only have Swinley ahead of it.

That is nothing against Sunningdale Old or New, St Georges Hill, Woking or any of the others. It's more to do with the esteem I hold GC.

Michael Taylor

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Garden City update)
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2010, 08:04:36 AM »
Man I love the look of Garden City GC. 16 looks like a very nice hole, and I like the fact that the hazard isn't encroaching right near the green (assuming by the photos it's about 5y left of the putting surface).

What was your favorite hole at GCGC? Also do you have a photo of 18 from the tee?

And what other courses are we going to see in this thread? I'm following it intently.

Keep up the good work.

Pup

JNC Lyon

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Garden City update)
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2010, 11:07:50 AM »
Kevin,

Thanks for the pictures of Garden City.  I absolutely love this golf course.  Your photos show some of the great long views of the Hempstead Plain.  These vistas are a defining look of the golf course.  The photo of the 5th is especially neat.  I remember not being a huge fan of that hole when I played it.  It does not contain the original Travis green.  However, your photo makes the hole look very cool and begs me to reconsider my original assessment.

I also love the shot of the 18th green.  Is there a better way to finish off a round of golf?

Does anybody think Garden City's routing bears some resemblance to that of St. Andrews?  The course starts in the bustling town center, and slowly opens up and leads away from civilization.  Even though he is still in the middle of Long Island, a golfer on holes 4 through 15 feels as if he is completely removed from the world.  Then, the golfer re-enters the busy world on 16 and comes face to face with the modern world on 17's tee shot.  18 then finishes right on the doorstep of one of golf's great clubhouses.  A nearly perfect routing for a golf course.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in NY: USA Final Frontier Trip (Garden City update)
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2010, 05:06:48 PM »
Man I love the look of Garden City GC. 16 looks like a very nice hole, and I like the fact that the hazard isn't encroaching right near the green (assuming by the photos it's about 5y left of the putting surface).

What was your favorite hole at GCGC? Also do you have a photo of 18 from the tee?

And what other courses are we going to see in this thread? I'm following it intently.

Keep up the good work.

Pup

Michael

I thought the 2nd was a great little P3 and would probably pick it.

I do have a photo off the tee at 18 - will post it later tonight.

I'm not sure - Kevin Reilly was particularly keen to see GCGC hence the write up. Yours ?




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