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Tom MacWood

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #375 on: February 06, 2010, 11:29:55 PM »
Man...you're full of surprises Tom.   I owe you a nickel.  ;D

I do hope one day you come to Philadelphia and see the Merion archives for yourself.  

In the meantime, I'd only ask you to read the following summer 1917 article and ask yourself how these men allowed this stuff to be written about them if it wasn't true.   This article makes very clear what "laid out" meant to the readership (hint...it wasn't just about purely construction and agronomics), and what a golf architect was, and why some men chose to become pros at it and why some wished to remain amateurs.

Wilson and the others here weren't into it for the money, Tom, and it surprises me not in the least that the Atlantic City papers in 1913 didn't report Wilson by name as they wouldn't have known who he was and he frankly could have cared less that they didn't.

They just wanted to build great golf courses because they loved the game and because it had to be a helluva lot of fun, however frustrating, to do so.


I don't know why these men allowed this stuff to be written about them. How many times was it written that Wilson travelled abroad prior to the East course being laid out?

Bisphman was mentioned...was he a big name?

I don't believe the men who chose to be professional golf architects had any less love for the game.

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #376 on: February 06, 2010, 11:46:58 PM »
Tom,

These men did not write that Wilson travelled abroad prior to the East course being routed.   Do you even read what I write, or just choose to ignore it?

Weren't you the one some years back who pointed out that when this article was written in October 1913 that the "new" course at Merion William Evans was talking about would have been the just constructed West course which you just pointed out tonight was played by Tillinghast around that time?




Or perhaps you're thinking of this Joe Bunker article from December, 1914?




Once again, as the lead article in this thread shows clearly, when Merion was originally seeded, it was basically 18 tees, fairways, and greensites, using the available land to best advantage in a routing that a recently published Joe Bausch article shows was not really what Hugh Wilson had hoped for.   That was "the course".

As Alex Findlay, AW Tillinghast, and others wrote, the strategies and bunkering and "mental hazards" were to come later, after study of great holes here and abroad and careful observation of play.   Some of that work happened opening, after Wilson's return, but more of the actual bunkering took place after Merion was awarded the US Amateur.

If you go back and read posts 178 and 179 it's really pretty clear.

So, "before anything was done to the course originally", Wilson went abroad and saw for himself the great holes and courses that Macdonald had shown him in sketches, and in his own adaptations at NGLA prior to his trip overseas.   On his return, he attempted to copy some of those features on the new Merion course, as in "making" an Alps hole, as Findlay wrote.

You're just so anxious to prove all of these contemporaneous writers wrong that you're reading into it what you hope to find, rather than putting yourself in their shoes, and thinking about what they really meant writing in their own time based on events as they happened on the ground.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 11:58:51 PM by Mike Cirba »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #377 on: February 06, 2010, 11:57:42 PM »
Did Wilson go abroad before Merion-East was constructed? If I'm not mistaken construction was more or less finished when he travelled overseas.

If you are trying to say the authors were making a distinction between someone who designed and Wilson who only constructed the first course, I agree with you and them.

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #378 on: February 07, 2010, 12:10:37 AM »
Tom,

That's where you're wrong.   

You're placing yourself in today's context where the construction of a golf course entails a finished product by opening.   Frankly, I'm surprised that you'd make that mistake because you've certainly read enough of these early accounts to know that many of the early courses were anything but.

I'll repeat the germane parts from my earlier posts below because based on your questions, you either haven't read them or chose to ignore them.   In either case, this is what I think happened;

If you disagree, then explain why, because otherwise I fear we're just repeating ourselves and covering the same old ground.   As much as you might want to gain new converts who don't know the whole story, I really think that's probably a waste of both of our time.


Tom,

I've already stipulated that there were men with more experience designing golf courses than Hugh Wilson at the time Lesley, et.al. selected him for Merion and at the time Geist selected him for Seaview.

Your incredulity over why those rich, influential men saw the value in using Hugh Wilson to create their golf courses is understood and you've previously communicated that you don't understand how they could have done that many, many times here previously.   

However, being in denial gets us no closer to actually understanding these events clearly as they happened and as everyone who documented those events at that time understood them to happen.

For instance, your attempt to cast doubt on William Evans as a messenger because you don't like his message is really not valid, because "Joe Bunker", "Billy Bunker", and other writers for other local papers also said Hugh Wilson designed Seaview.   What's more, I think we need to look a little deeper at what these men actually wrote about Wilson's trip abroad, particularly in light of the article Joe uncovered that started this thread that shows us clearly that not much was actually done when Merion was originally grassed except that tees and greens were located and grassed, essentially.

Evans wrote;

Mr. Wilson some years ago before the new Merion course was constructed visited the most prominent courses here and in Great Britain and has no superior as a golf architect."

Before attempting to devalue Mr. Evan's opinion, perhaps you can tell me how that differs from what others at the time said and how they said it.

For instance, in February 1916, A.W. Tillinghast wrote;

"Certainly a reference to the Merion Course over which the championship of 1916 will be played, must be of interest. The course was opened in 1912, and the plans were decided upon only after a critical review of the great courses in Great Britain and America."

Later that year, in April for the Philadelphia Inquirer, author "Joe Bunker" wrote about Merion;

"Before anything was done to the course originally, Mr. Wilson visited every golf course of any note not only in Great Britain, but in this country as well, with the result being that Merion's East course is the last word in course architecture.   It has been improved each year until it is now nearly perfect from a golf point."

Earlier, in December, 1914, Joe Bunker wrote;

"Hugh I. Wilson, for a number of year’s chairman of the Green Committee at Merion Cricket Club has resigned.  He personally constructed the two courses at Merion, and before the first was built he visited every big course in Great Britain and this country. “

In January 1913, right after the course opened, "Far and Sure" wrote for American Golfer;

"It is too early to attempt an analytical criticism of the various holes for many of them are but rough drafts of the problems, conceived by the construction committee ,headed by Mr. Hugh I. Wilson.   Mr. Wilson visited many prominent British courses last summer, searching for ideas, many of which have been used."

And thanks to an article you found that was reproduced here, we all know what Richard Francis wrote in 1950 about Wilson's trip abroad and its purpose;




So, I think in light of the fact that William Evans and many of these other authors seemed to be talking about "constructing" as creating the man-made golf course features that define the strategies (problems) of the holes, or the "mental hazards" as Alex Findlay termed it, then there is nothing erroneous at all about what William Evans wrote.   

These accounts, and others of the time, seem to have given credit to Wilson for the basic "laying out" of the holes in their raw state, as a location and physical placement of tees, fairways, and greens, as well as the design and creation and "construction" of the "mental hazards" over time as play on the course was closely observed and determinations made on how best to challenge the top golfers, while still remaining playable and fun for the average club member.

Tom MacWood,

This is what I think happened;

Let's go back to the Alex Findlay article that Joe posted some months back and start there. 

“I advised him, preparatory to his trip to Scotland, to watch carefully the seventeenth, or Alps hole, at Prestwick,  which he really imagined existed on his new course.  He is now convinced that it will take a lot of making to equal that famous old spot”. – Alex Findlay, talking about Hugh Wilson in May 1912 after Wilson’s return from overseas

What do you think Findlay means when he says that it will take a lot of making in this context?   As we already know, the golf course and the holes have already been routed, the basic tees and greens were placed on the ground, the greens and tees shaped and seeded, and now growing in.   That all happened over the previous year and now the course is months from opening so why would some hole concept still “take a lot of making”, or require much more work to be anything resembling the original?   

Let’s examine some previously stated assumptions as stated by the author of the Merion whitepaper published here;

1. Wilson has long been credited with designing the course based upon principles he learned while traveling abroad.   
2. This assumes he traveled abroad before the course was designed and built.   
3. But he did not travel abroad until after the course had been routed, planned, built, and the tees, greens, and fairways seeded, and at least some of the artificial features built.   
4. Therefore the initial routing, lay out plan, construction, tees, greens, fairways, and at least some of the artificial features could not have been based on what Wilson learned while traveling abroad. 

You may be very surprised to learn that I agree with almost everything written here with the exception perhaps that the first point is an overly broad generalization and oversimplification but the second point is where I’d like to get more specific because I’m not sure it’s a valid assumption.

I want to be sure I address this comprehensively, and I guess we have enough generally agreed examples to work with using Merion holes 3 (redan), 10 (Alps), and 15 green (Eden Green) that consensus concurs that were based on some overseas principles. 

Let’s start with the redan hole, the third.   

Richard Francis tells us directly that this is one of the holes that “benefitted” from Hugh Wilson’s overseas visit and that “the location of the hole lent itself to this design”.

You’ll notice he doesn’t say that they found that location while looking for a redan hole.   He states that they located the hole first, and only then, working within the possibilities and constraints of their natural conditions, determined that applying some redan principles to that location might work well.

This is wholly consistent with what Francis tells us about the purpose of Wilson’s trip abroad.  Francis also tells us clearly that the idea all along was to “incorporate their good features on our course” AFTER Wilson returned in May of 1911.

How could this be?   Weren’t the holes already “designed” before Wilson went abroad, as you rightfully ask?

The simple answer is, no, they weren’t designed.    Eighteen tees and greens were fitted into the property in a routing, again using the natural features and conditions at their disposal on the property that had been selected as their canvas.

None of these tasks required Wilson to go abroad to study first because all they were using at this point was their own carefully studied knowledge of the property, their understanding of good golf holes in the U.S. through their own individual experiences playing golf at a high level nationally for over a decade, as well as what knowledge Macdonald had imparted regarding agronomics and construction techniques, as well has his knowledge of the great holes abroad that he communicated during their visit with him at NGLA.

All of the early accounts mentioned that what was built at first was incomplete, that there were very few bunkers and pits, and that “mental hazards” and additional strategies would be added later.   THAT was the purpose of Wilson’s trip abroad…to see in person the type of great hole strategies they had discussed with Macdonald and now wished to apply to their evolving golf course.

Some months ago,  we had a great debate here re: whether the 3rd hole was indeed a redan, because it does not have the characteristic green sloping front to back, and tilted severely to the low side.  In fact, the 3rd green at Merion slopes back to front, the opposite of what you would expect.

If you think about the definition of the great holes abroad, almost every one of them are self-defined by a few key attributes, and in almost every case it’s not due to some natural feature that needs to be present, but due instead to the placement of artificial hazards which determine strategy.   THAT is what makes them somewhat repeatable.   Almost every template hole is self-defined by its bunkering pattern which defines the hole strategy…the road hole, the redan, the eden, the short, the alps…

I would contend that when the Merion course was first routed, shaped, and seeded, the 3rd hole was simply a tee in a valley, and a green located on a plateau hilltop, much like probably hundreds of uphill par threes in existence, although that barn-top abrupt rise does make it admittedly a bit special.

If nothing else was done to the hole after that it would still be a very good hole…it could even be bunkerless and would be a very good hole.

Yet, to apply some of what they saw as “redan principles”, the Wilson committee decided to build the key “redan bunker” into the face of the hill diagonally to one side (which Francis tells us was the basement of the barn), and also put some “high side” bunkering in on the left to catch the golfer playing a bit too cautiously away from the visually obvious front-right hazard.   

I would contend that those bunkers, and thus the entire hole strategy as a “redan” were added AFTER Wilson’s return from abroad.   The green design doesn’t exactly fit the redan concept because as you mentioned, that was already done and in place.   But we already know they weren’t looking for exact copies…they were simply looking to implement specific features and principles of great holes abroad and apply them to their natural inland conditions.

So it goes with the other examples.   Robert Lesley tells us the “principle” of the Alps Hole they wanted to copy was the large crossing bunker in front of the green, and possibly the large mound behind.    Well, we already know that when Wilson returned from his trip abroad and spoke with Findlay, he admitted that to create anything like the original Alps, “it would take a lot of making.”

But what about the “Eden Green” on the 15th, I’m sure you’re thinking.    Didn’t that require previous intent?   After all, it was built with a large back to front slope and we know that it was roundly criticized as too severe, as was the 8th, which Francis tells us “originally…took the contour of the hillside so that players had to play onto a green which sloped sharply away from them.”   The 8th green was rebuilt before 1916.

In the case of the 15th, we know that Tillinghast claimed it sloped so much from back to front that players had to “skittle” their approach shots up to the front.

But, was it an Eden green because of the back to front slope, which on the uphill 15th also probably originally took much of “the contour of the hillside”, or was it the typical Eden bunkering pattern, where a large front right bunker cut into the face of the upslope is only matched in challenge and difficulty by the “Hill bunker” to the left, where those playing away from the more obvious frontal attack often end up?

Once again, I’d contend that the bunkering created the strategy of that approach, and defined the principles they wanted to copy from overseas on the 15th.

There was also some previous speclation that the 6th hole had some characteristics of a Road Hole, and I agreed.   What made it a road hole?

Well, we know it had a property boundary on the right but that was simply happenstance of the routing.   However, Merion CHOSE to utilize that boundary and you told us that they created a tee area that required a carry over the corner, built some large mounding in that corner, and then build a large hazard left of the green to challenge those playing too cautiously away from the boundary on the drive.

Once again, these are/were all artificial touches that created the hole strategies, and that were added AFTER the course was routed, based on what Wilson learned abroad, and based on how the Merion committee determined to apply them to the natural conditions at their disposal.

So, to draw an alternate timeline,  this is what it looks like to me;

Jan – early march 1911 – Wilson and Committee create many golf course layouts, none of which they are completely satisfied with.

March 1911 – Visit Macdonald at NGLA and gain some great insight.

March – April 6th – Wilson and Committee take what they’ve learned and created “five different” course layouts.   Macdonald makes his second visit to the property and after reviewing the land and the proposed layouts carefully, helps the committee select the best routing.

April 19th – The Merion Board gives approval to the selected and recommended plan and construction proceeds forthwith.

Late April – Fall 1911 – Construction of 18 tees and greens consistent with the routing that attempts to take best advantage of the natural features of the property takes place and by fall the property is seeded.

Winter 1911-12 – Wilson tells us that the committee worked all winter, although it’s unclear what they were doing at this point.

March 1912-May 1912 – Wilson goes abroad to study.

May 1912 – Sept 1912 – Wilson puts the first “overseas touches” on the golf course, almost certainly in the form of bunkers and mounding influence play and creating internal, artificial hole strategies that he emulates based on great holes he has now both seen and discussed with Macdonald through sketches and Mac’s NGLA versions, as well as the originals he’s seen with his own eyes.  Some of it was termed "experimental".

Sept 1912 – Sept 1916 – This work continues slowly because the natural hazards make the course difficult and challenging enough for the average member.   Work accelerates in mid 1915 when Merion is awaded the US Amateur of 1916.



So Tom...let's wrap this up unless you can shed new insight in some way.   In a way, I'm glad you put some of these assumptions to the test because it has caused a few of us to revisit the story and learn some new facts, but in the end, we come back to essentially the same place.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #379 on: February 07, 2010, 12:21:02 AM »
No one is forcing you to post. I think one thing that has become clear from this expose of Seaview, and the earlier ones of Merion, is how little importance was placed on the routing or who did the routing. Today we understand the routing may be the most important part of the process, back then I don't believe they thought it had any importance. As result the original router often got swept under the rug.

TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #380 on: February 07, 2010, 09:20:40 AM »
I don't think the routing of Merion East has ever been assigned little importance by those who have a lot of experience at and with that course and consequently the original router (Wilson and committee) never got swept under the rug as can be seen by the attribution and praise Hugh Wilson enjoyed from some of the most significant architects and commentators of his time.

It is ironic that statements like the one in the post above generally come from people who are just learning the architectural history of Merion East and consequently think they are the ones discovering something that has already been well known for close to a century now.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #381 on: February 07, 2010, 09:32:19 AM »
TMac,

The routing at Merion seemed important enough for Richard Francis to make a bicycle trip in the middle of the night to show it off!

I think what we see is that in the early days, there was not as formal a process for routing and design, with all these guys bouncing ideas off a lot of people.  It seems that a lot of folks are interested in the initial phases, much like the citizens of Washington DC going out to see the first battle of the Civil War, but losing interest quickly when it got ugly.  Same deal with a new golf course. I bet the first couple of meetings are chock full of interested parties, but the interest level dropped off as it got to be hard work, and went to nearly zero when it came to construction, where design decisions continued to be made.

But, that is just a guess.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #382 on: February 07, 2010, 09:35:05 AM »
Tom,

If the act of routing wasn't considered important back then, why would the Merion Committee create many plans, and then "five different plans" after visiting NGLA, and then have Macdonald back down to Ardmore to go over the land and the plans with them and help them choose the best one?

It certainly sounds to me that they considered routing of primary importance.

At a time when most routings were done by foreign "professionals" in a couple hours time...and yes, as you've shown over and over those pros did indeed get credited in the press, the lengthy and detailed routing processes done at NGLA and Merion broke the usual mold.

I sense the routing process was taken similarly seriously at Seaview and we're hoping to find more details on the original routing, because they sound to have lost some very cool holes down along the bay in that early hurricane..
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 02:07:07 PM by Mike Cirba »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #383 on: February 07, 2010, 09:37:29 AM »
In one evening you post the Peter Putter article and ask how these men could possibly allow these things to be written about them if they weren't true, and then you post series of articles that are clearly wrong about Wilson's trip abroad and then try to explain away why they were confused. You can't have it both ways.

When Evans (10/1913) said Wilson travelled overseas 'some years ago' I interpret 'some years' as more than two, and usually quite a bit more than two. Evans was way off. Wilson had just travelled overseas the year before, and after the major construction had taken place (1911). The course was seeded in September 1911; Wilson travelled overseas May 1912; the course opened September 1912. That is called inaccurate reporting, and to my knowledge no one corrected it. Not only did no one correct it became a major part of the Merion legend decades later.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 09:39:55 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #384 on: February 07, 2010, 09:41:12 AM »
Jeff
It may have been important to Francis, but it wasn't important to those covering the game in the press.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #385 on: February 07, 2010, 09:45:48 AM »
Merion-East and Seaview are prime examples of the limited value placed upon routing a golf course back then, in both cases the evidence suggests the routing took place prior to Wilson becoming involved.

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #386 on: February 07, 2010, 09:50:47 AM »
Tom,

It's also called a "red herring".  ;)

The reporters knew Wilson went abroad to study great courses and came back with the idea of implementing those principles on the Merion course, which is exactly what happened.   

As I've shown, and as the course evolution history clearly supports, Wilson and Co. didn't need that knowledge to route the course utilizing the best natural features and hazards on the property;  they only needed it for the proper understanding of applied knowledge in adding artificial hazatds, or "mental hazards" as Findlay called them.  

As most of the great template holes were/are based largely on the placement of certain prescribed bunkering configurations that the committee had seen prior to finalizing their routings on drawings and in person at National, I'm certain Macdonald encouraged Wilson to go and see the originals as part of his education, but having that advanced foreign experience was neither a requisite step or on the critical path to first getting the course properly routed and tees and greens built.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 09:56:01 AM by Mike Cirba »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #387 on: February 07, 2010, 09:54:06 AM »
I have two questions. When was Seaview routed and when is the first known involvement of Wilson?

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #388 on: February 07, 2010, 10:08:15 AM »
Merion-East and Seaview are prime examples of the limited value placed upon routing a golf course back then, in both cases the evidence suggests the routing took place prior to Wilson becoming involved.

Tom,

For the time being, let's leave Merion out of it as you have not seen/don't accept the MCC minutes which make your statement that Merion was routed prior to Wilson's involvement wholly inaccurate.

In the case of Seaview, you keep talking about October as the first mention of Wilson, yet neglect to mention that the article talks about Wilson's work there in the "past tense", as in "Wilson has been Geist's right-hand man", and "Wilson has laid out the Seaview course".  

This wasn't some article years in the future...this was a very detailed comprehensive article written as the just built course was being seeded with the hope of opening it by sometime late next spring.  

This article is also wholly consistent with the report two months prior in the Atlantic City Press that the Seaview course "has been laid out by a number of golf experts who have had experience along these lines", which Robinson clearly did not, which Nicholls clearly did not (he had just come from abroad and was hired at Whitemarsh Valley that month despite your claims that he did revisions of that course), and Bispham as Green Committee chairman at Philadelphia Country Club had simply added bunkers to Travis's plans to a PCC course that had been 18 holes for a decade at that time and was also known as a real grass-expert    

The only folks mentioned in the series of Seaview articles with prior experience along these lines were Hugh Wilson, Fred Pickering, and possibly Bispham if we're talking construction and agronomics although he's never mentioned again after that first article that contains numerous facutal errors and in that article he's not talked about from an architectural standpoint but as one of three men who were the "prime movers" of the new club, which in itself is an inaccurate statement.  

No one ever disputed Evans account, and other writers over the next few years named Wilson as the designer of Seaview as well, including that article you supplied.   I don't know why you find it difficult to accept.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 10:15:17 AM by Mike Cirba »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #389 on: February 07, 2010, 10:24:20 AM »

This article is also wholly consistent with the report two months prior in the Atlantic City Press that the Seaview course "has been laid out by a number of golf experts who have had experience along these lines", which Robinson clearly did not, which Nicholls clearly did not (he had just come from abroad and was hired at Whitemarsh Valley that month despite your claims that he did revisions of that course), and Bispham as Green Committee chairman at Philadelphia Country Club had simply added bunkers to Travis's plans to a PCC course that had been 18 holes for a decade at that time and was also known as a real grass-expert    


Yesterday you rationalized the reason Wilson was not mentioned in the AC newspapers was because no one would have known who he was, today you are saying he was the only one involved who had any previous experience. I have no idea what experience Robinson had, but clearly he was the person given the responsibility. I know you would like to sweep him under the rug - as you have tried to do before with others - but you can't. 

Are you sure Nichols didn't have any experience? I thought Joe B produced a series of articles about Nichols' design experiences all over the world. Does anyone know how to pull up that old thread?

Tom MacWood

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #390 on: February 07, 2010, 10:35:12 AM »
What do you make of this article? The author seems to know a lot of details about the creation of the course 25+ years after the fact. I wonder who was his source.



Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #391 on: February 07, 2010, 10:37:22 AM »
Tom,

You are quite correct about Ben Nicholls...I had forgotten about Joe's articles showing his design background overseas in some far-flung places.  What's more, he introduced a "mid-Surrey" bunkering scheme to some holes at Whitemarsh Valley later that year (1913), which was all the rage at that time and which Wilson had also done some of at Merion East.   Here's the link;

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33079.0/

Makes me wonder why he was never mentioned again related to Seaview, although we know he started at Whitemarsh Valley right at that time.   Perhaps the other lead Joe and I have in that regard will yield more information, but I think it's very likely that he had some input at Seaview now that you jog my memory.

Similarly, I have not tried to sweep William Robinson under the rug but only tried to affirm WIlson's early involvement as reported, Tom.   I have told you twice now that based on the comprehensive evidence of reporting, I consider both men original designers.   It's been you who has tried to be exclusive, once again, but only as relates to your seeming allergic affliction at mentioning Hugh Wilson and design in the same sentence.  ;)

EDIT*** Tom, we've talked about the late 1930's article above.   I'm not even sure Fred Byrod was born at the time Seaview was created, the article was written after Geist's death, and Byrod may have been responsible for the modern myth that it was a Donald Ross design.

There is nothing inaccurate in the article...it's just misleading and omits some important information, and your accusation that I'm trying to slight Robinson is erroneous.   I'm not...I give hiim equal billing with Wilson and also am interested to learn more about what role Nicholls and or Harry Colt might have played.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 02:10:51 PM by Mike Cirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #392 on: February 07, 2010, 10:51:10 AM »
Tom,

You may want to discount this 1913 article because it was written by the guy you've been trying to discredit, William Evans, ;) but he sure seems to know a lot of details of Nicholl's work at Whitemarsh Valley right around the same time he stated Hugh Wilson laid out Seaview that same year.



« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 10:57:08 AM by Mike Cirba »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #393 on: February 07, 2010, 11:25:50 AM »
I find it interesting that before editing your previous post you were suggesting Nicholls use of Alpinization was an indication of his lack architectural ability or sophistication. After thinking about you probably realized Tilly and others were at one time very keen on the idea too. Lately you've been jumping back and forth when it comes to making your arguments.

Evans claims Whitemarsh was the first course to go down that road...was he unaware of the Alpinization at Merion-East?

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #394 on: February 07, 2010, 11:32:59 AM »
I find it interesting that before editing your previous post you were suggesting Nicholls use of Alpinization was an indication of his lack architectural ability or sophistication. After thinking about you probably realized Tilly and others were at one time very keen on the idea too. Lately you've been jumping back and forth when it comes to making your arguments.

Evans claims Whitemarsh was the first course to go down that road...was he unaware of the Alpinization at Merion-East?

Tom,

I didn't consider it to be a "lack of architectural ability or sophistication" at all.   It was very popular, and ironically, one of the first moves towards more natural looking man-made features, ironic as that may seem to us today.    I didn't mean to imply anything negative about Mr. Nicholls use of those features in the least.

Actually, it was probably Tillinghast at Shawnee who first introduced the feature in PA.

EDIT*** Arguably, it was probably Tillinghast who first introduced the Mid-Surrey feature in this country.

The same American Golfer article by Far and Sure in January 1913 that reviewed the new course at Merion then launched into an extensive piece with photos of Tillinghast's Mid-Surrey schemes at Shawnee.

SECOND EDIT*** The Far and Sure article talks about it's introduction to America...I'll try to post the article shortly.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 02:05:33 PM by Mike Cirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #395 on: February 07, 2010, 12:12:38 PM »
From the January 1913 "Far and Sure" article in American Golfer, here is some of Tillinghast's Mid-Surrey "Alpinization" work at Shawnee.   Curiously, the author seems to know that Shawnee is where mounds and hollows were first introduced over three years ago.  ;)






From earlier in the same article, "Far and Sure"'s review of Merion also mentions that the "Mid-Surrey" theme had been applied there;





That same month, Tillinghast's review of Merion in the "American Cricketer" also mentioned the Mid-Surrey schemes at Merion;





Interestingly to the Seaview story, in January 1915 writer Joe Bunker mentioned Seaview twice, once related to the Mid-Surrey theme.   This was FIVE MONTHS before Geist engaged Donald Ross to come to Seaview;






The prior month, Joe Bunker attributed the design of Seaview to Hugh Wilson, just as William Evans had 15 months prior;





Some of the fairway bunkering/mounding schemes breaking up the flattish terrain at Seaview;




















« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 01:06:49 PM by Mike Cirba »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #396 on: February 07, 2010, 01:28:18 PM »
  I have always thought that the West course has more of a British Isles feel than the East course.
AKA Mayday

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #397 on: February 07, 2010, 01:39:28 PM »
 I have always thought that the West course has more of a British Isles feel than the East course.

Mike

I'd generally agree, although one reason perhaps for that is that the West course has had so little changes to it over the years, particularly in comparison to the extensive changes and evolution during the first dozen years at the East.

I also think it feels a little more "antique", probably for the exact same reasons.

TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #398 on: February 07, 2010, 02:36:15 PM »
"When Evans (10/1913) said Wilson travelled overseas 'some years ago' I interpret 'some years' as more than two, and usually quite a bit more than two. Evans was way off. Wilson had just travelled overseas the year before, and after the major construction had taken place (1911). The course was seeded in September 1911; Wilson travelled overseas May 1912; the course opened September 1912. That is called inaccurate reporting, and to my knowledge no one corrected it. Not only did no one correct it became a major part of the Merion legend decades later."



That opinion is not only really uninformed speculation, it also happens to be completely untrue. When Evans said in 1913 "some years ago" he did not say Wilson went abroad in 1910 (Wilson actually went abroad a year and a half before Evans wrote that) and it really doesn't matter what YOU think it means because you've never had a thing to do with the recorded history of Merion East and you know no one who ever has had ether. As has been mentioned on this website over the years, the story that Wilson went abroad in 1910 did not come up until about a half a century after Merion East was first created.

There are definitely one or two on this website who seem to think if they just keep repeating the same old misinformation about Merion's history often enough that after a while someone might think it has some credibility.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 02:39:38 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #399 on: February 08, 2010, 06:18:14 AM »
I did a little checking on the background of W. D. Robinson. The earliest mention I've found is 1902 and at the time he was the pro at AC, and evidently he remained there before taking the job at Seaview. With all his experience at AC I could see why Geist would have gone with Robinson. AC was redesigned several time during his tenure, and no doubt the unique site (near a marshland) would have presented some unusual challenges that someone building on a similar site would appreciate.

He did not last too long Seaview. It appears he left there sometime in 1915,  perhaps right before Reid was hired, although I'm not sure about that. He then pops up working for Wannemakers, the famous department store. Alex Findlay was closely associated with Wannemakers for years. The other pro associated with the golf school, from the Pittsburgh FC, Warren Webb, who collaborated with Findlay in the design of Altwood CC (Altwold), which was built by Pickering. If I had continued my timeline the next project for Findlay/Pickering would have been Pittsbrugh FC.

Joseph Williams the person who basically ran Wannamakers was probably Findlay's best friend. The two made several golfing trips around the world over the years. In the article that had Findlay visiting Seaview (I believe it was in 1914) near the end of the article it says that Mr. Mrs. Joseph Williams have been staying at Seaview for the week.

It appears Robinson eventually retired to AC, which is acknowledged in the article from 1953. The long time pro at Seaview, Fraser, seems to be fairly close to Robinson. I wonder if Fraser was the source for the 1939 article which claimed Robinson and Geist were responsible for the original design.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 06:20:47 AM by Tom MacWood »