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TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #300 on: February 01, 2010, 04:09:51 PM »
Mike and Joe:

As you know Hugh Wilson didn't talk much to Piper and Oakley (at least not in those years long "agronomy letters") about the actual architecture of things he was involved with, the vast majority of it was on golf agronomy, but he did happen to mention to them that he was excited about the prospects of a new project he was getting involved with in Bryn Mawr. Maybe you know something about that but perhaps it just never happened as he never mentioned it to them again, agronomically or otherwise.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 04:11:43 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #301 on: February 01, 2010, 04:10:24 PM »
Tom,

I guess we can go round and round or just agree to disagree.   That's ok...I always appreciate your input, even when I think you're way off base.  ;)

So you know, Joe and I were talking and we think another source in AC might provide more information than the periodicals we went through this weekend.   So, even though you're ready to credit Willam Robinson with the full original design, I'm not ready to close the book yet on Harry Colt, or Hugh Wilson, or even George Crump, Ab Smith, Tillinghast, Mr. Bispham, and/or other friends of Geist's at the time....the more we seem to learn about these early projects in Philadelphia the more we keep coming back to the same collaborative themes among many of the same folks.

When an article mentions that a course was "laid out by experts" with prior experience, my ears pick up because it's a theme we've heard many times, most tellingly at Cobb's Creek.   Don't forget, "local" at the Jersey shore includes Philly and surrounds, by default.  ;D
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 04:15:19 PM by Mike Cirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #302 on: February 01, 2010, 04:13:51 PM »
Mike and Joe:

As you know Hugh Wilson didn't talk much to Piper and Oakley (at least not in those years long "agronomy letters") about the actual architecture of things he was involved with, the vast majority of it was on golf agronomy, but he did happen to mention to them that he was excited about the prospects of a new project he was getting involved with in Bryn Mawr. Maybe you know something about that but perhaps it just never happened as he never mentioned it to them again, agronomically or otherwise.

Tom,

Joe found an article some time back that Hugh Wilson, who evidently never designed a golf hole in his life if one reads GCA ;), was selected to be the architect of the brand-new Bryn Mawr Country Club, I believe in the early 20s, if memory serves.

I'm not sure if the club was ever built, but my sense is that it never got off the ground, probably due to hiring an incompetent, amateurish, novice of an architect.  ;D

TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #303 on: February 01, 2010, 04:16:53 PM »
Is somebody trying to make the point that someone other than Hugh Wilson originally designed Seaview? If so, what do you make of all those many, many different and contemporaneous articles attributing it to Wilson? ;) Is someone suggesting all of them were mistaken? If they were all incorrect about that it would seem a man like Wilson would have told them so or at least told one or some of them so and to print a retraction.

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #304 on: February 01, 2010, 04:17:34 PM »
In this Feb, 1915 article from the Gloucester Country Democrat, Pickering is again mentioned at Seaview:



Joe,

Nice find....that should clear up that matter a bit.

Who was it again who said he used Pickering for construction at Seaview after using him at Merion previously?   Was that the construction foreman oveseeing the construction foreman?  ;)

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #305 on: February 01, 2010, 04:20:44 PM »
Is somebody trying to make the point that someone other than Hugh Wilson originally designed Seaview? If so, what do you make of all those many, many different and contemporaneous articles attributing it to Wilson? ;) Is someone suggesting all of them were mistaken? If they were all incorrect about that it would seem a man like Wilson would have told them so or at least told one or some of them so and to print a retraction.

Oh Thomas Paul...you don't even want to go there.

Once again, it is being argued that it meant that Hugh Wilson only supervised construction and grassing of the golf course, and that "laid out" excluded any design role, and that Hugh Wilson was not on the scene during the design phase because the first mention of him there isn't until a newspaper account in October 1913 even though the construction hadn't even started til around June 1913, and because he didn't write to P&O about Seaview until November 1913.....you know the drill.  ;)

Trust me on this one.  ;D

TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #306 on: February 01, 2010, 04:21:36 PM »
"I'm not sure if the club was ever built, but my sense is that it never got off the ground, probably due to hiring an incompetent, amateurish, novice of an architect.   ;D"

I Don't know either if it was ever done but if it was and if the principles of the club had any sense I suspect they turned to the second best architect in America, HH Barker, to do it.

TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #307 on: February 01, 2010, 04:27:09 PM »
On #305, yes indeed, I sure do know that drill. At this point, the one who is saying it if it's who I suspect it is should probably just go to boilerplate with any and all of his future analyses and responses. But what would you expect from someone who says he can't seem to understand the vast architectural differences between working on a sand site vs a clay loam site?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 04:29:34 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #308 on: February 01, 2010, 05:00:57 PM »
Joe's latest January 1915 article finding stating that Fred Pickering was actually the man who constructed the Seaview course brought the following letter to mind;


Here is what was written by Fred Kortebein, Wilson's associate who corresponded for Wilson when he was laid up, on Feb 8, 1924 to CV Piper:

Dear Sir:

Your letter of the seventh instant to Mr. Wilson enclosing a copy of letter from Assistant Collector of Customs Perry at Boston with respect to one F.G. Pickering, has likewise been opened by me, and in reply beg to advise as follows.

Mr. Pickering was employed to look after the practical work in the actual construction of the East Course at Merion, and it is Mr. Wilson's feeling that in this particular class of work he is a very practical man.  He, however, had one fault at that time, which was the excessive use of liquor, and he was likewise employed in the actual construction of the West course, when conditions became more acute with him, and he practically "blew up".  Flynn worked under him and, when he was let go from Merion, Flynn succeeded him.  Mr. Wilson subsequently tried him out in the actual construction work at Seaview (bold mine), and his characteristics during his employment there were even more pronounced than at Merion.

Yours very truly,
Fred Kortebein


Tom MacWood

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #309 on: February 01, 2010, 07:37:26 PM »
Here is an interesting article written by Bob Labbance. In it there is an excerpt from a Pittsburgh newspaper report that has Pickering working in Pittsburgh in August 1914, and another article in American Golfer from June 1915 which has Pickering putting the finishing touches before the Pittsburgh course opens for play. For a guy who was supposedly a degenerate he sure got a lot of work.

http://www.superintendentmagazine.com/article.php?id=463

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1915/ag142o.pdf

Tom MacWood

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #310 on: February 01, 2010, 07:39:18 PM »
Are there any contemporaneous reports that show Wilson was involved prior to Oct 1913?

Joe Bausch

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #311 on: February 01, 2010, 08:01:24 PM »
Are there any contemporaneous reports that show Wilson was involved prior to Oct 1913?

If they were written by Billy Evans, would you believe them TMac?  :)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #312 on: February 01, 2010, 08:46:00 PM »
Here is an interesting article written by Bob Labbance. In it there is an excerpt from a Pittsburgh newspaper report that has Pickering working in Pittsburgh in August 1914, and another article in American Golfer from June 1915 which has Pickering putting the finishing touches before the Pittsburgh course opens for play. For a guy who was supposedly a degenerate he sure got a lot of work.

http://www.superintendentmagazine.com/article.php?id=463

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1915/ag142o.pdf


Tom MacWood,

I believe Fred Pickering is the much unsung construction and agronomic genius of early American golf, but that's just me.   A lot of these guys drank heavily, unfortunately, and a lot of times one's social status determined the overall negative impact of such indiscretions.

Alex Findlay was sure high on him, and I bet Wilson was too, but Wilson probably didn't quite know what to make of him, from the sounds of it.

The more I read about him the more I want to know, and he clearly was responsible for helping Merion's both courses get off the ground successfully, and apparently Seaview, as well.

The construction of Seaview was in 1913, so I don't know that there'd be any contention for his time as relates to the articles you posted, but more information is always welcome and thanks for posting it.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 08:47:45 PM by Mike Cirba »

TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #313 on: February 01, 2010, 09:21:34 PM »
Mike:

I think what you are saying is logicial and credible and fairly historically supportable. My only concern is it seems like the ONLY one you're responding to on here is Tom MacWood and I'm just afraid he either just doesn't get it, doesn't want to or just won't admit it. In a short sentence I think you are  wasting your time and effort on him by going on and on with a thread like this just responding to his peculiar analyses on Seaview. You and Joe have put a wealth of information on here regarding the Seaview project and it should just stand on its own for anyone to consider and decide what it means as to who designed Seaview.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 09:47:28 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #314 on: February 01, 2010, 10:31:15 PM »
Are there any contemporaneous reports that show Wilson was involved prior to Oct 1913?

I take it that would be a no. I agree with Mike, Pickering's contribution to golf architecture has been underrated, working with the an impressive list of golf architects including Ross, Barker and most of all Findlay. I've always thought TEP and Wayne made far too much of that one letter in the P&O archives. The interesting thing about the timing of that letter, soon after it Pickering had an article published in the green section magazine. Evidently P&O did not take it too seriously either.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #315 on: February 02, 2010, 06:01:43 AM »
Mike and Joe:

As you know Hugh Wilson didn't talk much to Piper and Oakley (at least not in those years long "agronomy letters") about the actual architecture of things he was involved with, the vast majority of it was on golf agronomy, but he did happen to mention to them that he was excited about the prospects of a new project he was getting involved with in Bryn Mawr. Maybe you know something about that but perhaps it just never happened as he never mentioned it to them again, agronomically or otherwise.

Tom,

Joe found an article some time back that Hugh Wilson, who evidently never designed a golf hole in his life if one reads GCA ;), was selected to be the architect of the brand-new Bryn Mawr Country Club, I believe in the early 20s, if memory serves.

I'm not sure if the club was ever built, but my sense is that it never got off the ground, probably due to hiring an incompetent, amateurish, novice of an architect.  ;D

Here is the relevant part of a "Clubs and Clubmen" article from the May 7, 1922 edition of the Philadelphia Inquirer.  I don't know if this land is the same as where the Philly CC Spring Mill course was eventually built.

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #316 on: February 02, 2010, 06:05:19 AM »
Generally, I think this thread has been a very good one, with a lot of information heretofore never produced/discussed on GCA, from the lack of Merion's bunkering 3 years after opening, to the changes made to Merion for the 1916 US Amateur, to a chronology of Tillinghast articles detailing who did what/when at Pine Valley, to Hugh Wilson's only written comments on architecture (bunkering specifically), to side-bars on a number of related topics, to speculation on the role of the seed companies in architecture and as related to Harry Colt's visit to America, to an in-depth chronological history of the evolution of Seaview, which despite some critical commentary from some who don't quite understand its place and importance, was a historically significant golf course.

However, we seem to be getting into a spin cycle, so I'll try to wrap up the chronological events this morning and we can put this thing to bed, unless someone has additional information to bring forward.   All in all, I think we managed to come out of this with more light and less heat, and I think that's a good thing.

***EDIT***Oh...see...just when I try to bring things to a close, I see Joe Bausch has just posted an article of Hugh Wilson agreeing to work with Colt and Allison in 1922.   ;)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 06:09:58 AM by Mike Cirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #317 on: February 02, 2010, 09:40:27 AM »
In an attempt to wrap this thread up based on what we know to date;

May/June 1913 - Course building starts - Articles indicate that former Atlantic City pro William Robinson has been put in charge of the project and he is soliciting expert opinions on the layout.   An August article indicates that the course has been laid out by experts who have prior experience.   The Evans article in October 1913 indicates Hugh Wilson was Geist's right hand man and laid out the course.   Later articles reiterate that attribution.

January 1914 - A hurricane eliminates four low-lying holes near the bay and forces that purchase of additional land and the subsequent creation of four new holes.

Summer 1914 - Course open to membership play

December 1914 - Hugh Wilson resigns as chairman of the Merion Green Committee citing the need to devote more time to his business.   He has just designed and built Merion East, Merion West, and probably Seaview as a hobby over the previous 3 years, and become heavily involved with significant redesigns at North Hills and Philmont.

January 1915 - Official Grand Opening Tournament with celebrities Chick Evans and Jerry Travers in a four-ball and AW Tillinghast serving as referee.   William Connellan is mentioned as being the superintendent.

April 1915 - Club hires Wilfred Reid as pro.

April 1915 - Francis Ouimet partners with Hugh Wilson to defeat Clarence Geist and Wilfred Reid in a publicized match and also sets the new club record of 73

May 1915 - Club hires Donald Ross to "stiffen" the course by adding bunkers.  American Golfer reports that

"Seaview has called in Donald Ross
to build traps, and his ideas, together
with those of Wilfrid Reid, should
stiffen the Absecon course considerably."

After designing and building what was intended and anticipated to be Philadelphia's first post-guttie "Championship Course" with Merion East, Hugh Wilson probably never intended to do anything further but go back to playing golf at his club and attending to his business and expanding family.

By September 1912, his daughter Louise would have been approaching her 6th birthday, and his daughter Nancy would have just been turning 2.

Once Merion East opened, so did the floodgates.   Within a few short months, popularity of golf at the club exploded and the club had to restrict memberships to combat the huge demand for play.   Hugh Wilson was called back into service by club officials to build them another course, which was ready to be seeded by Fall 1913.

Merion Cricket Club minutes from the fall of 1913 reportedly had the following entry;

"With the opening of the then new East Course in September of 1912, the number of players at Merion increased so largely as to make the facilities afforded – which it was expected would be sufficient for all time to come - so insufficient for the enjoyment and pleasure of the members that complaints were made with such seriousness as to require attention from your Board..."

"Merion now becomes the only golf club in America to possess two full eighteen-hole championship courses...When it (the West Course) is opened in the spring with the bus facilities that will connect it up to the East Course, it is fully expected that the golf members of Merion will have all the facilities that they could possibly desire...Our position in golf in this country will be second to none and unique in golf history, enabling us to hold tournaments, national, state or city upon our course without interference with the game of our own members."

The Merion West course opened May 1914.

Also please note that this timing was concurrent with Wilson’s activities at Seaview.

We also know from the Piper/Oakley letters that Seaview was hardly a "paper job" and that Wilson was involved in helping to solve unique and probably frustrating, time-consuming construction problems.

What's more, and probably to the chagrin of Hugh Wilson at that time, a SECOND COURSE is already in Geist's plans!

The Seaview course was also originally supposed to open in early 1914, around the same time as Merion West.   In fact, in December 1913 Tillinghast reported;

"The new Sea View course,at Absecon is coming on beautifully. The fall seeding has been blessed with fortunate weather condition and greens and fairways already are beautifully green. Here is another course that I must inspect carefully before attempting a critical review.”

However, exactly one year later, due to the January 1914 hurricane and the autumn illness of Clarence Geist, Tilinghast again reported;

"The new course at Sea View Club is coming along beautifully and Mr. C.H. Geist announces that there will be a formal opening sometime soon after the holidays and without doubt the occasion will be a memorable one.  Mr. Geist was seriously indisposed for nearly five weeks but as soon as his physician permitted him to leave the house he went immediately to the club and began preparations for this opening."

We also know for certain that Hugh Wilson had other things going on by 1913/14.   Specifically, he had been asked by Ellis Gimbel to work on revamping Philmont with greens chairman Henry Strouse.   He was on a committee appointed by Robert Lesley, Ellis Gimbel, and Clarence Geist (and two others) to locate appropriate sites for Philadelphia's first and long anticipated public course.  He was also working with Ab Smith and J.Franklin Meehan on the new 18 hole course for North Hills.  

But, Hugh Wilson and his friends had not only located the site for the Cobb's Creek course at that time, but had already designed it in 1914, prior to the approval by the city of Philadelphia

This January 1915 article already describes the course that had already been designed.   That is the same month the project got approval from the city.



This was confirmed in another January 1915 article which states;

"Robert W. Lesley, president, stated on behalf of the Committee on the Park Golf Course, that he had seen plans for an eighteen hole public golf course prepared as the result of many consultations with himself and other golf experts laid out at the northwestern end of Cobb's Creek Park..." He added further that he is assured that work on the preparation of the course will be begun as soon as the weather permits in the spring.   The new links will be of championship length and character and will give Philadelphia a public course second to none in the United States."

Construction began at Cobb’s Creek in April 1915, not coincidentally the same timeline as Ross being called into add bunkers to Seaview.    Having been part of the team that selected the site, and the committee who drew up the architectural plans, Wilson evidently took the job close to his home very seriously and was apparently onsite for what appears to be inception to grow-in that fall.



The genesis of this thread was an article from July 1915 stating that Merion had very little in the way of bunkering as of that date, but that the course could be toughened quickly if Merion was selected for a US Amateur tournament.   Despite his ongoing work in that regard, Wilson saw the Cobb’s Creek project through to the end, as seen in this article from May 1916, before opening day.



With the announcement of the US Amateur coming to Merion in the fall of 1916, the following articles detail some of the changes Wilson made to the course, likely working closely with William Flynn.







Sadly, about halfway between the triumphs of the opening of Cobb’s Creek in late May 1916, and the unveiling of the new revamped Merion in the September of that year, Wilson suffers a personal tragedy with the death of his six-year old youngest daughter Nancy.  

After what had to be a difficult winter for Wilson, the United States entered World War I and golf course design and construction came to a necessary halt.


Finally, Some speculation on why Ross's suggested changes at Seaview were largely never accomplished... (as detailed on this thread from last year;

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38042.0/

Ross was brought in April/May 1915, shortly after Geist hired both Wilfred Reid as professional and Wiliam Connellan as superintendent.  Tillinghast speculated that the combination of Ross and Reid's ideas would be used to "stiffen" the course, as many in PHiladelphia were all about making tough golf courses at that time (although that was never the original intent at Seaview).

Geist had already spent way over budget on this project, which was to originally open in 1914, but due to problems with fill in the swampy areas, as well as a hurricane, as well as Geist's illness, was officially delayed until winter 1915.   Even a man with his deep pockets had some limitations.  

I think Hugh Wilson probably believed he could do this for Robert Lesley's friend Clarence Geist in his spare time, but when the project was already running two years, with Geist's originally announced grandiose plans now including a second eighteen holes, I think he gladly backed away from any further involvement, especially since Geist seemed to have hired quality "professional help" in the form of Ross, Reid, and Connellan.

Ross's plans were certainly intriguing and some of the suggestions would have created some bolder holes, but it would be interesting to understand what happened that first year.

Here's what we do know...

By October of 1915, William Connellan resigned.

By 1916, Wilfred Reid had left Seaview and moved to Wilmington CC in Delaware, where he would stay until the early 20s.

And as noted above, some of the most pressing things on Ross's list (like a new, probably safer green for 16) were probably actually done at this time.

However, we also know that probably 80% of what Ross suggested was never done.

By 1916, the world was on fire and it wasn't long before the United States became embroiled in WWI, which brought all frivolous expenditures in the US to a halt.  

It's interesting to note that there is very little reported on Geist or Seaview til the middle 20s when a prominent women's tournament took place there.   He then became heavily involved with William Flynn building his Boca Raton courses, and it seems Seaview never really was "toughened", or "stiffened" as originally desired.  

Today, it seems to be much as it was built for originally;  a very pleasant place to play golf requiring intesting and thoughtful shot-placement.

Given that someone probably found the Ross drawings at Seaview, and the fact that just looking at them without much study they do seem to appear much as today's holes, is probably what generated the idea that Seaview was originally a Donald Ross course.

However, I can't imagine that others haven't looked at them over the years seeing notations such as "Present Sand Pit" and not have wondered who built the course originally.

Still, I’m hopeful that some of our research this past year or so has provided much more information about the origins of this historically significant course.

Thanks for your time and feedback.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 10:08:24 AM by Mike Cirba »

TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #318 on: February 02, 2010, 11:21:05 AM »
Joe Bausch:

Your article in post #315 is one I have never seen before and it is just awesome to me as it seems to tie together a couple of heretofore somewhat mysterious questions that have been raised in various letters pertaining to Toomey and Flynn and Alison thinking about forming a business partnership. In those letters it seems to be referred to as "Alison's proposition." Apparently it involved Hugh Wilson too.

If I had to I could definitely identify exactly where that land was. I used to sell real estate and plying around the county offices of the Recorder of Deeds is something I did a lot. I might give it a shot with the title run on the property of one Wayne McVeagh.  



Mike:

Good summation on Seaview, particularly those Ross plans. What you said about them seems consistent with the way a whole lot of the old research material we now deal with on a whole lot of clubs and courses was once treated-----eg people looked at it in the past but apparently not that carefully.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 12:04:16 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #319 on: February 02, 2010, 11:22:21 AM »
Finally, I dug this one up after finding it on my old computer where I had it misnamed.

Halfway down the left side the article goes into some detail about the operation to reclaim land along the bay, as referenced in Piper & Oakley letters.   Later, it also refers again to the practice of waiting to observe play carefully before placing many bunkers that seemed to be somewhat common practice at the time;


« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 11:24:09 AM by Mike Cirba »

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #320 on: February 02, 2010, 12:36:37 PM »
Joe Bausch:

Your article in post #315 is one I have never seen before and it is just awesome to me as it seems to tie together a couple of heretofore somewhat mysterious questions that have been raised in various letters pertaining to Toomey and Flynn and Alison thinking about forming a business partnership. In those letters it seems to be referred to as "Alison's proposition." Apparently it involved Hugh Wilson too.

If I had to I could definitely identify exactly where that land was. I used to sell real estate and plying around the county offices of the Recorder of Deeds is something I did a lot. I might give it a shot with the title run on the property of one Wayne McVeagh.  


Tom, that would be great if you could do that deed work.  From poking around the Inky database, I'm confident the land was near the current Philly CC site (and maybe even included it).  I know McVeagh's mansion was near the famous Rose Tree Farm.  If you look on Google maps just to the west of Philly CC, you'll see a road now called Rose Tree Lane.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #321 on: February 02, 2010, 12:42:03 PM »
In an attempt to wrap this thread up based on what we know to date;

May/June 1913 - Course building starts - Articles indicate that former Atlantic City pro William Robinson has been put in charge of the project and he is soliciting expert opinions on the layout.   An August article indicates that the course has been laid out by experts who have prior experience.   The Evans article in October 1913 indicates Hugh Wilson was Geist's right hand man and laid out the course.   Later articles reiterate that attribution.

January 1914 - A hurricane eliminates four low-lying holes near the bay and forces that purchase of additional land and the subsequent creation of four new holes.

Summer 1914 - Course open to membership play

December 1914 - Hugh Wilson resigns as chairman of the Merion Green Committee citing the need to devote more time to his business.   He has just designed and built Merion East, Merion West, and probably Seaview as a hobby over the previous 3 years, and become heavily involved with significant redesigns at North Hills and Philmont.

January 1915 - Official Grand Opening Tournament with celebrities Chick Evans and Jerry Travers in a four-ball and AW Tillinghast serving as referee.   William Connellan is mentioned as being the superintendent.

April 1915 - Club hires Wilfred Reid as pro.

April 1915 - Francis Ouimet partners with Hugh Wilson to defeat Clarence Geist and Wilfred Reid in a publicized match and also sets the new club record of 73

May 1915 - Club hires Donald Ross to "stiffen" the course by adding bunkers.  American Golfer reports that


Yes you wrapped it up alright, you also succeeded in giving the false impression there is evidence Wilson was involved at the beginning. Oh well that is par for the course.

TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #322 on: February 02, 2010, 12:50:12 PM »
"Tom, that would be great if you could do that deed work."

Well, Joe, that would mean I would have to "get my face shaped" to go to the Recorder of Deeds at the Delaware County seat of Norristown. And it may take me quite a while to "shape my face" to do that, not to mention the fact the contributors to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com may not appreciate me going into that particular town because it also happens to be the hometown of one Thomas "Mega Earth Mover" Fazio who is apparently considered by Golfclubatlasers to be the all-time arch-enemy of GCA minimalism and the double arch-enemy of ODG architectural purity!!

TEPaul

Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #323 on: February 02, 2010, 12:56:20 PM »
"Yes you wrapped it up alright, you also succeeded in giving the false impression there is evidence Wilson was involved at the beginning. Oh well that is par for the course."


SO, then what do you make of all those newspaper articles from back then that attribute Hugh Wilson as the designer of Seaview as EVIDENCE?

Isn't it interesting that you just said the above when you went so overboard with a single newspaper article or so that attributed Myopia to Willie Campbell and a single newspaper article that mentioned Macdonald and Whigam "helped and advised" Merion East, not to mention a single newspaper article mentioning Barker and Merion and how you managed to weave that into the fact that those people designed those courses despite the fact there is a ton of evidence within those clubs own administrative records to the contrary?

Talk about false impressions and par for the course!   ::)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 01:00:04 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Merion's minimal bunkering in 1915 and NOW: Seaview Origins
« Reply #324 on: February 02, 2010, 01:08:30 PM »
There is no evidence, that I'm aware of, that Wilson was involved prior October 1913, and it is well documented the course was laid out months before then. At that time a contemporaneous report in AC gives credit to Robinson (and there is no mention of Wilson). There is also a report years later in a Philadelphia paper that credits Robinson along with Geist for the original work, but lets not let those facts get in the way of this Hugh Wilson love fest. I have to give you guys credit for your unending loyalty to your icons, unfortunately objectivity often gets lost in the shuffle.

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