[Mike Cirba]

By early June, property has been secured and the planning and laying out begins.  

Note that this is roughly the same time fram that Harry Colt is in the states, and one report mentions he inspected the course at Seaview.   We had hoped to find more in that regard, but alas, nada.

Nevertheless, it does appear that the initial charge of laying out the course went to former Atlantic City professional William Robinson.   Since I'm unaware of any design or construction work Robinson did prior, it appears he is "invited opinions of other experts in his work".




By August, it appears work is well underway and it is reported that "the course itself has been laid out by a number of golf experts (there's that word again!) who have had experience along these lines."   Frustratingly, there is no mention of any of the names of the "experts" at hand.

One wonders if this was another example of the creative collaboration often found in the Philadelphia School of Design, as exmplified at Merion, Pine Valley, and Cobb's Creek?   Did Harry Colt have any input?

[Mike Cirba]

By October of 1913, in the Philadelphia papers, the following article appears, identifying at least one of the "experts". (previously posted0

Perhaps because Wilson's notoriety didn't really extend beyond Merion and immediate Philadelphia golf society at this juncture, no one in Atlantic City or beyond ever saw any reason to name him in their publications?   In either case, this extensive report by William Evans seems to focus creative attribution on Wilson, at least at this juncture.   Certainly Wilson himself never seemed to be the type of seek either credit or the limelight.





By November of that year, it appears that Mr. Wilson is having some issues draining 5 of the low-lying holes along the salt meadows, and send the following letter to Piper & Oakley.

As you will see later, it appears those holes were never recovered.

[Mike Cirba]

In the early January 1914 timeframe, it appears that Atlantic City is hit with a hurricane.

The work at Seaview takes a bit of a beating, and although the following articles seem to put a positive spin on things, it appears that some of Wilson's letter to P&O expressing concerns about the low-lying holes was a bit prescient.





Within a month, by Valentine's Day 1914, it appears that there is no hope to reclaim those holes by the hoped for opening that year.  Instead, more land is purchased, and four new holes laid out.



On 2/28/1914, the following is reported.   It appears additional "experts" will be brought in shortly.



By their descriptions, it is almost certain that the four new holes are the two par threes and two par fours (original holes 10-13) in the far north side of the routing.




Still, that earlier report insists that the original holes will still be reclaimed, to make either a variable 18 hole course, or a 22 hole course, with the intention of at least 27 at this point..   Geist seemed to have no end to his ambitions for the place.

In March, Wilson again writes P&O, this time not about "draiing" the low-lying holes, but this time about "reclaiming" them.




By April 1913, things seem back on track, at least to open 18 holes;





...I have to run out...more to come later....

[TEPaul]

Mike:

I said on one of these threads relating to Seaview that it has been my belief (at this point) that the situation referred to in Wilson's Nov. 21, 1913 letter to Oakley and the situation referred to in his March 16, 1914 letter appear to be two different situations. Is that what you are trying to suggest in your last few posts?

It seems the situation in Nov 1913 letter was the efficacy of liming salt marsh muck alreadey laid in piles to be used on the course at some point later and the second situation was the reclamation of 30-50 acres of salt marsh land (not done at that point). In the first letter he was asking Oakley an agronomic question. In the second letter he was only asking Oakley to recommend someone else in the US Government who was an expert on salt water marsh reclamation which he certainly knew Russell Oakley wasn't. 

[Philippe Binette]

They should restore Merion by turning back Ardmore avenue in a dirt road with a set of lights on each side of the course.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom Paul,

I think they are clearly two different questions, and the nature of the problem seems to have changed due to the hurricane.

All,

Compliments of Tom MacWood, the following article shows the course by June 1914 ready to open for member play in July, which seems very fast given all of the issues experienced.  

As you'll see, other articles talked about the course opening in November.   In any case, we do know that members were out there playing by July.

Clarence Geist then had an extended illness with "the grip", which took him out of commission all fall.  




In July 1914, an extensive article in a Philadelphia newspaper claimed Hugh Wilson as the architect of Seaview;





An August 1914 article confirmed that indeed all 18 holes were in play;



In October, Verdant Greene wrote the following update, which talked a little about the architectural "intent", and again praised the greens, while stating Geist's immnent intent to build a second eighteen holes;



By November, however, Geist recovered, and the January Grand Opening was announced;







In any case, by November, the club had some kind of opening, and one of the first players was the original "America's Guest", Mr. Alex Findlay, who apparently liked the course well enough.   Mr. Findlay, who somehow played 2400 courses in his life, would have enjoyed GolfClubAtlas, methinks.    

According to the article, the course does indeed have some bunkers at this juncture, which is consistent with other October reports, including a hole by hole description of the course.





By December, with Geist now already talking about plans for another 18 holes at Seaview, and with having designed and built 3 courses in his spare time, and helping re-design two others at Philmont and North Hills, as well as having co-designed Cobb's Creek (on paper) after being on the committee that located that public course site, Hugh Wilson relinquishes his role as head of the Merion Greens Committee, citing the need to focus on business.



...more to come

[Bradley Anderson]

"Hugh Wilson relinquishes his role as head of the Merion Greens Committee, citing the need to focus on business."

That's code for his wife threatening to leave him if he doesn't spend more time with her. 

[Mike Cirba]

Brad,

Rumor is she swung a mean 9-iron.

[Mike Cirba]

All was now set for the big opening tournament.   With gall approaching the size of his ego, Geist declared that Atlantic City was now a year-round golf resort, and planned a multi-day tournament right in the middle of winter.

As Verdant Greene wrote in early January 1915;





That same month, in a Philadelphia story concerning the approval and go-ahead for construction for the proposed course at Cobb's Creek, author "Joe Bunker" again cites Hugh Wilson as the architect of Seaview;





All was ready for the big event;

[Mike Cirba]

The following excellent article talks a lot about the golf course and is the first menton of William Connellan (although misspelled).   Interestingly, the first mention of Connellan in American Golfer is also in the January 1915 account.














After the tournament, by the middle of January, Geist seems to already be contemplating additional changes to the course;

[Tom MacWood]

The evidence seems to point to Robinson as the man who laid out the golf course. Laid out in the modern sense that is, meaning routed the golf course. If there is anything that has been shown in the last year or two, laid out meant many different things to different people back then.

[Mike Cirba]

The evidence seems to point to Robinson as the man who laid out the golf course. Laid out in the modern sense that is, meaning routed the golf course. If there is anything that has been shown in the last year or two, laid out meant many different things to different people back then.

Tom,

That's certainly one possibility based on the evidence, but I'm a little surprised by your answer to by honest.

Haven't you been the one contending for years now that rich, smart guys like Geist, or HG Lloyd, wanted only the best and most expert people to do their work?    I'm not aware of Atlantic City pro William Robinson having done any design work prior, are you?

Why do you think Geist would have hired a total novice like Robinson to design a golf course that was to be his showpiece and landmark effort, an effort he sunk oodles of his own funds and entire personal golfing reputation into?   Don't you think he would have called in an expert, or experts??  

Robinson himself certainly seemed to have more sense.   Right from the git-go the very first article after the land was procured states that Robinson "has invited opinions of other experts..."  

Two months later, it seems clear that he has certainly had considerable design help in the actual routing or design of the holes.   In fact, it isn't even clear if he was involved in the routing at all;

"(the) course itself has been laid out by a number of experts who have had experience along those lines and the holes will possess all the variety of shots possible.."

It sounds to me like Geist put Robinson in charge and the first thing Robinson wisely did was solicit not only "advice", as in the case of Hugh Wilson at Merion, but also sought to directly engage experienced folks like perhaps Colt, or Bispham?, or Nichols, or perhaps Wilson and Pickering to actually lay out the holes for him.   I'm not sure if Bispham or Nichols had design experience at this or any juncture, are you?

I'm not sure why you apply a double-standard, Tom?   At Merion, where no one ever wrote that anyone other than Hugh Wilson actually laid out or designed the golf holes back then, but simply offered "valuable advice", you've contended for years that Hugh Wilson was too much of a novice to have actually done the routing himself.   If anyone had been involved other than Hugh Wilson would you have come to the same conclusion?  Not bloody likely, I'd venture.  

Yet here, when it's stated pretty clearly that the course was laid out by a number of experts with prior experience in these matters...unlike Robinson...you state that the evidence to you makes it pretty clear Robinson did the routing??    

After Seaview was completed, the Ocean City Country Club was building a new course and put Robinson in charge of construction of the Willie Park Jr. design, which is today's Greate Bay CC.   Had he designed the actual routing or holes at Seaview, a very prominent club, wouldn't he have been able to parlay that into a design career instead of working as construction chief, or is that where he had his only experience to date?   I'm unaware of any course related work he did after that time...do you know of others?

At what point do you think Wilson came to this project and what do you think he did when accounts by October 1913 stated that he had been Geist's right hand man and had laid out the golf course?   Why do you think nobody mentioned Robinson in that light after the first initial articles?

Don't you think based on that fact, as well as the clear evidence of everyone at the time writing that Hugh Wilson did the golf course, that it's not only logical but highly probable that a novice like Robinson would simply have been assigned the task of pulling things together but would then have relied on experts like Hugh Wilson, Fred Pickering, and others to actually route and design and build the golf course, based on their prior expertise exactly as the news articles state?

Clarence Geist, hailing from Chicago, certainly had many contacts in that city.   Who do you think the Chicago Tribune article is referring to when it states that "the course was laid out by one of the best golf architects"?    Do you think they are referring to William Robinson here?

[Tom MacWood]

Before you went to Atlantic City I thought it was pretty clear the course was laid out prior to Wilson becoming involved (Oct 1913), the only question in my mind was who originally laid out the course. After returning from AC nothing has been presented to change that impression, and the new evidence would seem to indicate Robinson was the man, which is consistent with Wilson's letter which stated Geist originally chose to go with local people...which was a dismal failure.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

By your interpretation, how could it make any sense in October 1913 for it to have been reported that "Wilson laid out the course" and has been Geist's right hand man?  

Are you saying he did this work in October 1913, the same month you claim he was brought onto the project?   That would have been pretty impressive, I'd have to say!  

You also are trying to damn things either way with your "dismal failure" comment, which is really beneath your usual objective historical insight in knowing how these early projects went.

At that juncture, the actual work of design and construction had only been going on since June of that year....Holy double standards, Batman!!  

These guys got a low-lying meadowland along the bay eighteen hole course designed, built, seeded, grown-in, and up and running from inception to member play in a year!!!, a course that all agreed had terrific greens and wonderful conditions that were among the best in the country.    They got it done despite having four holes washed away in a HURRICANE, during grow-in!!

Whether that was Wilson or Robinson, or whomever, there is no way on this earth that the Seaview project at that stage could be termed a "dismal failure", and your characterization methinks belies your subjective bias on this matter and indicative of your ABW (anybody but Wilson) architectural school of which you seem to be the Dean of Students.    

[Tom MacWood]

You've got to consider the source of that Oct 1913 article - William Evans. In that same article Evans said some years ago Wilson had travelled overseas to study the British golf courses before laying out Merion East. Actually that trip occurred just the year before, and after that course was laid out. Evans has been the source for a lot of confusion regarding Wilson, Merion and now Seaview.

[Mike Cirba]

You've got to consider the source of that Oct 1913 article - William Evans. In that same article Evans said some years ago Wilson had travelled overseas to study the British golf courses before laying out Merion East. Actually that trip occurred just the year before, and after that course was laid out. Evans has been the source for a lot of confusion regarding Wilson, Merion and now Seaview.

Tom,

Ahh...trying to throw out the Evans baby with the bathwater, I see.     You're pretty strangely selective in your choice of evidence, don't you think? 

Weren't you the one some years back who stated that the following article was talking about the "West" course at Merion as the one that had just been constructed earlier that year and was now in grow-in with a spring 1914 opening?   Your interpretation then would certainly throw a different spin on things if applied consistently, wouldn't it?   



Also, how does your timeilne explain the article you posted that gave Wilson credit for the greens.   If he didn't come into the project until October of 1914, well after the course was "laid out", why would he deserve any credit for any of the physical features that had to have been seeded by that time?



What do you think Wilson did at Seaview?   Apparently Robinson was the construction supervisor, at least at the initial stages.

Regarding Wilson's comment about a "dismal failure" in his letter of March 1914, he is talking about the attempt to reclaim the low-lying land that had been swept under during a hurricane where four holes had been lost in early January of that year.   He states that Geist "has tried to do some of this work under the advice of local people" but that this specific work has been a "dismal failure".   He is clearly not talking about the project as a whole, or about the design of the golf course, or any other facet of the project.




I think you need to go back and re-read those articles again, Tom, as your theories seem to be sinking in the meadow here, as welll.   

[Tom MacWood]

The second article from June 28, 1914 is related to the condition of the golf course and who was responsible for that condition, not the design. The compliment about the greens has to do with condition IMO, which was Wilson's forte, and we already know Robinson was heavily involved in the construction throughout the process. There is no evidence Wilson was involved when the course was laid out. Robinson was local and Robinson was involved at the beginning, which I believe is consistent with Wilson's letter. If you take the emotion out of this, and obviously that is easier said than done with your emotional investment in Wilson, I think it is pretty clear Robinson deserves credit for the original design.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I don’t think emotion has much to do with it…we went to Atlantic City expecting to find evidence of Harry Colt’s involvement in routing Seaview, and I’ve already conceded that one possibility based on the evidence to date is that first-time architectural novice William Robinson may have routed the course.   I’m simply presenting the evidence in context, in chronology, and in total and seeing where it goes.

I’m not sure how you can take a March 1914 letter to P&O about the attempt to reclaim former golf hole land swamped under by a January hurricane which states that “some of the (reclamation) work” was using local labor and try to extrapolate that to promote some idea that all of the design and construction work for Seaview was done by locals, in what seems a pretty transparent attempt to promote Robinson to the purposeful exclusion of Wilson.

I just think your rush to judgment to name William Robinson as the designer of Seaview flies in the face of your long-stated earlier contention that 1) Rich, smart businessmen like Clarence Geist did not entrust their most valued projects to inexperienced novices, and 2) that the most contemporaneous of the articles to the time of project inception in 1913 indicates that Robinson invited experts to provide input and that “the course itself has been laid out by a number of golf experts who have had experience along those lines”, which certainly would not have described Robinson at that time.

Certainly, your contention that Wilson himself did not get involved at Seaview until October 1913 also has no evidentiary foundation but your hunch, and belies the oft-repeated statements written at that time and afterwards that Wilson “laid out” the course, under any definition you choose to apply.   Even if you assume that “laid out” meant only the construction of the golf course to someone else’s plans, by October 1913 that work had already been completed, and seeding of the course done, and it was in the beginning stage of “grow-in”.   Why would anyone either at that juncture, or later then state that he had laid out the course?   Certainly Wilson would have taken steps to correct that misassumption, no?

Your attempt to devalue the opinion and reporting accuracy of William Evans is odd, because you certainly have to include others under your bus.   For instance, in January 1914 in a completely different newspaper, golf writer “Billy Bunker” reported the following;



As shown ad infinitum by now, this was also reported by other writers of the time.

Finally, by 1917, this somewhat in-depth article about Seaview again claimed that Wilson laid out the course.   I’m not sure who “Peter Putter” is, but why do you think word of Wilson as the course author spread so quickly among knowledgeable Philadelphia golf writers of the time?   Why do you think attribution to Robinson as seen in the earliest of articles quickly diminished?

[Tom MacWood]

The Billy Bunker article seems consistent with Wilson's construction role on those projects. It appears to me BB is differentiating between built and designed. Its difficult to know what Peter Putter meant in 1917 by 'laid out' based on that single sentence.

IMO it is pretty cut and dried, if Wilson was not involved at the beginning, when the course was routed, he should not be credited for the design. Are there any contemporaneous reports that show Wilson was involved prior to Oct 1913?

[Mike Cirba]

Yeah, Tom...construction foremen were all the rage in the press in those days, just like today!  I suppose that's why they even called them architects in those same articles.  

Who would you say designed Merion West, o self-appointed attributor of historic design?  

Or should we start calling you Karnac the Magnificent and base all of our history on the wisdom and accuracy of your hunches?  

[Tom MacWood]

Yeah Tom...construction foremen were all the rage in the press in those days, just like today!  I suppose that's why they even called them architects in those ame articles. 

As you well know construction men were given a fair amount of press back then; there were plenty of articles mentioning the good work done by guys like Fred Pickering, Robert White, Billy Bell, Dean Woods, Robert Hunter, Tom Winton, William Flynn, Leonard Macomber, Peter Lees and others. You've posted some of those articles yourself.

[Mike Cirba]

As you well know construction men were given a fair amount of press back then; there were plenty of articles mentioning the good work done by guys like Fred Pickering, Robert White, Billy Bell, Dean Woods, Robert Hunter, Tom Winton, William Flynn, Leonard Macomber, Peter Lees and others. You've posted some of those articles yourself.

Tom,

Perhaps the hard-core golf press devoted some ink to the constructionmen, but when an architect of a course was known, the general news sources would rarely be interested in anyone but the person receiving top billing and that was the architect.  Also, of the men you mentioned nearly all of them were known generally for their architectural works much more than any construction prowess among golfers.

How much press did NGLA's construction foreman receive?

Also, as relates to all the jobs in question, the construction foremen were already clearly identified and known and they weren't Hugh Wilson.  

Why would Hugh Wilson later say he assigned Fred Pickering to lead construction at Seaview if Wilson was already the construction foreman?  Why would Hugh Wilson even have the authority to do that in the first place?

Who do you think designed Merion West?

[Tom MacWood]

Most every major construction project had a hierarchy back then, for example Hunter and Fleming at CPC or H.Wilson and Pickering at Merion or Gordon and D.Wilson at Shinnecock. These three examples have a common theme, a construction man has either claimed credit for the design or someone else has given him credit. I think by now we know erroneous attributions were not that uncommon.  

In the case of Seaview its pretty simple in my view, there is no evidence Wilson was involved at the time of the course was laid out therefore he shouldn't be given credit. Have you found any contemporaneous reports that suggest Wilson was involved in the beginning?

[Tom MacWood]

By the way other than that letter in the P&O archives (ten years after the fact) I've seen no evidence Pickering was involved in the construction of Seaview. in fact early in 1915 he was being credited for the construction of the newly unveiled Pittsburgh Field Club. The other thing that doesn't make sense about that letter, why would Seaview hire Pickering as their greenkeeper after they had just fired him, a year or two earlier, for drunkeness? Something doesn't add up about that letter.

[Joe Bausch]

In this Feb, 1915 article from the Gloucester Country Democrat, Pickering is again mentioned at Seaview:

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