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Rob Rigg

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Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« on: December 29, 2009, 01:37:15 AM »
As another decade closes and, at least based on the Unofficial GCA rankings and sentiments of the tree house, it looks like we have two modern firms in Doak (Renaissance) and C&C that might be able to contend with the old masters, along with some other firms or archies that have done great work in the past 20 years that has been internationally recognized - Kidd, Phillips, Hanse, DeVries, etc.

How do MacKenzie, Tilly, Old Tom, etc. compare with their "best decade"?

This is a completely subjective question - obviously - times change, technology changes, knowledge evolves (at least in theory) so it is impossible to make precise comparisons but we can talk about portfolios over a given decade.

So what architect has had the best decade and what are their three to five bodies of work that support your claim?

eg)
- Doak - 2000 to 2009 - Pac Dunes, Ballyneal, Cape Kid, RC3, Barnbougle
- C&C - 2000 to 2009 -  Clear Creek Tahoe, Bandon Trails, Friars Head, Colorado GC, Old Sandwich
- MacKenzie - 1920 to 1930 - Cypress Point, Pasatiempo, Royal Melbourne, Lahinch, Valley Club
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Phil_the_Author

Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2009, 07:15:11 AM »
Tillinghast 1920-29:

Baltusrol Upper & Lower (5 US Opens, 2 Women's Opens, 2 US Amateurs, 1 PGA Championship & 1 future PGA)
Baltimore CC 5 Farms (1 US Amateur, 1 US Women's Open & 1 PGA Championship)
Fenimore (Fenway)
Fresh Meadow CC (1 US Open & 1 PGA Championship)
Ridgewood CC (1 Ryder Cup, 1 US Amateur, 1 US Senior Open, I US Senior Amateur, 1 Senior PGA Championship) 
Winged Foot East & West (5 US Opens, 2 US Amateurs, 2 US Women's Opens, 1 US Senior Open & 1 PGA Championship)
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Kevin Pallier

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2009, 08:03:33 AM »
Rob

Wasn't Crystal Downs a late 1920's design re: Mackenzie and Maxwell ?
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Chris_Clouser

Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2009, 08:12:03 AM »
Maxwell 1929-39

Original designs:  Crystal Downs and U of M with Mackenzie, Prairie Dunes original 9, Southern Hills, Old Town, Initial design of Colonial with John Bredemus

Notable Renovations:  Pine Valley, Augusta National, Philly CC, Rockaway, Gulph Mills
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Matt Bosela

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2009, 09:44:53 AM »
I'll take a crack with some Canadian content:

Stanley Thompson 1922-1931

Highland Country Club 1922
Niakwa Golf & Country Club 1922
Shoreacres Golf Course 1922
Cedar Brook Golf & Country Club 1922
St. Thomas Golf & Country Club 1922
Uplands Golf & Country Club 1922
Thornhill Golf & Country Club 1922
Islington Golf & Country Club 1923
Bayview Golf & Country Club 1923
Sleepy Hollow Golf & Country Club 1923
Burlington Golf & Country Club 1923
Jasper Park Lodge Golf Course 1924
Big Bay Point Golf Course 1924
The Toronto Ladies Golf Course 1924
St. Andrew’s Golf Course 1925
Oakdale Golf & Country Club 1926
Mayfair Golf & Country Club 1927
Banff Springs Hotel Golf Course 1927
Allandale Golf Course 1928
St. Georges Golf & Country Club 1928
Waterloo Golf & Country Club 1929
Digby Pines Resort 1929
Waterloo (now Galt) Golf & Country Club 1929
Brampton Golf & Country Club 1929
Dundas Valley Golf & Country Club 1929
Oshawa Golf & Country Club 1929
Seigniory Club (at Chateau Montebello) 1929
Peterborough Golf & Country Club 1930
Brockville Golf & Country Club 1930
Constant Springs Golf Course 1930
Catarqui Golf & Country Club 1930
Westmount Golf & Country Club 1931
Kawartha Golf & Country Club 1931

A large volume of work, yes, but the quality here is astounding too.
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2009, 10:20:03 AM »
With all due respect to our living golf architects, it's hard to pick any one but Dr Mackenzie and the
'20s, the Golden Age of golf course design,  He worked on four continents in the age of steamship travel.  Royal Melbourne, Cypress Point, the Valley Club, Pasatiempo, Crystal Dunes, Augusta National, the Jockey Club....
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Mac Plumart

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2009, 10:29:52 AM »
I must say Tom's work and Coore and Crenshaw's work is impressive...

but seeing Mackenzie, Tillinghast, Thompson, etc...WOW!!!

Mind bottling!  ;)
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Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jim Colton

Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2009, 11:09:03 AM »
Rob,

As much I love Tommy D's work, A-Mac is hard to beat.

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Garland Bayley

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2009, 11:13:15 AM »
Can we add The Dormie Club to this decade? Last I saw there was indications it would be open by Thanksgiving this year.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jud_T

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2009, 11:27:59 AM »
How about Donald Ross 1920-1929

Teugaga
Lancaster
Aronomink
Metacomet
Sakonnet
Wannamoisett
Belle Meade
Holston Hills
Essex
Bald Peak
Salem
Pittsfield
Orchards
Oak Hill
Wampanoag
Lake Wales
Seminole
Augusta C.C.
French Lick
Shawnee
Inverness
Wykagle
Whipporwill
Plainfield
Kobe Valley
Penobscott Valley
Portland
Franklin Hills
Gross Ile
Oakland Hills
Interlachen
Asheville
Cape Fear
Carolina
Charlotte
Grove Park
Linville
Mid-Pines
Pine Needles
Pinehurst #2 (1903-1946)
Roaring Gap
Southern Pines

amongst others!
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Rob Rigg

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2009, 12:38:41 PM »
Quote from: Kevin Pallier on December 29, 2009, 08:03:33 AM
Rob

Wasn't Crystal Downs a late 1920's design re: Mackenzie and Maxwell ?

Kevin,

I looked at the MacKenzie site and read it as 1929 completion which is why I included it.

All,

I was trying to go for 0 to 9 decades, making it harder to pick and choose - eg) 1925 to 1935

Totally agree that when you look at the number of courses completed by some of the golden age guys it is amazing - but what if you are only limited to their top 5 for any decade?

Jim,

A-Mac is the guy for me as well. Although, I love Stanley as well.
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Garland Bayley

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2009, 02:58:37 PM »
Quote from: Jud Tigerman on December 29, 2009, 11:27:59 AM
How about Donald Ross 1920-1929

Teugaga
Lancaster
Aronomink
Metacomet
Sakonnet
Wannamoisett
Belle Meade
Holston Hills
Essex
Bald Peak
Salem
Pittsfield
Orchards
Oak Hill
Wampanoag
Lake Wales
Seminole
Augusta C.C.
French Lick
Shawnee
Inverness
Wykagle
Whipporwill
Plainfield
Kobe Valley
Penobscott Valley
Portland
Franklin Hills
Gross Ile
Oakland Hills
Interlachen
Asheville
Cape Fear
Carolina
Charlotte
Grove Park
Linville
Mid-Pines
Pine Needles
Pinehurst #2 (1903-1946)
Roaring Gap
Southern Pines

amongst others!

As we all know, Ross often had minimal involvement in the building of his courses, which allowed so many to be built. If you take the top n of Ross's output from the decade and match them to all n courses by Doak in the last decade, does not Doak come out on top?
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jud_T

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2009, 03:02:55 PM »
Probably, but not by a huge margin....
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JMEvensky

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2009, 03:10:47 PM »
Quote from: Philip Young on December 29, 2009, 07:15:11 AM
Tillinghast 1920-29:

Baltusrol Upper & Lower (5 US Opens, 2 Women's Opens, 2 US Amateurs, 1 PGA Championship & 1 future PGA)
Baltimore CC 5 Farms (1 US Amateur, 1 US Women's Open & 1 PGA Championship)
Fenimore (Fenway)
Fresh Meadow CC (1 US Open & 1 PGA Championship)
Ridgewood CC (1 Ryder Cup, 1 US Amateur, 1 US Senior Open, I US Senior Amateur, 1 Senior PGA Championship) 
Winged Foot East & West (5 US Opens, 2 US Amateurs, 2 US Women's Opens, 1 US Senior Open & 1 PGA Championship)

Philip,no QR?
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Phil_the_Author

Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2009, 03:29:20 PM »
JM, wrong decade... QR was 1918...
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JMEvensky

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2009, 03:39:12 PM »
Quote from: Philip Young on December 29, 2009, 03:29:20 PM
JM, wrong decade... QR was 1918...

My bad.I just grabbed an old Golf Week list which says 1926.Regarding all things AWT,I'll defer to you.
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PThomas

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2009, 03:48:21 PM »
our fearless ::)  ;) leader at the close of his Ballyneal review:

"In a seven year period, Renaissance Design as worked on five of the world's most spectacular sites...Pacific Dunes...Barnbougle Dunes...Cape Kidnappers...here at Hoyloke, and finally Sebonack......but there is no arguing that ...Alister MacKenzie is the only othr golf course architect to have built five courses of such world class quality in such a short period of time."
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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

mike_malone

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2009, 03:58:04 PM »
 We need Wayne Morrison to pick Flynn's ten best years , but my guess is it would be the early 20's to the early 30's.
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Phil_the_Author

Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2009, 03:59:03 PM »
Paul,

In all deference to our fearless leader, but can you name another architect besides Tilly who designed 5 golf clubs that oopened in less than 8 years that have hosted 31 US Opens, Amateurs, Womens Opens, PGA Championships, Ryder Cups & Senior championships?

As spectacular as Tom's designs are, they have a long way to go to match the historical significance of the championships played at just those 5 Tilly clubs. Understand, I am not saying that Tilly's work is better or not, just that there are measuring sticks and measuring sticks...

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PThomas

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2009, 04:08:05 PM »
Quote from: Philip Young on December 29, 2009, 03:59:03 PM
Paul,

In all deference to our fearless leader, but can you name another architect besides Tilly who designed 5 golf clubs that oopened in less than 8 years that have hosted 31 US Opens, Amateurs, Womens Opens, PGA Championships, Ryder Cups & Senior championships?

As spectacular as Tom's designs are, they have a long way to go to match the historical significance of the championships played at just those 5 Tilly clubs. Understand, I am not saying that Tilly's work is better or not, just that there are measuring sticks and measuring sticks...



Hi Philip....and i am not saying i agree with Ran's statement, necessarily...i'd have to sit down and think about it....

i understand your point , of course....but one must also consider that there are lots more courses now to hold championships on and that over time some of Tom's might hold some tournaments

this is a kind of nitpicking in my mind, anyway......we should just all be grateful that these talented men have designed so many great courses!
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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Dale Jackson

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2009, 05:17:33 PM »
Quote from: Philip Young on December 29, 2009, 03:59:03 PM
Paul,

In all deference to our fearless leader, but can you name another architect besides Tilly who designed 5 golf clubs that oopened in less than 8 years that have hosted 31 US Opens, Amateurs, Womens Opens, PGA Championships, Ryder Cups & Senior championships?

As spectacular as Tom's designs are, they have a long way to go to match the historical significance of the championships played at just those 5 Tilly clubs. Understand, I am not saying that Tilly's work is better or not, just that there are measuring sticks and measuring sticks...



Philip, there is no questioning Tilly's influence, and it is especially impressive from the list you gave earlier in this thread.  I also agree with your comment on "historical significance".

However, to your comment about "there measuring sticks and then there are ...  "

At this point, and I suspect for his career, TDs work cannot be considered against the measuring stick of major championships because that is not what his courses are aimed at.  He designs for the vast majority of amateur golfers, not for the less than 1% of elite golfers.

Pacific Dunes and Old MacDonald will never host a Mens Open or PGA (or Women's Open or Mens Amateur, I suspect).  His work in other countries obviously will never be able to meet that test.

I am not saying Tom's courses are better than Tilly's or worse, such a discussion does nothing except take away from the greatness of both designers' work.  But to compare on the basis of major championships is comparing apples to oranges.

I am sure TD can speak for himself on this as well!   (Oops, as he clearly did and our posts crossed paths)

« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 05:32:25 PM by Dale Jackson »
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I've seen an architecture, something new, that has been in my mind for years and I am glad to see a man with A.V. Macan's ability to bring it out. - Gene Sarazen

Tom_Doak

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2009, 05:19:42 PM »
Okay, Phil, we have a plane at our disposal tomorrow:  should we go play Cape Kidnappers or Baltusrol?  ;)

By the standard of championships hosted, Nicklaus and Rees Jones are clearly the architects of the decade, and Bill Coore and I are just punters.  Of course, I don't really care about championships much.

I have said many times before that I don't think it's even a reasonable discussion to try and rank "greatest architects" and such.  It's our work that matters.  I hope that some of the courses I have built are still as well looked after in eighty years' time as those of Tillinghast, Ross and MacKenzie.  But I'll also bet that if Tillinghast were alive today, he would wish he'd been able to work in Bandon, in the chop hills, or in New Zealand and Tasmania, just as much as I would have liked to have a site in Westchester County.
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Matt_Ward

Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2009, 06:07:48 PM »
I think it's fair to say that the staging of major championships rests on a number of elements -- the quality of the actual architecture is among them but there have been numerous majors played at various sites over the years that were marginal, if not lower, from a design pedigree indeed.

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Kevin Pallier

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2009, 06:39:07 PM »
Quote from: Rob Rigg on December 29, 2009, 01:37:15 AM
- MacKenzie - 1920 to 1930 - Cypress Point, Pasatiempo, Royal Melbourne, Lahinch, Valley Club

Rob

Correct me if I'm wrong - but I don't see Crystal Downs in your original list for Mackenzie  ;)
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mike_malone

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Re: Greatest GCA of all time based on 1 decade of work and why?
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2009, 06:56:41 PM »
Flynn designed (not all courses were opened for play) or significantly redesigned the following courses between 1920 and 1930:


Atlantic City CC !!!
Bala CC !
Beaver Dam !
Boca Raton North !!  (NLE)
Boca Raton South  !!!!!  (NLE)
Cascades GC !!!
Cherry Hills CC !!
Cleveland Heights !
Columbia CC !!
Concord CC !
Creek Club !!
Denver CC !!! (not fully implemented -- but what a redesign!)
Eagles Mere Old !!
Eagles Mere New !!!  (NLE)
Elyria !
Homestead Old !
Huntingdon Valley CC !!!!
Indian Creek CC !!!!
Kittansett GC !!!.5
Lancaster CC !!!!
Lehigh CC !!!
Manor CC !!
Manufacturers GCC !!!
Marble Hall !!
Mill Road Farm !!!!  (NLE)
Merion East !!!!!
Merion West !!!
Opa Locka !!!  (NLE)
Overbrook ! (NLE)
Pepper Pike Club !!
Philadelphia Country Club !!!
Philadelphia Cricket Club !!
Pine Meadow !
Plymouth CC !
Pocono Manor !
Rock Creek Park !
Rolling Green GC !!!.5
Sewell's Point !!
Springdale !!
Springhaven !
Sunnybrook !! (NLE)
The Country Club, Brookline !!!
The Country Club, Pepper Pike !!!.5
Town and Country !
Woodcrest !
Woodmont !
Yorktown Lake !!
Yorktown River !!




 List and exclamations provided by Wayne Morrison


   DUH!!  He forgot  Shinnecock designed in 1929, opened for play 1931. Which he gives !!!!!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 07:06:46 PM by mike_malone »
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