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Matt_Ward

Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2009, 07:53:22 PM »
Mac:

I meant Apache Stronghold in Arizona. Plenty of people on this site rave about the design -- I am one of them -- but many of these same people also rave about the course even when conditions reach a deplorable level for what a course of that standing should have. Please realize I am not advocating anything remotely close to ANGC but conditioning that allows for the existing design elements to shine. That didn't happen for me in my last two visits to AS -- although on the first visit it was doable.

Mac, one cannot and should not "ignore" conditioning. The game of golf is not some sort of theoretical exercise but one in which the turf plays a major influence on how golf shots react to what is there. I've played too many courses where the expression of, "great layout but sh*tty condition is used. One cannot divorce conditioning as some sort of added bonus -- it is an element that plays a clear supporting role of importance. Just remember I said "supporting" role. I am not "confused" when the matter of design / conditioning is brought into the picture though I agree w M Young's comments on how others might view it. But I don't give courses a 100% free pass to be nothing more than dirt and weeds but then are treated royally because of a design element alone.

Mac, an average course with great conditioning is still an average course -- it's the ones with top quality designs that are the ones I am speaking about and which would gain the most from such an attention to detail.

Garland:

Thanks for the clarification in regards to CB -- I've never been there. My comments on conditioning are tied to what others have said about the course. Keep in mind, from what I can glean from your own comments -- you see conditioning in general terms as much less of a issue for consideration and it might be possible -- I say might be -- that you can endure certain elements tied to conditioning or the lack thereof when CB or any other course is discussed.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2009, 08:27:57 PM »
I think that it is a credit to Renaissance Golf and Coore/Crenshaw that their creations do create such debate.

I cannot wait to see Kinloch.  It seems to have more diagonal hazards that slice through fairways than any other course I've seen.

I wish Ballyhack would put a legitimate course tour on its website.  That 2nd hole and 4th hole virtual thing just didn't do it for me.

I agree with Ian that MPCC-Shore should be considered a new course.  We'll see it in a month and a half at the Crosby...err, I mean that ATT.

I find it amazing that Sebonack even merits inclusion, given the apparently contrasting architectural tendencies of the principals involved.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2009, 08:43:36 PM »
I'm just a little suprised that there's only been a single, incidental, mention of Calusa Pines (2001).  What other "Best of the Decade" contenders are attributable to Hurdzan & Fry? 

There have been a lot of fine nominees!  This has been a pretty good decade for golf course design -- thank you very much, Tom Doak, Ben Crenshaw, & Co.!

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2009, 10:08:24 AM »
Rock Creek should be #1.
Mr Hurricane

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2009, 11:18:11 AM »
James,

Kingsbarns officially opened for play in July of 2000. That having been said, it still is of the last decade of the 20th century; in fact the end of the first decade of the 21st century won't be until December 31st of 2010...

This "best of the decade" stuff is simply a year early...

Philip,

Its the old debate that came about at the turn of the millennium as well  ::) I agree with you, but the vast majority all seem to think its this year, so I tend to go with the flow...

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2009, 08:33:45 PM »
IMO, Stone Eagle outdoes Sebonack. I don't get the GCA adulation for Sebonack at all.

Matt_Ward

Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2009, 08:48:18 PM »
 jkinney:

You say Stone Eagle is over Sebonack.

Can you elaborate - quick one sentence declarative judgements need a bit more beef to them.

thanks ...

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #57 on: December 31, 2009, 09:16:12 PM »
Matt - IMO great courses have homogeneity in both land and design. Sebonack is two different pieces of ground with two different architects. Mumbo jumbo is the result to my eye. That's how I see and sense Sebonack. It's a pleasant place, for sure, but not great.
Back tomorrow to discuss more. Hasta luega.

Matt_Ward

Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2009, 09:40:03 PM »
jkinney:

Interesting element you mentioned -- homogeneity in land and in design. Like for you to explain yourself in greater detail than the vague general statements you mentioned.

Sebonack does have some stellar land and frankly it's not as harsh as Stone Eagle in that regard. When you say Sebonack is not great please explain when time allows the "mumbo jumbo" statement is also a fascinating one. I'd say from the layouts I have played that Sebonack is good bit more than simply "a pleasant place to play."

Look forward to more discussion on that ...

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2009, 10:10:06 PM »
Matt - IMO great courses have homogeneity in both land and design. Sebonack is two different pieces of ground with two different architects. Mumbo jumbo is the result to my eye. That's how I see and sense Sebonack. It's a pleasant place, for sure, but not great.
Back tomorrow to discuss more. Hasta luega.

Jkinney--

It's not my intention to hijack this thread, but you're comment brings up an interesting question.  What are your views of Cypress Point and Bandon Trails?  There is nothing homogeneous about the land on either course.

I will agree with you that Stone Eagle is REALLY good and the course that made me really appreciate Tom Doak's talent.  It's not difficult to build a great course on a great piece of property, but when you can build an excellent golf course on THAT site, that takes some real talent. 

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the Alotian Club. 

Matt_Ward

Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2009, 10:15:14 PM »
Adam:

It was mentioned previously by Andy T.

One can make a point that having a course that used different land forms / shape / elements into one complete package says more than simply working from one uniform area.


Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #61 on: January 01, 2010, 08:50:13 AM »
Matt--

You make a good point and that's where my question to jkinney was headed.  The genius of MacKenzie at Cypress and C & C at BT is the fact they were able to take a very heterogeneous piece of property and turn it into an outstanding golf course that works and flows through the different types of terrain well.   

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #62 on: January 01, 2010, 11:28:12 AM »
Matt & Adam - I've not played BT or Friars, so can't comment on C&C's use of different land forms within an 18 hole course, (though I've heard nothing but praise for both). In the case of CP, I don't ever get the feeling on the inland holes that I've left the seaside ground. A lot of that has to do with lack of altitude change. The sea air comes in; the flora doesn't seem to vary, and the sand waste areas continue.

Stone Eagle's land, I would argue, was a natural for a Doak masterpiece. The ground is in its own enclosed valley, and the only rock blasting needed was for the 6th fairway. One sees many of the holes from most of the holes (one of the essentials of great ground for me).

Sebonack's ground, in contrast to Stone Eagle's, is highly problematic, from my point of view, because it slopes downhill from west to east off a high bayside bluff, thus hiding the interior of the course from the bay. The holes at clubhouse level are marvelous; those below can't possibly match them. This is not to say that the owners haven't created a wonderful club - they have indeed. I'm only saying that I find Stone Eagle to be far superior ground and a better design. I suspect also that either Nicklaus or Doak might have done better by themselves on Sebonack. That we'll never know.

Matt_Ward

Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #63 on: January 01, 2010, 02:47:20 PM »
jkinney:

I too share a great fondness for Stone Eagle. Tough site that Doak and team did a stellar job in getting so much out of it.

I'd be eager to match any hole combo's from the two courses -- people can make something out of the Nicklaus / Doak pairing but Sebonack has plenty of tour de force holes that would easily make the short list for many people -- myself included.

The par-4 2nd there and the par-4 11th are two of LI's very best and that is only two holes of note.

Be curious to see how you stack Stone Eagle up against the likes of Pacific Dunes ?

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #64 on: January 01, 2010, 02:59:50 PM »
for public I'll say Pacific, Tobacco Road, Black Mesa, and Chambers Bay.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #65 on: January 01, 2010, 03:31:28 PM »
jkinney:

I too share a great fondness for Stone Eagle. Tough site that Doak and team did a stellar job in getting so much out of it.

I'd be eager to match any hole combo's from the two courses -- people can make something out of the Nicklaus / Doak pairing but Sebonack has plenty of tour de force holes that would easily make the short list for many people -- myself included.

The par-4 2nd there and the par-4 11th are two of LI's very best and that is only two holes of note.

Be curious to see how you stack Stone Eagle up against the likes of Pacific Dunes ?

Matt - Sebonack's 2nd & 11th are among the clubhouse level holes that I referred to as marvelous. The east side of the course is what I find problematic.

How do I stack Stone Eagle up against Pacific Dunes ? One's a great apple; the other's a great orange - both world class. Love 'em both and could play each every day.


Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #66 on: January 01, 2010, 03:43:55 PM »
for public I'll say Pacific, Tobacco Road, Black Mesa, and Chambers Bay.

TR opened in 1998.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #67 on: January 01, 2010, 05:18:21 PM »
Extand the relevent time period out to 1998 and I'll include it.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Matt_Ward

Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #68 on: January 01, 2010, 05:37:25 PM »
jkinney:

I hear what you say -- but you need to tell me what other holes on the front are really not good.

Let me point out the following solid holes

The 1st is a good opener -- #2 is an all-world hole for me -- #3 is a solid counterpoint to what you get at #2 -- the 4th is a very underrated par-3 -- the 5th is a good short par-4, the 6th is solid going back up the hill -- the 7th is tough long par-4 plunging down the hill, the 8th is the only out-of-place hole for me -- looks more like a FL hole than one on LI -- the par-5 9th though is a stellar ending hole for the side -- plenty of birdie and bogey opportunities there.

The 10th thru 13th is well done -- each is just striking. The 14th thru 16th is no less well done in my mind, in fact I think the 16th has become better because of the tee / distance extension there.

You then have the closing two holes which bring the golfer home in grand fashion. I would not personally have Sebonack among my personal top 25 in the USA but it clearly has the goods to be among my personal top 50 in the USA. The Nicklaus/Doak combo is
not a hodge-podge that is out-of-place and if I have missed something on the holes there please let me know.

In regards to Stone Eagle -- I have nothing bad to say about the place. Just a wonderful layout that has provided a clear reason for people to head to PS for the winter -- like they didn't have plenty of reasons already.

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #69 on: January 01, 2010, 07:44:23 PM »
Matt - 4 through 7 do nothing for me. 4 could have been a great redan. 5 has a super green complex but way too many fairway bunkers. 6 has a huge tree guarding the left front of the green that's way too close. 7 I found flat boring. The water on the short 8th was actually a visual relief for me after the previous four. But it was the change in the ground from 4 on that bothered me the most after the great clubhouse level opening holes. I sensed that we were descending into uninspiring parkland. I could hardly wait to hit my driver back up the hill on 9. The same feeling came over me in the middle section of the back nine. The aesthetics just weren't there for me in those downhill eastern sections of the course. Mind you.... I'm judging Sebonack against its two immediate neighbors, and Sebonack's ground just isn't as good, IMO.
Does it fit in the 'hood ? Absolutely. Sebonack's a welcome addition to the Southampton scene, and it's Founders should be praised.

Matt_Ward

Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #70 on: January 01, 2010, 08:02:13 PM »
jkinney:

You say 4 through 7 do nothing for you. Really ?

#4 doesn't need to be a redan -- try hitting the target when the prevailing SW wind is hitting you squarley in the face -- plenty of unique internal contours as well. The 5th is a solid short par-4 and the uphill 6th plays well with the blind landing area.

I can name certain holes at Stone Eagle that are quite so-so. The first is a good example of that for me. The drop shot par-3 are also quite formulaic.

You also hold Sebonack to a standard of being comparable to Shinnecock and NGLA. That's a bit much -- don't you think? My God -- Shinny is almost always in a top five worldwide and NGLA is almost always in a top ten or top 15. If Sebonack cannot crack that level it doesn't mean the course is chop liver. Frankly, Sebonack, if NOT located near those two would likely get even more attention and fanfare.

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 10 Courses This Decade?
« Reply #71 on: January 01, 2010, 08:14:29 PM »
Matt - We each ave our own opinions. That's what makes a horse race.....and what makes GCA so interesting. Hasta la vista.