[Jeff_Brauer]

Chris,

I like the alternate design that Hearne did at Flossmoor, at least from the pix.  With that bail out left, I think many would opt to chip from the safe fw in windy conditions. I think the bunkers front, rigtht and back could perhaps be a little deeper since having no bail out and deep bunkers was part of the mental aspect of the original short holes.  But, IMHO, leaving a bail out is stronger conceptually than a pure short.  Of course, you could argue that the 9000 SF green CBM put on those short holes kind of made the middle of the green the bail out area.

[Sean_A]

I had never really thought about it before, but I spose Beau Desert's 10th is a Short.  There is a deep fronting trench bunker and falloffs on three sides with a pronounced two tier green.  I think its about 140 from the tips.  It would make sense in the context of the 7th being a Redan. 

Perhaps more remarkable about Beau's par 3s is I don't think any are over 170 and three are nearly the same length.  Incredibly, all three are very different and I reckon folks would have to stand back to realize just how similar in yardage they are.

Ciao

[Kevin Pallier]

The thread has united two elements of one-shot holes...the "Short" template hole of CB MacDonald/Seth Raynor and short holes in general.  It is true that many of the holes do not fit (nor were they designed in the image of) the "Short" template hole.  What happened along the way is, some of us pined for the lost pitch hole, focusing as much on (lack of) distance as styling.  It is probably important, scholarly body that we are, that we maintain the distinction between the two strands of the thread.

Jim picked up on this and Ronald has emphasised same.

I enjoy short P3's however as a student of the game I was hoping to talk more about the template "Short" P3's of the Macdonald / Raynor style holes ? Chicago was certainly one mentioned as was Brancaster - others ?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

At about 137, the 13th at Pine Tree is one of the great short par 3's in golf, especially since there's usually a good breeze.

Tom Doak and Jeff Brauer,

Should the penalty for missing a short par 3 be severe ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

In general yes, but I still think that providing a bail out like Flossmoor makes the decision to aim at the pin a bit harder, knowing there is an easy bogey and possible par, with a worse score possible if in the bunkers.

[James Boon]

I had never really thought about it before, but I spose Beau Desert's 10th is a Short.  There is a deep fronting trench bunker and falloffs on three sides with a pronounced two tier green.  I think its about 140 from the tips.  It would make sense in the context of the 7th being a Redan. 

Perhaps more remarkable about Beau's par 3s is I don't think any are over 170 and three are nearly the same length.  Incredibly, all three are very different and I reckon folks would have to stand back to realize just how similar in yardage they are.

Ciao

Sean,

From memory (there wasn't a picture of 10 on your photo tour thread), the 10th at Beau does fit the bill as a "Short" hole? The interesting thing for me is that I've always played it when they have moved the tee forward to the right hand ladies tee, so its only about 90 yards from there. With 9 as a 260 yard par 4 and then 10 as a 90 yard par 3, it screams of low scoring, but both have tricky greens that can catch you out if you aren't careful. Thats the real joy of these short or "short" holes, the expectation of a birdie but the reality of a bogey if you try and be too cute...

Cheers,

James

[Phil McDade]

Chris,

I like the alternate design that Hearne did at Flossmoor, at least from the pix.  With that bail out left, I think many would opt to chip from the safe fw in windy conditions. I think the bunkers front, rigtht and back could perhaps be a little deeper since having no bail out and deep bunkers was part of the mental aspect of the original short holes.  But, IMHO, leaving a bail out is stronger conceptually than a pure short.  Of course, you could argue that the 9000 SF green CBM put on those short holes kind of made the middle of the green the bail out area.

Jeff:

When I played Flossmoor this summer, I was struck by what appeared to be Hearn's intentional aim to buiild a version of a classic "Short;" the hole replaced a similar-length par 3 that was viewed as having a very small (600 sq ft) pinnable area. The new 13th -- with the caveat that I've only played it once, in conditions with little wind -- seemed like an easy green to hit (esp. compared to some of the other Flossmoor greens, which are quite small), but very tricky to putt, depending on where you land your shot. It's a green with distinct tiers, and placing the tee shot on the green doesn't guarantee a par, as three putts strike me as a real possibility (I think I three-putted it!). In that regard, I think it emulates the classic features of a Short.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Jeff,

I believe that most agree that Par 3's are the strictest or purest form of "target golf"

Short Par 3's, those with yardages in the 130's and lower, would seem to have as their primary defense, a small target area/hole location

If the penalty for missing that target area/hole location isn't penal, how challenging can the hole be ?

And, why would you offer and alternate "bail out" area on a hole of such short length (130's and under) ?

It doesn't make sense to me.
It's allowing the golfer to be inaccurate from a short distance without burdening/challenging him on the tee, and without punishing him for begin so inaccurate on a short, relatively benign shot.

I think one of the positive attributes of CBM/SR/CB "shorts", were their elevated nature.

That feature, the elevation, accompanied by steep banks, makes them ferocious for their distance.

While I really like internal contouring on "shorts", I think the truncated volcano like structure, the elevation accompanied by steep slopes leading to bunkering is really THE key feature, more than anything else.

Your thoughts ?

[Jud_T]

uh hello!

scariest 133 yarder (regular tees) I've played...The fact that it hasn't been mentioned here yet means that either everyone is on vacation or has drunk entirely too much egg nog....

[Tim Nugent]

I'm surprised no one has really discussed how wind can be a determinate factor in deciding whether or not a short hole can work.  I used to play in a evening league at an ave public course.  But it had a good set of shortish one shotters. The one hole I loved played with a backing wind in a chute over a long pond set about 10-15' below the green.  The difficult thing was to gage how much to underclub due to the pushing wind without taking too much off and ending up short.  A wedge or 9 iron would put the ball up high where the wind would act on it for as long as it was up there (hang time).  Or you could try a punch or knock-down but with the wind at your back, these could fly and get away from you.
I think for a short hole to be effective, it has to have some means to place doubt or question in the mind of the player by making him play a shot he is uncomfortable with. 

[James Boon]

I'm surprised no one has really discussed how wind can be a determinate factor in deciding whether or not a short hole can work.  I used to play in a evening league at an ave public course.  But it had a good set of shortish one shotters. The one hole I loved played with a backing wind in a chute over a long pond set about 10-15' below the green.  The difficult thing was to gage how much to underclub due to the pushing wind without taking too much off and ending up short.  A wedge or 9 iron would put the ball up high where the wind would act on it for as long as it was up there (hang time).  Or you could try a punch or knock-down but with the wind at your back, these could fly and get away from you.
I think for a short hole to be effective, it has to have some means to place doubt or question in the mind of the player by making him play a shot he is uncomfortable with. 

Tim,

Indeed wind can be a big factor. The 5th at Saunton East (Fowler links course in Devon) is only about 115 yards or so, but last time I played it there was a big wind behind. Just over the back of the green is a big drop off, probably about 10ft down, thats runs the ball some way away from the green. I played a low wedge shot that with the wind behind pitched on front of the green, but ran over the back. Next time I play the hole in that wind, I'll only have one thing on my mind, and certainly be out of my comfort zone!

Cheers,

James

[Norbert P]

scariest  . . .

  Jud, those front bunkers give an abstract resemblance to a poised semi-submerged alligator ready for the pounce.  The uvula capes make them look like hunting eyes and creates an interesting "Stare down" effect.

[Jud_T]

Slag,

I was too stupid to realize just how scary it was and out of dumb luck stuck my tee shot instead of intellingently playing to the left side of the green.  My partner, a 7, also never took the smart option and ended up carding a 13!

[ed_getka]

How many people are realistically going to aim for anywhere else but the middle of the green on a 150-160 yds medium sized green with drop-offs and bunkering or other trouble all around, even if the wind isn't blowing?
 

It depends on how the green is designed. If it is designed like the one at NGLA then you are most certainly NOT aiming at the center of the green. Note the doughnut in the middle and the tilt of the green.

[Ronald Montesano]

scariest  . . .

  Jud, those front bunkers give an abstract resemblance to a poised semi-submerged alligator ready for the pounce.  The uvula capes make them look like hunting eyes and creates an interesting "Stare down" effect.

Desmond Muirhead returns from the grave...I thought they were Cleopatra's nipples...

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