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Dan Herrmann

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The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« on: December 26, 2009, 07:37:35 PM »
In another thread, Ian Andrew said that one of his top happenings in the last decade was discussing "the most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture".

Got me thinking - What ARE  the most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture?

C. Squier

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Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2009, 08:06:50 PM »
Course set up, especially the par 3's.  Nothing worse than finding yourself hitting the same 6 iron four times with plenty of other teeing options. 

Bill_McBride

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Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2009, 08:11:14 PM »
In another thread, Ian Andrew said that one of his top happenings in the last decade was discussing "the most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture".

Got me thinking - What ARE  the most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture?

One thing I really love that's not a basic of golf architecture -- I'd call those routing, use of natural features, placement of bunkering and other unnatural  features -- is the building of subtle features that can help the astute player get close to the target such as backstops, contours in greens and fairways, by playing away from the obvious line of play.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2009, 08:16:27 PM »
Does tree removal count as an under-appreciated part of architecture? Because just about every member at my course doesn't seem to appreciate what the architect of the year and our super have been doing!

Also I would put centerline hazards in the under-appreciated category because of the complaints/acceptance ratio!

A.G._Crockett

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Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2009, 08:22:25 PM »
Drainage.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2009, 08:25:51 PM »
The reason they are obscure and underappreciated, is because most of the people here have no idea what sorts of decisions we make on-site.  And most of them are visual, so there's not much point in trying to talk about them here.  You have to get out and see them in person.  And even then, you probably wouldn't notice unless one of us was there to explain it.

Carl Rogers

Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2009, 08:29:56 PM »
Well Tom,  let me guess one...

The careful manipulation, roll and tumble of terrain to lengthen or shorten the perception of distance.

Jake Straub

Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2009, 08:40:20 PM »
Perfectly squared off tee boxes, crisp definitions between fairways and step cuts and then again between the step cut and primary rough.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2009, 08:40:31 PM »
I would say some of the top happenings in the last decade was discussing "the most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture" specifically with Ian Andrew!

TD is right about some of the aesthetic/visual conversations not being worth talking about. I recall my first few design projects in school were to create examples of rythm, balance, etc. I also recall the 5:8 proportion rule and a few other things that were scientific explanations of why certain things looked nicer or even appeared more natural than others (i.e., asymetric vs symetric)  That said, you could always telll the most artistic and creative types and I can't recall anyone getting more artistic after those lessons.

I can't count the number of times I have heard some Pro Tour Player tell me to mimick the hlls/mountains in the background with the skyline of my contouring.  But, that is a simple concept that rarely works compared to overall artistic composition that actually still works functionally for golf.

But Ian is right about discussing odd points about gca.  When I am at ASGCA, playing golf with someone, or even (gasp!) reading here, its always the odd, single bits of gca thinking that strike me the most as memorable.  Its not always about aesthetics. I recall Rees Jones tell me his fw corridors were a function of rows of sprinklers, which which enlightened me to the fact he had the same problems as I did.  At Crystal Downs, TD made a few comments on Maxwell greens that jived with my perceptions, but were better stated.  

But nearly every gca I know has said things that I just never would have considered, but which made lots of sense.  I recall Jim Blaukovitch telling me he builds the downwind side of greens up to help stop shots, which I had never considered and now, I will build them up a few inches higher.  If building up the left side of a side wind green a few more inches isn't obscure and non obvious, nothing is, eh?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jake Straub

Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2009, 08:54:37 PM »
Directional bunkers off the tee, Hugh Wilson did a very nice job at Merion on #4 and #6 and Doak did a nice job on #16 at Stonewall.

Philippe Binette

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Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2009, 11:00:07 PM »
Most obscure and underappreciated: restrain

restrain is about giving up your most spectacular hole on a site if it forces you to built 4 OK holes instead of 4 good one great ones...
it's about not putting that bunker there
it's about letting go and do a simple green here once in a while
it's about understanding that you don't need a 5 feet deep swale but just a 6% side slope

less is more is in any art what is hard to get... but it's also what produces timeless architecture.

Kyle Harris

Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2009, 01:57:03 AM »
Perfectly squared off tee boxes, crisp definitions between fairways and step cuts and then again between the step cut and primary rough.

With respect to you, Jake... but I can't think of a more overrated and overvalued thing on a golf course than any of the above.

They seem more testaments to ego than they do contributions or additions to golf and the game.

Rob Rigg

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Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2009, 02:41:04 AM »
I would imagine that most golfers probably do not appreciate the work a gca does to incorporate a natural feature on a site into the routing and then let it live in its original form.

Ran's review of Friars Head mentions a couple of decisions that C&C made to use natural features even if they would be somewhat unorthodox - I assume that most of the gcas on the site have done the same thing.

Sometimes a "feature" or "features" may not be noticed or may even be considered manufactured (incorrectly), but I think it can really elevate the brilliance of a design.

Jake Straub

Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2009, 08:03:57 AM »
With respect to you, Jake... but I can't think of a more overrated and overvalued thing on a golf course than any of the above.

They seem more testaments to ego than they do contributions or additions to golf and the game.


Kyle

Maybe i should elaborate.  When you go to an older golf course by one of the greats (Flynn, Ross, Wilson, Crump, Mc Donald, etc) IMO the worst thing to see is someone who is not taking care of their artwork.  In my mind crisp clean-ups is the attention to detail that shows golfers/people that hey I give a crap about the history/person and the idea behind their architecture.  Lets be honest in some cases the reason that clubs have to return playing surfaces to their original design is due to the fact that employee's start to not care about the clean up passes on fairways, greens, and tees.  Suddenly your playing to a nondescript fairway because it's shaped like a U with bunkers yards from where they use to border the fairway and make you actually think about your tee shot.  Same thing on greens you miss a green by a couple of feet and you are hitting out of 3" high bentgrass that use to be a collar years ago.  You can go right on down the line of the golf course take a Ross course for instance, when the green department starts to edge the bunkers way to high and flash sand up on the face, you know as well as I do this is the intended look of a Ross bunker.

Ego, OCD, Pride or whatever you want to call it, I always felt like the Green Departments goal was to excentuate the architects work everyday, that is why I stated "Perfectly squared off tee boxes, crisp definitions between fairways and step cuts and then again between the step cut and primary rough." were obscured and underappreciated parts of architecture.

Hopefully that better explains my comments..

Kyle Harris

Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2009, 09:25:56 AM »
Jake,

It does, however, I still disagree.

The last thing those golf courses need is rigid definition of fairways, etc.

However, if you're asking to maintain the original width of the corridor then I'm all for it - just don't make the definition between heights so rigidly defined. Remember, most of the older courses had short grass cut in excess of 90 yards, but the HOC was higher. Today, those corridors are much narrower and often simply the arbitrary intent of someone. Who is to say that a ball in one area of the golf course should lie on short grass, and a ball 3 yards away should be in 3+ inch rough? Especially in a case where the corridor was actually much wider?

I'm an advocate of trying to "muddy" the changeover between different heights of cut, since fairway lines are for the most part arbitrary lines. This is a bit difficult considering today's equipment but I want an extended (20+ yards) transition zone between the .400 cut and the 3 inch cut.

By the way, as you may know, the rules do not define fairway, rough, collar, etc. These areas all simply "through the green."

As for Ross, there was no single method or intended look to his bunkering, he built both flashed-sand and grass-down bunkers on his courses, and often mixed the two. Check out a place like Wannamoissett or Pinehurst for an example of flashed sand Ross bunkering.

You are correct in that the maintenance should correctly tie in the hazards to the fairway and allow the golfer to come as close as they dare to the hazard, but to rigidly define these areas, to me, is going down the road of deviating from the original plan.

Ian Andrew

Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2009, 11:18:50 AM »
The hard work for an architect is at the end of a project. It’s the least exciting stage of construction, but also the most important if you want things exactly as you planned. It’s the most important time to raise your expectations, but the hardest time to do so. Most architects tend to turn the site over to the Construction Company and the Golf Course Superintendent to finish up, because the “design elements” are all in place.

The real work starts with all the tie-ins and continues through to the grassing lines. Each stage rises in importance as you go, with the grassing lines being the most important stage and most misunderstood. Areas need to be reviewed and occasionally refinished to bring out “exactly” what you want. As Tom said, sometimes it’s purely visual, but it matters. Obsessive compulsive personalities tend to thrive at this point.

I’ll give you an example to work with:

Dan Schlegel and I spent a morning at Old Macdonald walking and talking about the remaining holes and visiting with Jim, Ken and Johnathan. We returned to the 17th green as they appeared to be putting on the final float. Jim kept working one specific area on the far edge of the green and was becoming visibly upset.

He finally came over and explained what was not working for him and we could see “once he pointed it out.” He worked at this little ridge for another 15 minutes but to no avail, he couldn’t get what he had explained to us. He finally came over with a huge smile, collected the crew, and then went and re-built the area off the green creating a better tie in back into the green. It worked! He then worked the transition through the edge of the green and out to the interior roll and it created a perfect transition that looked completely natural. He had finally hidden what they built.


I’m very obsessive about what I'm trying to learn. I tend to ask very specific questions and the guys either had the answer themselves or suggested someone else who would have the answer. I appreciated the fact that they were willing to share.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 11:24:06 AM by Ian Andrew »

Tom_Doak

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Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2009, 12:49:15 PM »
Ian:

Indeed, I was not there for the finish work you just described.  But the three guys who were working on the problem all work for me and not for a contractor, which is one of the keys to our program.

I know that work is really important, and some days I'm sad that it's no longer my place.


Jake S:

What makes you think Flynn, Ross, or Macdonald were going for perfect definition of fairways and squared-off tees.

I can tell you for a fact, you won't find a square tee on any of their plans.

Norbert P

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Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2009, 03:18:39 PM »
Most obscure and underappreciated: restrain
 . . .
less is more is in any art what is hard to get... but it's also what produces timeless architecture.

Phillipe,  perhaps this progression of bulls artwork by Picasso is a fitting analogy.
 

To paraphrase a remark by Pablo, "I do not destroy the original image, I reorganize it."

"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Mike_Trenham

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Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2009, 06:37:39 PM »
My guess would be the placement of forward tees and ability to still provide the correct angle of attack while still having it all look right and work with cart paths being kept out of sight and maintaining playability.  Some of the forward tees at my club are completely in the wrong spots yet the cost to move them remove trees and rebuild the cart paths would be astronomical in light of the resources we have and all the other projects we could do.

Not surprisingly the complaints we get from the members that use these tees is not about placement of the tees but that they are not level (which should be improved). 
Proud member of a Doak 3.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2009, 06:38:14 PM »
Two underappreciated aspects of gca are course circulation and working to a budget......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mac Plumart

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Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2009, 06:46:55 PM »
One of the things that has got to be very under appreciated when analyzing a golf course solely on its architectural merits is how the architect has to please the client.

We can say whatever we want about a course not having x, y, or z...or that it is not walkable...or whatever...but if the architect is hired to build a course in the mountains, in a neighborhood, etc...then that is what he/she must do.

These, and other, restrictions/stipulations put on an architect must put a strain on the architect's desires/dreams/wishes...but if you want to eat, provide for your employees, etc...you better do it and make the client happy.

Right?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jake Straub

Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2009, 07:59:36 AM »
Kyle

you make some really good points and views have definitely

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

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Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2009, 08:21:11 AM »
I think tie-ins and subtle contour changes are some of the little obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture that many don't notice but it makes the course better. I can think of a number of subtletys, especially on older courses, that I've noticed over the years where the walk off from a green to a tee is very 'walkable' and when you look closely you can see a 'path' designed into the surroundings. Another is how well a course blends into the undisturbed surrounds and is made look seemless, like it was always there.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 08:35:55 AM by Alan FitzGerald »
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Jake Straub

Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2009, 08:29:16 AM »
Sorry bout the last post wrong key....

Kyle

you make some really good points and my views have definitely been skewed over the years because as you and the many supers on this site know it's all about conditions and distinct definitions between fairways, step cuts and primary rough.  I will take your point to heart.  Now one point I was trying to convey was that if you land in an area that use to be part of a green and has now been let go over the years and is rough height bentgrass, that in my mind is a disservice to the architect (Play it where it lies by the way).  I appreciate where you are coming from on the Ross comments that I made, my point in making all of these comments is that if the green department is not looking at old aerials of the course and studying the architect and his architecture they can very easily lose some of his little nuances that make the course and the architect so special.

Tom

Your point is well taken and I should have stated in my previous post the comment that I made above regarding the use of old aerials, blueprints and whatever else the club has to further the education and protect the architecture that makes there course so special to them.  

Now I have brought up many architects who will have a tough time talking about this subject so Tom I ask you this, how do you feel when a club changes the fairway/rough grass contour lines over time on one of your courses?  Or when a super increases the size of a collar so that the greens mower want scalp a knob or a fall off area anymore?  Do you feel as though your architecture is compromised.  

Tom_Doak

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Re: The most obscure and underappreciated parts of architecture
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2009, 08:40:45 AM »

Tom

Now I have brought up many architects who will have a tough time talking about this subject so Tom I ask you this, how do you feel when a club changes the fairway/rough grass contour lines over time on one of your courses?  Or when a super increases the size of a collar so that the greens mower want scalp a knob or a fall off area anymore?  Do you feel as though your architecture is compromised.  

Jake:

A good question.  Sometimes I do feel that the architecture is compromised, sometimes not.  Some mowing lines are more critical than others, for playability or for visual reasons.

It's less true today than a few years ago, but over the years I've noticed a distinct tendency for superintendents to change the mowing lines on the approaches to greens and make a very formal-looking "neck" of narrow fairway with rough on both sides going into the green.  If there is a contour in the way, they tend to mow around it and make it part of the rough -- which is just exactly the opposite of what I'd want them to do.  The contour won't have nearly as much effect on play if it's in rough height as it would mowed tight.  If this was done for ease of maintenance, that would be one thing, but usually it's a matter of "presentation" and they are choosing to present the course differently than I intended.

I don't have a problem with changing things like the width of the collar for maintenance reasons, UNLESS it restricts the use of a key hole location on the green.  I have certainly seen that's happened on many of the older courses where we consult, so I try to be diligent about it at my own courses.  But, of course, I can't get back to all of those courses on a regular basis, so the best of all worlds is when the superintendent has been there from the beginning and understands what we were trying to do.

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