Apache Stronghold

[Dan Moore]

Does anybody know the current status of Apache Stronghold?  Is it open?  Current conditions? 

Thanks for your help.   

[Bruce Leland]

Nothing definitive Dan but last I checked it was open.   Conditions are another realm altogether and I can't comment as I haven't been there since 2006.  We were scheduled to be there a week after they closed and were forced to make other plans.  Looking at another trip in early March 2010 if they are open.  Personally, I have never let the conditions of the fairways dampen the experience.  I understand, however, that there was a Winter or two when the greens were damaged severely. 

My 6 annual trips there were met with tough conditions in the fairways but the greens and tees were very playable.  Altogether a very good golf experience.  I hope they remain open and we can create new memories there. 

Perhaps Tom Doak will comment on the rumor but I have heard repeatedly that the parties that were responsible for bringing golf there stated something to the effect "We have 20,000 acres to route the course so don't screw it up."  Sounds like a great story but not sure of the validity.....

All in all, I love the place.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Bruce - many posts throughout the years here about AS.  In good conditioning it is one of the Ren GD group's very best efforts.  In bad conditioning it is just a caring super's loving efforts short of Ren GD group's very best efforts.  The rhythm of the routing is nearly unequaled in all of golf.  JC

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The best time for good conditioning is in the summer months. The warmer weather means the grass can grow out there in Globe. Winter months are not ideal for growing grass out there.

[Bruce Leland]

From what I understand about the elevation and its impact on the grassing choices.......this is a different type of transition site.  Not exactly a prime environment for cool season grasses due to the temperatures in the Summer months and not a good candidate for warm season grasses due to the climate in the Winter months.  Admittedly, I am not a turf science expert but have played the course numerous times with a representative from a major seed supplier and have absorbed his opinions on the subject.

Still love the routing and the way the course fits the land.  Can't wait to break some tees there again.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Can't wait to break some tees there again.

LOL !!

[Tom_Doak]

Dan:

This year they closed the course in January and February and reopened in March; I don't know if they intend to follow the same policy every year or not, but you should call and ask before you go.  [In fact, I'll call them if I remember to do it later today; I know I won't get an answer at 5 a.m. local time!]

The fairways have been changed over to bermuda grass so they are dormant in the winter months, but they were okay when I saw them in 2008.  The greens and surrounds were in pretty rough shape, which is a reversal of fortune ... up until a couple of years ago, the greens had generally been good even when the rest of the course was terrible, which is why most people could put up with it.

[Ronald Montesano]

Does this news mean that Ran and Ben should remove the NLE designation and replace it with an STE (Some Times Exists) appellation on the Courses By Country page?

[Tom Yost]

We tried to make a reservation in October and were told that back nine was closed, but I called out there this morning and it appears  that while the course is only open Wednesday-Sunday, ALL 18 holes are open for play.

My most recent visit was in January of 2009.  Dormant bermuda fairways were playable, but the greens have been suffering.  It did appear that some work was being done, about half of the #10 green had been re-turfed. Some of the tee boxes were being redone as well, however with whatever random choice of turf.  Bunkers may or may not have sand.  Perhaps Smolens or Troeger can chime in on their thoughts.

Despite the "rustic" conditioning, the course was playable and I enjoyed myself.  It has been a year however and the fact they were closed down for some period of time doesn't lead me to believe things have improved.

[Tim Nugent]

RON, it's not surprising that they would close this course in winter months.  For those unfamilar with AZ, most of the state does experience winter.  AS is about 90 miles from PHX and much higher in elevation.  It's hot and dry in the summer and can get cold in the winter.  About like St.Louis without the percipitation.  A real difficult place to grow quality turf grass.  

The business problems with this site are a) it has no local population and must rely on people wishing to spend 3 hrs in a car. b) winter - when all the out-of-town visitors are around - has a very short window to get 18 in.  Last tee time is about 1pm.  Hence limited # of tee times. c) PHX has a multitude of good alternatives (much closer).  d) in the longer summer months, it's the only course around so you can't double-up for 36 and all those good alternatives in PHX are begging for play.

TOM D, glad to hear they bit the bullet and went to Bermuda.  Do you know what variety?  Aren't the greens Bent?  Do you know if any consideration was ever given to Zoysia fairways since it requires less water and fertilizer than Bermuda?

TOM Y. sounds like a long way to go for 9,  hope you went round twice

[Bill_McBride]

I'd love to get up there again.  I thought the tee shot on #10 was as entertaining split  fairway option I had seen in a long time.  Lots of fun tee shots on that course.

[Matt_Ward]

There's little doubt that AS is indeed a design worthy of one's time and visit but so much of that experience will be dictated by the turf conditions one encounters. Some on this board would be content to play AS even if the place were reduced to dirt conditions. I frankly enjoyed the place soon after it opened because all the resultint issues were not present then. In two subsequent visits to the place the turf conditions rendered so many of the design features to either a much lesser extent ot none at all.

No doubt some people could care less about conditioning and simply want to play what's there. AS could be so much more but whether that happens or not will be dependent one's personal preference and wherewithal to adjust accordingy.

Tim, spelled out the issues quite correctly -- unless there is some sort of meaningful lodging alternative the issues he spelled out will continue. The Best Western that is there is only a few steps beyon what Joseph and Mary found in Bethlehem.

With the proper management team and vision AS could be that much better.

[Andy Troeger]

Tom Y.

My recollection of that round in January would be similar to your post--the course was certainly playable but had some rough spots.

Tim N.
I think you hit the nail on the head in terms of the business situation especially given the weather situation. Apache Stronghold probably gets more warmth than Black Mesa here in New Mexico, but I would guess the weather might resemble parts of New Mexico which tends to have more elevation. I'm glad to have seen it, but most of the times when I head that way it is for warmer weather and multiple courses. For me it works best on the way to/from home, but from my recollection, I had to leave ABQ at 5 am, play around Noon, and get to Phoenix about 6:30 pm to make that work. A course has to be really good to merit doing that again.

[David Kelly]

A course has to be really good to merit doing that again.

To me it is one of Tom's top 5 courses and if it was in good condition I would make it a point to travel from SoCal to play it at least once a year.

[Dan Moore]

Thanks for the replies.  I'm not a stickler for perfect conditions so I may try to make it there next weekend provided the muscle spasm that has hit my back calms down.   If nothing else I will be able to provide a conditions update for those who will be visiting the valley this year. 

[Jud_T]

Dan,

I'll be looking for your report.  Just got back from Pheonix and didn't make it out there, but kind of wish i'd made the effort....

[Matt_Ward]

Guys:

Let me say this again for those who didn't get it the first time -- I wasn't suggesting "perfect" condition are what is needed to enjoy AS. But if one is playing off more dirt than turf there is an issue for just about most people. The design junkies who don't care a twit about such things will love it. More power to them.

[Dan Moore]

My son and I made it to Apache Stronghold on the final day of the decade and will have a full report with a few photos when I get back to frigid Chicago Monday night.  Here is a cliff notes version on conditions.  All 18 holes were open.  The dormant fairways were quite playable and looked to have plenty of grass to them for when they come alive in March-April.  The tees were a quite rough in spots with some of them not being used at all.  The greens and surrounds were being heavily watered when we arrived at 10:15 am which lead to soft and slow conditions on and around the greens.  The surrounds had been recently fetilized with what looked like an abundance of natural fertilzer (animal pellets).  With one or two exceptions, most notably 17, the greens were fully grassed and looked like they had been recently top dressed with sand.  The greens and surrounds also look like they will be in reasonably good shape when the growing season kicks in in March.  The bunkers were another story.  Many are filling in with grass and looked like they hadn't been maintained in months if not longer.  Nothing however that couldn't be remedied with a a good grounds crew in a few weeks.  Gotta run for now.  More complete thoughts on the overall experience when I get home.  Talking Stick North tomorrow when its expected to be sunny and 72 degrees. 

[Jud_T]

Dan,

Love to hear what you think of TSN...Played it last week and was very pleasantly surprised...

[Dan Moore]

Here is a more detailed look at conditions at Apache Stronghold.  I would not recommend a visit at this time.  Course is clearly not in good condition due to winter conditions and less than ideal maintenance.

That said the dormant fairways actually played quite well.  I had played dormant fairways at Vista Verde the day prior and both played quite well in my opinion.  The real problem at AS right now, at least the day I played, is that they were watering the greens and surrounds rather extensively and as a result they were quite soft and very slow.  In particular the soft surrounds took away the ability to approach the greens along the ground.  One perfectly hit hybrid on a long par 4 to a front pin landed about 10 yards short and backed up.  Under normal conditions it would have bounded up near the pin.  Hopefully the heavy watering is intended to improve conditions in the long run and the course will round into shape when the growing season kicks in  March and April.

Frankly, I had expected much worse conditions than I encountered.  There are still some bare spots here and there, but all in all the course appeared to have a very good grass base.  The dormant fairways had plenty of stiff dormant grass to provide a good clean lie and played as well as the dormant fairways at Vista Verde the day before.  Likewise the surrounds looked to have a pretty good grass base.  Only the 12th hole had an extensive bare spot just beyond the large bunker which is short right of the green.   A few greens had some bare spots, but nothing terrible.  They seemed to have been top dressed to encourage growth and as noted were being fertilized and watered.  Only the 17th green showed extensive damage, particularly on the raised spine that runs down the center of the green.  Bunkers were another story.  A few had started to grow grass and all of them hadn't been raked in what looked like months.  I don't think they are in any immediate risk of being lost, but would require a few weeks of work to get them back.  

Notwithstanding the less than ideal conditions, it was still a very enjoyable round with my son.  It was around 48 degrees (probably 10 degrees cooler than Phoenix that day) when we teed off around 10:45.  It had taken us about an 1:40 to get there from Mesa.  The drive is scenic and fairly easy.  There were less than a dozen cars in the lot and the ranger said there were 2-3 foursomes on the course.  The clubhouse is quite modest and all staff appeared to be residents of the Apache reservation.  All were quite nice especially the ranger who didn't downplay the conditions and seemed fully aware of the maintenance shortcomings.   He clearly appreciated the fact they have a special course and noted it was a very highly regarded Tom Doak design.  Green fee was just $35, quite a bit less than I would pay at Vista Verde and Talking Stick North.  

Based on what I saw I'm pretty optimistic the course will be in pretty good shape once the growing season kicks in.  I certainly hope so since I think it has the best routing of any course I have played in Arizona, and in good shape it would be a real treat to play.  
Here are some photos of the course from 12/31/09.

1st Hole Bunker filling in with grass


4th From tee

4th Green

5th tee

5th Green

6th Tee

6th Green (huge fall off to the left)

9th Green Bunker (Got up and down from there)

13th tee (Love the volcano bunker)

16th tee (on in 2 for a 3 putt par)  

17th Green (damage on the high areas) Very cool amphitheater setting.

18th tee



After the round we stopped in Globe for lunch at Libby's El Rey which was recommended by Tom Yost.  Great authentic Mexican and some of the freshest tasting salsa ever.  





The Green Chile Enchilada  $3.25


For the ride home we thought it would be a good idea to take the scenic Apache Trail.  The ride from Globe to Lake Roosevelt was a nice uneventful ride..  Nice view of some cliff dwellings at the Tonto Monument.  Then we hit the trail.  My brother had tried to tell me it was a slow trip along some dirt roads.  Little did I know he meant 45 miles of narrow dirt roads up the side of the mountain where you could only go 5-10 miles an hour in most spots.  Some great views in the late afternoon sun.  It took us 3.5 hours to get back tp Phoenix. 

Here are some scenic shots from the ride home.  

Cliff Dwellings

Lake Roosevelt




Along the Trail

[Jud_T]

Dan,

Great shots and color on the situation...How was TSN?

[Tom Yost]

Dan,

Thanks for the write up and the photos.  I sure hope things change out there, starting with a real superintendent.  I think it's a chicken/egg situation where they can't attract golfers without better conditions but don't have the cash flow to improve conditions without more golfers.

I'm glad you enjoyed my lunch suggestion, but to head down the Apache Trail AFTER a dinner at the El Rey...  you are a brave man!

[Dan Moore]

Jud,

I have played TSN before and it is one of my Valley favorites.  The overall subtlety of the design and green shaping is a marvel.  The deep bunkers beautifully enhance the strategic design. 

I love the 2nd hole which in my mind sets up the entire round.  With out of bounds hard along the entire left side of the hole, you are presented with 80 yards of fairway off the tee.  It stays pretty wide all the way to the green which is set just 10 yards from the OB.  With only two bunkers on the hole, both to the right of the green, they affect the decision of whether to go for the green and challenge the OB or lay-up well right and face a difficult pitch over the bunkers.  I've never seen another hole like it anywhere.  Strategic minamalism at its very best.

http://www.talkingstickgolfclub.com/courses.php?CourseID=67bd9cebb71db020215643295dc73e0b&HoleNumber=2

As a facility its great.  Ten minutes from the heart of Scottsdale.  Nice clubhouse, good restraurant and an excellent driving range steps away from the 1st tee.  Conditions were excellent.  Overseeded and green  (except the desert areas) with a single cut for the fairways.  Plenty of width.  Greens were firm and barely taking a ball mark.  Decent rate available on www.golfnow.com.   

[Jud_T]

Dan,

Played it for the first time a few weeks ago on my first trip to the area and was blown away.  Agree on #2. An infinite number of ways to make 5,  or 7! This is the finest example of the minimalist ethos that I've seen thus far...The fact that my 10 year old, who played for $25 by the way, and the big hitting investment banker we were paired with, both could have fun and challenge was further testament to the design...

[Mark Smolens]

"One perfectly hit hybrid on a long par 4 to a front pin landed about 10 yards short and backed up."    Dan, I'll give you well-struck, but come on my friend.  And I'm fairly certain that the fresh-tasting salsa from El Rey couldn't touch the homemade chipotle sauce you brought to the tailgate (oops, sorry to bring up a bad memory about yet another Badger defeat  )

I enjoyed my visit to AS with Messrs. Yost and Troeger, and concur on their opinions about the conditions we faced.

I also love TSN.  Great place to play 36.  I can bring my Mom out for the round on the South Course (she doesn't like the bunkers on the North, too tough for a 76 year old to climb out of), and then play the North without her.  Love the option par-4 on the back (is it # 12?), with the fairway being bisected by a wash, and a narrow strip of fairway bordered by the ob fence on the left.  Depending on the pin location, sometimes it really does make sense to try to hit something straight down the left, or else you have no chance to get at the hole. . .