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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Best Ways to Use Wind in GCA?
« on: December 29, 2009, 01:46:16 PM »
On another thread, I was asked about how I use the wind in design.  Below is my response and a statement from Mike Nuzzo regarding that.


I try to cant (angle) both fw and greens and superelevate (high side on the upwind side) them with the wind where ever possible. Now, that usually comes out to about 2/3 the time, which I figure is fine.  Even with strong prevailing winds, the wind does blow other directions some of the time.


That sounds like you are helping the better player and hurting the average player
I think you have too many formulas
Cheers

So, my question to Mike, and others, is how do you try to utilize the wind in your design work?  Or, if "just" a golfer ;) how do you like to see the wind play into your shotmaking?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Ways to Use Wind in GCA?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2009, 02:01:01 PM »
From behind...


but it sounds like a round with Pat Mucci would have plenty of wind as well...

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Ways to Use Wind in GCA?
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2009, 03:21:13 PM »
Jeff, It would appear the answers to your Q are numerable. Perhaps it would be easier to denote the negative. What is the wrong way to route holes as far as the wind is concerned? But then you run into the Old Course and all hell breaks loose.

I've observed on more than one occasion where playing a downwind hole was harder (yielded higher scores) than into the wind. Maybe it's expectations not being realized, or, the fortitude of over coming the challenge of playing into the wind. Either way, it strikes me as being similar to my axiom of... "Long and down the middle can be highly over-rated". It also illustrates how Par for a hole can and should change in one's mind depending on the wind. i.e. The 16th and 17th holes at Ballyneal. Similar lengths, different pars, opposite directions.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Ways to Use Wind in GCA?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2009, 03:43:51 PM »
Help me better understand your definition:

Is this what you said?
Elevated left side of a green and a left to right wind.
Both gravity and the wind direct the ball to the right.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Ways to Use Wind in GCA?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2009, 03:47:22 PM »
Could an architect end up overthinking this?Unless the predominate wind is really predominate,couldn't you design yourself into a situation where downwind/upwind holes get "unbalanced" to an extent that you don't want?

Re-reading the question,I realize that unbalanced could also be a good thing.

Dick Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Ways to Use Wind in GCA?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2009, 04:51:14 PM »
I have a problem believing that any architect, starting with old Tom, has knowingly designed green slope and contours to accomodate prevailing winds.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Ways to Use Wind in GCA?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2009, 04:56:37 PM »
JME,

Yeah, you can overthink it.  Some of the pros I have worked with are really dogmatic on the idea of aligning all the road signs - wind, lie slope, target areas slope, angle of target suggest the same shot.  I understand the concept - if a fun course makes you hit all the shots, then setting up a variety of shots (with a strong combo of signals for any one shot) also makes sense to me.

But, I hate greens and fw that don't fit the topo so that is why I end up with some greens that don't fit the strong criteria some believe in more strongly.  On a left angled site, I won't build a green angling to the right, etc.  If faced with counter signals, or variable winds, my tendency is to build the green to fit the land, but make it wider and perhaps deeper and allow golfers to have at it any way they choose.

I also agree with Kelly that on generally windy sites, an open front is the most flexible form of design.  But, the targets deserve some consideration.  I have seen greens that are nearly unhittable, downwind, shallow and wide, and a water hazard in front where you have to carry it to the green, but the tail wind reduces spin and most shots end up over the green.

Is it formula to examine likely play conditons and then size and shape a green so that the typical approach shots are generally "doable" by most golfers?

Dick,

While I doubt Old Tom designed internal contours specifically for wind, I think modern gca's do.  It probably comes with the more aerial game and equipment that makes it more of a need than in the old days.  But, even GeorgeThomas wrote about contouring for specific shots - suggesting narrower greens on downwind holes where the tail wind would tend to straighten out the shot, and flatter greens for long iron approaches that would roll on, vs. steeper up slopes where a wedge with spin and check was required.  So, contouring greens dates back at least that far, to the age when courses transitioned from being found to being designed.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Best Ways to Use Wind in GCA?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2009, 05:04:12 PM »
Dick K:

You lose!

I've certainly thought about the wind when designing greens in windy spots ... both in toning down the contours, and in making sure I didn't have the steepest greens lined up with the wind.  That is from years of experience playing at Crystal Downs, and knowing there are a couple of holes where if you wind up behind the hole with the wind blowing hard, there is no way to keep your next shot or putt on the green.

I am pretty sure that Coore and Crenshaw also think about that a lot.  Ben thinks about the wind more than anyone I know ... I guess that is a combination of growing up in Texas, and Jeff's general observations about how Tour pros think.

Jeff B:

I thought about the wind a lot when we were designing The Rawls Course, since we had nothing else to start with on that site.  I was particularly trying to design the north-facing holes (downwind in summer) to accommodate or even DEMAND a running approach shot when they play downwind.  I would say we only had mixed success with that, but I've learned some more things to apply next time.

I do agree with JMEvensky that you can overthink that sort of thing.  Some old courses have ALL the short par-4's playing into the prevailing wind and ALL the longer 4's playing downwind, so that most of the time the shot values are more equal, and occasionally it's a freak show of driveable par-4's followed by par-4's that are unreachable in two.  Having seen this on several occasions, I prefer to mix things up a bit, so that hopefully when the wind is blowing there is always a good mix of holes.

Dick Kirkpatrick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Ways to Use Wind in GCA?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2009, 05:12:26 PM »
Jeff:
I agree with flatter greens with less slope for long approach shots, and more pitch on the greens for short approach shots.
What has that got to do with the wind?

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Ways to Use Wind in GCA?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2009, 06:00:07 PM »
I am not sure I have thought much about wind for green design, the wind in the UK can blow from 360, and maybe in the same day. The only time I really think about it as a factor is with long 4s and 5s where the wind can +/- 100 yards on the hole, but I am not sure I actually design anything differenty.. the bunkers are in play.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

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