Is there a common thread when underwhelmed by greatness?

[Anthony Gray]

Pretty flat greens at Pebble Beach...

  I think they are too small to allow much movement created by undulations.

  Anthony

Could be...but they still seemed to fail to generate much interest from me...admittedly only two plays and on consecutive days so not much time to grow.

  I agree they could have more interest.

  ARG

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
Your impression of WFW is valid, for you, and I don't doubt that there are others who feel the same way. What is also valid is that your impression, and that of some others, is not the same impression held by a much greater majority of people, ergo, WFW always hovers in the top range of great U.S. golf courses.

Is there a 'great' golf course anywhere that doesn't have some deficiency, as noted by someone at sometime or other? The answer to that is 'no'.....and the thing to remember is that these highly regarded and slightly flawed courses have other attributes that score A+'s and that more than makes up for any perceived blemish.

Another thing that always stands out, and I mentioned earlier, is the eclectic nature of what makes it into the stratosphere of the very best. That, in and of itself, says to me that subjectivity is only a part of the equation, and objectivity is more important than many people care to believe.

In other words, quality is quality and mediocrity is mediocrity, there is no long term way to disguise either, so a WFW may not be your cup of tee but it surely hasn't proven itself to be mediocre over time, has it.

[Roger Wolfe]

Sea Island Seaside is number one on my list and I realize it is more for the following reasons than GCA:

I am always showered before each round (AM and PM) after spending each meal in the amazing locker room.
The course site is breathtaking and very easy to walk.
I always seem to play well since my low ball flight works well in the wind and elements and tightly cut, bunker free approaches.
It is public so I can relax and enjoy myself instead of worrying about stepping on any toes and greeting any and everyone who walks by.
The weather has always been great expect for once when we played in a 40 mph tropical storm... which was great, too.

I have played historically high ranked clubs like RTJ in Virginia, Charlotte CC, Kinloch, Quail Hollow Club, and was "underwhelmed" due to the architects' style relative to my game plus the time of year / level of maintenance at each facility.  I realize these are wonderful places to experience one time, but not everyday.  

I treat rankings like I do putters.  They are very personal and it is impossible for an organization or person to dictate which course is better than another.  A $250 Rossi fit and ordered from the manufacturer might work as well as a $20 bullseye out of the used club bin at the local muni... it depends on the "USER."  I think golf course rankings follow suit.

[Anthony Gray]

  NGLA is confusing. I don't know how many times you hit your ball then ask your caddy "Is that OK?"

  Anthony

[Patrick_Mucci]

My college fraternity brothers at UC Santa Barbara and I knew it then!

Bill,

Remind me to tell you about my brief stint working in a bikini store in Santa Barbara.

It was a tough job to leave, or get fired from.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

   I don't know diddly about cars, but that one seems to have quality from tee to green, something lacking in the early tee shots at WFW. Billy Casper thought the architecture was so lacking he didn't even try to go for the green on a par three

YIKES

[mike_malone]

 Jim,

    It is my belief that some courses got rated highly some 75 +years ago because of tournament play and the stature of their membership. As time went by they held onto this status because of many nonarchitectural reasons. If someone can convince me that the tee shot challenge and variety is not an important part of what makes great architecture then I could see WFW as great. Until then I think its ranking comes from other factors beyond architecture.

    I do think evaluating the tee shot challenge and variety is an objective one, BTW. So, I think WFW's status is highly subjective. Just because many see it as great doesn't make it so.

[mike_malone]

 Pat,

    Would you say that good architecture on a par three , at a minimum, requires players to go for the green? If an accomplished player in a major championship sees no risk/reward benefit to going for a par three green I see that as bad architecture.

    I'm upset that you only deigned to give me a one word answer.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,

Casper's was a plan of attack, he didn't want to challenge the fronting bunkers with a fairway wood on what was a 220 yard par 3, one that had an ultra firm surface like all the other greens at that event. He said he got the idea as a teenager by watching Hogan study every angle of approach during a practice round for an event in San Diego.

He was the only player in the field to do so, and he won.

[JMEvensky]

    I'm upset that you only deigned to give me a one word answer.

Yeah,but at least it was green.That's gotta count for something.

[Bill_McBride]

My college fraternity brothers at UC Santa Barbara and I knew it then!

Bill,

Remind me to tell you about my brief stint working in a bikini store in Santa Barbara.

It was a tough job to leave, or get fired from.

Were you a model?   

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
I'm sorry, but you and anyone else who thinks as you do is wrong-headed. You put too much emphasisi on your own personal views and while that's alright for you, it doesn't comport with the majority view of WFW.

Think about what you just said: "because many see it as great doesn't make it so". Well, what the heck will make it so? Should we now consider WFW something less than great because of your view, or should we continue to believe the thousands upon thousands of opinions to the contrary?

I'm sorry mike, I gotta go with them, even though McBride says you are a nice guy.  

[mike_malone]

 And it was an indictment of the architecture.

       Incidentally, I believe Bobby Locke (someone correct me if I have the wrong person) avoided Calamity's  green at Portrush during its Open Championship. He, however, did not win but I think made par in all of the rounds. And Calamity is a revered hole. If he had won I guess I would have knock that great hole!

[mike_malone]

 Jim,

     I think there is a parallel between those who believe in objectivity and the weight of the majority view. When practically everyone agrees it must be true!

     Besides, I can be nice and stupid at the same time.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
Once again, just because 'we' say it's so doesn't mean it is. You are welcome to your opinion but the fact that no one felt forced to or chose to employ Casper's strategy is overwhelming evidence that there was, and is, nothing wrong with that architecture.

I'll bet there were a few birdies, along with some pars, some bogies and doubles, and maybe even an 'other' or two from the rest of the field who went for the green from the tee.


edited: the majority view in this case is not one that's held by idiots. 

[JESII]

Mike,

Does it improve the architecture that I knew Casper laid up each round and I still tried to hit the green, missed in right bunker, skulled it 75 yards down the fourth hole and made 6 on en route to a 71 my first (of two) times out there?

[mike_malone]

I rest my case,Jim

[JESII]

Why?

[mike_malone]

 Well, I was using my new blackberry at lunch to post a reply and I did not want to use many words.   Honestly, I don't know what your experience says about the architecture of the hole. But, I can't think of how it speaks positively to it.

[Bill_McBride]

Well, I was using my new blackberry at lunch to post a reply and I did not want to use many words.   Honestly, I don't know what your experience says about the architecture of the hole. But, I can't think of how it speaks positively to it.

I've heard about Casper's win at WF for many years - it's been 50 years! - and always thought that to be more a matter of super course management based on self-knowledge than anything else to do with architecture.  The hole is what it is, was what it was.  Casper made the conscious decision that, based solely on his own game, that he could do better laying up and chipping.  4 for 4 pars is a testament more to his course management that anything to do with the architecture.

[Sean_A]

Well, I was using my new blackberry at lunch to post a reply and I did not want to use many words.   Honestly, I don't know what your experience says about the architecture of the hole. But, I can't think of how it speaks positively to it.

I've heard about Casper's win at WF for many years - it's been 50 years! - and always thought that to be more a matter of super course management based on self-knowledge than anything else to do with architecture.  The hole is what is is, was what it was.  Casper made the conscious decision that, based solely on his own game, that he could do better laying up and chipping.  4 for 4 pars is a testament more to his course management that anything to do with the architecture.

Cha-ching!

Ciao

[mike_malone]

 Bill,

   I can't think of a better way to judge great architecture than when it gets an accomplished player to play away from the green ( I meant "green" but wrote"hole". Now I have modified it.) . What is architecture for if it doesn't effectively tempt players into hitting a shot with a small chance of success?

   I would say Casper's course management was good and the architecture of the hole was bad.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

   I can't think of a better way to judge great architecture than when it gets an accomplished player to play away from the hole. What is architecture for if it doesn't effectively tempt players into hitting a shot with a small chance of success?

   I would say Casper's course management was good and the architecture of the hole was bad.

The architecture did its job - not many players were able to resist the temptation of being rewarded for a perfect shot and paid the price.  Cypress Point would be more of an example of bad architecture for its high risk/reward ratio.  The hole at WFW doesn't have a catastrophe waiting for you, just a bogey if you miss the green where you don't want to.

[mike_malone]

 Sorry, Bill but the guy who won went against the achitecture in a radical way . That stands out to me as one of only times that a tactic like that worked. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying WFW is a dog track. I'm just saying to be in that rarified air of the very best you can't have such glaring weaknesses.

[Bill_McBride]

Sorry, Bill but the guy who won went against the achitecture in a radical way . That stands out to me as one of only times that a tactic like that worked. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying WFW is a dog track. I'm just saying to be in that rarified air of the very best you can't have such glaring weaknesses.

So one out of 144 makes it bad architecture?  The other guys apparently all played the hole like AWT designed it - and they lost!  To me that's not the architecture, it's the player.