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Scott Macpherson

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Best courses have received architects personal attention
« on: December 21, 2009, 03:59:28 PM »
HI,

Ran brings it up in his new post about Flynn, and I have often thought it true, that the best courses are so because they have received the personal attention of the lead architect/creative leader for, if not the entire construction period, the majority of it.

This seems to be true with Colt at Swinley Forest where he lived by the course, of MacKenzie at Pasatiempo, Ross at Pinehurst etc.

Is this the real key to success?

scott

John Moore II

Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2009, 04:06:34 PM »
That might be the case, but what about Cypress Point? Or in more modern times, Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes. And in the case of Pac Dunes, we can get the first hand information as to how much time was spend on site. Certainly we have heard that Mike Strantz basically lived on his designs, doing only one at a time, but is that the norm?

Tom Doak: How much time did you spend at Bandon working on Pac Dunes?

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 04:16:12 PM »
Scott,

Undoubtedly "the real key to success" is for the "lead architect/creative leader" to spend A LOT of time on-site throughout the construction process. But, of equal importance, is putting an experienced, talented construction foreman in-charge of the job day to day in light of the architect's inevitable absence, from time to time.

I think Donald Ross' entire body of work speaks to this point. There are many examples - including comparison between Essex and Roseland, in my hometown, Windsor, Ontario (Canada) - where quality of work is attributable to someone with talent and previous experience in golf course construction having been in-charge of implementing Ross' plan, or not.

I'm certain the same applies to nearly every golf course construction project throughout history, regarding quality of work: Hands-on golf architect + talented, experienced construction foreman = a course that's likely superior to most.
jeffmingay.com

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2009, 04:19:34 PM »
That might be the case, but what about Cypress Point? Or in more modern times, Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes. And in the case of Pac Dunes, we can get the first hand information as to how much time was spend on site. Certainly we have heard that Mike Strantz basically lived on his designs, doing only one at a time, but is that the norm?

Tom Doak: How much time did you spend at Bandon working on Pac Dunes?

We were posting at the same time, John.

To expand on my earlier post, regardless how much time Mackenzie, Doak, Coore and Crenshaw spent on-site during construction of the courses you mention: Cypress Point = Robert Hunter; Sand Hills = Dave Axland and Dan Proctor; Pacific Dunes = Jim Urbina; Stantz courses = Forrest Fezler... along some talented construction guys/shapers, of course. 
jeffmingay.com

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2009, 04:25:46 PM »
As for Cypress Point, as Jeff alluded to, Robert Hunter being a full partner of Mackenzie was on site pretty much every day during construction, and I think Mac spent some reasonable chunks of time on site, but nowhere near as much as Hunter.

When Pasatiempo was being built, I am very doubtful you could describe Mackenzie as being on site 'full time' during its construction - he was in a lot of other places during that period.

With Royal Melbourne West, you have his Australian partner Alex Russell on site with Mick Morcom pretty much every day. As Tom D has repeatedly said, Mackenzie had that ability to identify and nurture talent that was of a similar mindset to his own.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2009, 05:01:42 PM »
My best courses are the ones I devoted the most attention to, regardless of how talented an associate I had working on any phase of it, from routing through field work.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2009, 05:15:04 PM »
Jeff:

I don't think we could say the same about Dr. MacKenzie, at least.  He spent the most time at Alwoodley and at Pasatiempo, I believe, and those are surely not universally accepted as his two best.

As for me, I spent the most time of all at High Pointe, and it's now closed.  :(  I do think it was among my most creative and original designs, but I would not put it at #1, and certainly nobody else would.

By contrast, I did not spend all that much time on the ground at St. Andrews Beach, but I really didn't need to, because so much of it was laying there that we managed to build it all in a very short time span.  Most of the greens were built with me standing right there, even though I was only on site something like 20-25 days during construction [don't remember the exact #].

John K. Moore: 

I have my day planner for the year 2000 right here in my office; I have down 67 days for Pacific Dunes during construction, although a few of those were mostly travel days.  And that doesn't include 12-15 days in three trips the year before, working on the routing.

I have not spent that many days on site on any of the courses I've built since then; partly because we are more active in more locales, and partly because I am remarried and would like to keep it that way.  Yet, we have managed to build a bunch of very good courses since 2000, some of which are occasionally rated higher than Pacific Dunes by my friends.

I still think the best courses you do are a function of the best sites and best clients you've had.  Usually, that means you are going to be predisposed to spend more time hanging around them, too ... but the site came first.

Scott Macpherson

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2009, 05:25:27 PM »
Jeff, Jeff, Neil, Tom,

If we agree that having the creative talent onsite in long bursts does result in a superior product, do you think the clever clients are the ones who insist/pay for that person to be there? Or, in your combined experiences, it is an architect/creative talent (and I do not at all exclude people like Mark Parsinen from this who is both client & creative talent) who decides (for various reasons e.g. there are inspired by the site, it is close to their office, they don't have much other work on etc) how much time they choose to devote to a project?

scott

Tom_Doak

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2009, 06:45:58 PM »
Scott:

Every client talks the talk about wanting me to be there a lot, but I have yet to have a client offer to double my fee so I would forego other work and be there twice as much.  ;)  Therefore, in the end, it is up to me (and to outside factors) to decide how much time I need to spend on a particular project.

And as my example of St. Andrews Beach goes to show, if the project is very efficiently organized and on a site that's easy to build, I don't necessarily have to be there for many days in order to be there at all of the key decision points.  That is one reason I like to have my own staffing of the construction site -- it allows me to control the pace of construction, and to have the right things happen when it fits the rest of my schedule.  If there's a contractor running the job, they control the schedule -- and I have had instances where the contractor deliberately made the schedule such that it would be harder for me to see something being built than it should have been, just to remind me that they were in control.

Chris Kane

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2009, 08:39:49 PM »
And as my example of St. Andrews Beach goes to show, if the project is very efficiently organized and on a site that's easy to build, I don't necessarily have to be there for many days in order to be there at all of the key decision points.  That is one reason I like to have my own staffing of the construction site -- it allows me to control the pace of construction, and to have the right things happen when it fits the rest of my schedule.  If there's a contractor running the job, they control the schedule -- and I have had instances where the contractor deliberately made the schedule such that it would be harder for me to see something being built than it should have been, just to remind me that they were in control.
And your co-architect spent quite a bit of time there as well.  ;)

Jud_T

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2009, 09:10:12 PM »
67 days-hmmm, I wonder when the last time arnold palmer spent 25% of that on site?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jason Topp

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2009, 07:23:09 AM »
While I understand the concept, it sure does not seem like older courses that have stood the test of time necessarily follow this premise.


How does that explain Mackenzie's courses in Australia or some of our treasured Scottish courses where Braid spent one day on site?

Tom_Doak

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2009, 07:34:24 AM »
And as my example of St. Andrews Beach goes to show, if the project is very efficiently organized and on a site that's easy to build, I don't necessarily have to be there for many days in order to be there at all of the key decision points.  That is one reason I like to have my own staffing of the construction site -- it allows me to control the pace of construction, and to have the right things happen when it fits the rest of my schedule.  If there's a contractor running the job, they control the schedule -- and I have had instances where the contractor deliberately made the schedule such that it would be harder for me to see something being built than it should have been, just to remind me that they were in control.
And your co-architect spent quite a bit of time there as well.  ;)

Chris:

Yes, Mike Clayton spent a fair amount of time on site as well.  I don't know exactly how much, really, you'd have to ask him.

The guy who spent the most time there, though, was Brian Slawnik.  And he and I have spent a lot of time together over the years, which is why I feel I don't need to be there every day in order for my ideas to be there.

Brian Phillips

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2009, 08:29:46 AM »
67 days-hmmm, I wonder when the last time arnold palmer spent 25% of that on site?
No, but many of the large firms do have an associate or Project Manager on site full time.  For example Robert Trent Jones II always have their own Construction Manager on nearly all of their jobs. Palmer has never classed himself as a designer but he admits he owns a Golf Course Design company.

One thing all of you have to remember when discussing Tom's work is that most of it is Design and Build (just like our work) and that means it is much easier to have at least one of your best men or design associates to live on site as a combined Shaper/Finisher or Project Manager.

I am a great believer in Design and Build contracts and we nearly always try to convince our clients to employ us as a Design and Build team.  When we redesigned Stavanger Golfklubb I hired an apartment next to the driving range to live on site during the week and travel home at weekends.

If the EIGCA of which I am member banned their members from working with Design and Build I would have to resign as I feel our best work is done as a Design and Build team.

Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tom_Doak

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2009, 08:46:27 AM »
Brian:

I don't still have the "days on project" for all of my associates at Pacific Dunes, but I believe Jim Urbina was on site 170 days, and Brian Slawnik the same or more.  Bruce Hepner was on site for probably as many days as I was, and Don Placek made two long stints there as well.

Scott Macpherson

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2009, 10:12:06 AM »
Tom, Brian,

Thanks for your input. So is this discussion really about control? Control of construction and control of the detailed design work? Is the ability to visualise the desired outcome and then control the process of achieving it what the best architects can/could do?

So when D.Ross or H.S Colt were away from site, their inability to make subtle changes meant either a lead member of the construction crew/design associate did it or no one – and that is where the quality of the product suffered.


If anyone ever did it, I would be interested to see a full list of the courses designed by some of the greats, say MacKenzie, Colt and Tilly, and have listed next to each one how much time that architect spent at each site. Did the best courses get the most attention from the architect? Maybe the premise of this is wrong. Maybe the lead architect doesn't need to be there but a great Foreman does?


So what does the old saying about 'learning from history', means in this case? That clients should insist architect spend more time on-site? Or at least the architect should have a qualified rep based on-site? ....


scott




Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2009, 10:14:16 AM »
If the EIGCA of which I am member banned their members from working with Design and Build I would have to resign as I feel our best work is done as a Design and Build team.


[/quote]Brian it is interesting you mention this. I never joined up back in 1990 because then you were not allowed to design and do the build and I was not prepared to alter how I wanted to work. I have never found the need to join since.

Of my projects there is one where I spent just 6 days on site and I regret not insisting to the client I should be there more, but I took this job on when I had too much on. The routing is good, the greens were built pretty much as per the drawings but it just lacks a few things. They have never since consulted me and have now put a pond infront of a drivable par 4, which in years to come I might get blamed.

I woud think in this day in age with the ability to send videos and pictures instantly it would be much easier to work with a great lead man on site and communicate through him and the visuals. Not the very best but perhaps 90% there.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 10:21:56 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2009, 10:26:59 AM »
Scott:

You are starting to see the big picture now.

However, in the end, there has to be a balance between the two approaches. 

If you take "delegation" to its logical conclusion, then the product isn't really that designer's at all, unless his associates fear him so much as to just regurgitate the same ideas that worked before.  Dr. MacKenzie stretched the limits of this approach, but at least the routings were his own, and much of the genius was contained there; whereas many times today, the principal of the firm is not really the one who does the routing, either.

If you take "principal on site" to its logical conclusion, well, it's hard to run a business one project at a time when the lead time on them is so long and so many of them fall through.  In the end, that method is just not as productive as it should be.  But that only matters when you get to the point where the architect in question can really be considered better than the many alternative choices who are available and need the work, so it's a balance point that is always in flux.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2009, 11:00:17 AM »
Adrian,

I have taken to using digital technology to be there when I am not there, dating back about 10 years now when it first became feasible.  Somewhere in my files I have some photos from the Quarry where I used a digital red line to get some earthform skylines more rugged than had already been built and to mark which trees near a green I wanted saved and which I wanted removed. 

That tech could be used more, since I usually remember what I want even more than the shapers and field guys. It is amazing what gets confused about ten minutes after said. Its best to mark stuff out in the field when you are there. If you want a tree saved, put a ribbon on it right then (and of course, make sure they know the system, so they don't cut it down wihen they see the ribbon!)

I even recall one case where they asked me where to put a cart bridge and to avoid a wet trek through the creek, I pointed from the bank to an obvious location.  Within an hour, they had moved the bridge to another location since it wasn't actually marked, and in that location, it was visible, in play, etc.

So, yes, digital technology is about 90% there, but not all the way.

But, in the bigger discussion, I doubt that many posters truly understand how many decisions go into day to day building of a golf course.  And many are made by others than the gca and even their associates.  I have had cases where the construction company moved the bridge or path due to unstable soils and it was the right decision, even if I thought it was the wrong location from a pure design standpoint.  Since they have some guarantees in their work, its hard to tell them they must build a bridge on unstable soils, nor is it wise since the bridge might fall in no matter who said it goes there.

Brent Wadsworth used to telll his foreman that it was their job to buld the course even better than the gca's plans, which didn't mean they were changing the design, but merely making it work as well as possible in a practical context. However, they also bring good stuff from one gca to the next.  Of course, they all have some great (and a few not so great) shapers and I doubt that any one gca could stable any more talent in that dept.  One example is filling the toes of slopes further out and making them fuller, despite whether the plans show it or not.  Another from my experience was them moving catch basins slightly further away from tees or upsizing pipe based on their field knowledge of how much water shot through a particular area.

It may not matter what the construction contracts are all about, but it does matter that the construction people love golf courses and design, too.  I usually feel as if LUI, Wadsworth, Mid America and a few others basically are at my call when they build my golf courses and its possible to attain synergy with a good contractor and the right people.  I don't really need to own bulldozers to build a golf course!

And in general, using a big contractor pays dividends on a tough site or when unusual problems occur since they have seen them before.  In short, you can never have too much experience on a construction site and relying only on perhaps the limited knowledge of the gca's field guys might be  detrimental.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brian Phillips

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2009, 11:52:53 AM »
And in general, using a big contractor pays dividends on a tough site or when unusual problems occur since they have seen them before.  In short, you can never have too much experience on a construction site and relying only on perhaps the limited knowledge of the gca's field guys might be  detrimental.


This paragraph is very, very important.  On nearly every project we have had we have used local contractors for much of the main muck shift and of course the blasting which in Norway happens a lot!  The locals and large construction have the experience to move lots of material in short spaces of time and it is also important to use local guys on the projects as a goodwill gesture as well.

I love working with local contractors and farmers as they often know the ground better than we do and know where to get hold of different types of kit when we need it.  The drawback is that they are often very ROUGH with their work and are obsessed with cubic shifted. the bottom line and speed which can be very detrimental.  Many on here will not believe the number of times I have shut the site down due to poor weather and the local guy has gone complaining to the client that we are crap and should be out working in that rainstorm that he calls a slight drizzle...
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 12:01:15 PM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2009, 12:10:46 PM »
Brian,

I have had that happen.  Especially when stripping topsoil, it comes out in chunks and it just seems to never be quite the same, or it takes a lot longer to get rid of the chunks when respreading.  Any chance the earthmover was working hourly on that project and was more concerned with keeping things going/billing rather than productivity?

In northern MN, about as close to Norway as we get, I have seen that happen in reverse, but with snow and ice.

The owner wondered why the earthmover wasn't working in freezing but clear weather.  The contractors experience was that working in frozen dirt compressed it and made it take longer to thaw out in the spring, hence slowing the schedule even more.  Luckily, they only worked a small portion of the holes while frozen before deep snows ended the issue and I was able to see first hand the next spring that their experience was correct.

When I have subcontracted portions out like you describe, I usually went with the earthmover who had the widest variety of machines, even if their hourly rate is cheaper. If you hire a truck firm, they think trucks is the best way to move dirt.  If you hire a scraper firm, its scrapers, and a top load firm will top load the driest of dirt, often at greater expense.

That happens to golf contractors, too, despite experience.  I had one wet job where the contractor slugged through with scrapers.  They finally gave the rest of the dirt to a local, who took two weeks to rim ditch the property to dry it out and then moved earth with ease.  Local knowledge on a golf course starts during construction!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2009, 12:13:50 PM »
I will also add that I don't think construction speed in general is a bad thing.  Moving faster usually equals less cost.  If the earthmovers are moving fast, its not their responsibility to slow down to the gca's schedule. Its the gca's responsibility to keep up with them with more frequent field visits.  They don't mind a few changes, but in general, its best to have some method of directing them as they go, no matter how fast (consistent with quality, of course)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2009, 12:31:27 PM »
Pete Dye has probably given more personal attention to Crooked Stick than other course and I think it could be argued it was a better, more interesting golf course the day it opened. Casa de Campo may be a close second in time devoted, and I think the same statement could be made. Muirfield Village is another one; IMO the original design was the high point.

If you consider Bobby Jones a co-designer of ANGC was his long term stewardship over the course a good and positive influence?

Brian Phillips

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2009, 12:43:43 PM »
What about the first TPC Sawgrass opening?  Tom D would probably know more about that than anyone on here I suppose?
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tom_Doak

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Re: Best courses have received architects personal attention
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2009, 01:43:49 PM »
In short, you can never have too much experience on a construction site and relying only on perhaps the limited knowledge of the gca's field guys might be  detrimental.



Jeff:

So far it's worked out pretty well for me; but the guys I have in the field generally have as much experience as anyone a contractor have supplied us.

Brian:

I don't know what you are asking about the TPC at Sawgrass.  I played it when it was new, but I only started working for Mr. Dye the year after it opened.

Mr. Dye is probably the best example you could name of an architect who spent a lot of time on site in order to obtain his best results.  When I worked at Long Cove, he was there darned near every day, except when he went away for a few days to work on the routing for Austin C.C.  He and Alice pretty much lived on site when he was building The Golf Club, Crooked Stick, Harbour Town, Casa de Campo, Kiawah, and a few others, and most of those are his best work.