Kelly-you are correct, no one would be able to walk up to Oakmont and not know something of its stature. And your example of Tobacco Road, while good, doesn't really capture what I was shooting for. You are different from the average golfer. Tobacco Road has the "wow" factor as well, lots of it. And that 'wow' hits you from the first tee and really doesn't stop (actually, it hits you on the drive up to the clubhouse when you see 14 and the tee shot on 18). Without that "wow" that people get from TR, it would just be another course that beats people's brains out. And not highly enjoyable to play. Thats what I am looking at: what would the average golfer think of a course? What goes through their mind? And most golfers, if they walked off 18, felt like they played decent golf but shot 10-15 shots higher than normal would probably say it was a poor design and a poor golf course.