[Philippe Binette]

I was watching SWWOG Sorenstam vs Pepper at Kiawah at the aerials got me thinking how diffrent that course must have looked compare to what was built in 1991.

I don't know all the inside story but I felt like the look of the course, the angles etc. must have been an inspiration for Sand Hills, after all hw many courses were built in a dune setup in those years? . I supposed Bill Coore was involved in the construction (might be wrong) and if so, must have gotten inspired.

Once again, the genius of Pete Dye cannot be overlooked

so was Kiawah Island an inspiration for the rugged style, and therefore Sand Hills?

[Tom_Doak]

Philippe:

You are WAY off base with this one.

The construction superintendent for Kiawah was Jason McCoy (now with Greg Norman).  My friend Scott Pool (who sometimes works with Jerry Pate and sometimes works on his own) was the main shaper, or one of them anyway.  In 1991 Bill Coore had already been on his own for four years, though I think he had only two designs to his credit [Rockport and Kings Crossing in Texas], and he was working on Kapalua.

Dick Youngscap and Ron Whitten had been talking about a course in the Sand Hills since I met them both at Firethorn in 1983 ... before Kiawah was even a gleam in Landmark's eye.

[C. Squier]

From what I understand, Prairie Dunes had a deep influence on the creation of Sand Hills. 

[Philippe Binette]

OK,
maybe not Sand Hills, but was Kiawah Island the beginning of a return to the rugged style ?

[Ronald Montesano]

I like this question, Philippe...It is akin to asking what caused the grunge counter-revolution of Nirvana, Pearl Jam, STP, et al., to the techo sound of the 1980s.  Back to the roots, back to the soil.

I'm glad that you took the risk and started this thread.  Sometimes an early miss results in a later and greater hit.

[John Moore II]

But was the 'rugged' design at Kiawah really a product of pure design, or more of fitting a great course onto the property?

I think a good bit of this 'rugged' style comes from the sites chosen as much as it does design intent. Its what fits best on the property. Even Fazio and Nicklaus have turned to the natural style because they have been given more natural sites (Fazio's work at #8, Forest Creek and World Woods comes to mind, as does Jack's collaboration with Doak and some of his desert courses). It also stems from them not being in housing developments, as well.

Correct me if I am wrong, please, but I think this is as much a 'trend' in design as much as its a trend in property selection.

[Ronald Montesano]

...because the rugged property was less likely to be selected for housing or suburban centers?  I can see that point of view clearly.  However, would the developer/owner been less likely to build at all, if she/he was not enamored of this style?  This begs the parallel thread "What would (insert name of maximalist designer here) have done with the (insert rugged property here) land?"

[Tom_Doak]

For that matter, Kiawah was not all that rugged in its appearance when it opened, as far as I can recall.  When I played it before it opened, the edges of the waste bunkers were pretty clean.  Time and weather have altered its look a bit ... and maybe the success of other courses has influenced it, too.

But in general, I agree with John that Kiawah and Whistling Straits have both been allowed to look more rugged because they are not in housing developments, and because rugged is in vogue.

[John Moore II]

...because the rugged property was less likely to be selected for housing or suburban centers?  I can see that point of view clearly.  However, would the developer/owner been less likely to build at all, if she/he was not enamored of this style?  This begs the parallel thread "What would (insert name of maximalist designer here) have done with the (insert rugged property here) land?"

You make a good point, but weren't courses like Sand Hills, Ballyneal and Bandon Dunes intended to be get-away spots? So in that way, they were meant so that people could get away from the city and play a great golf course. It just so happens that the rugged style worked best. I think in many ways, thats why the courses were built in general, to give people (moneyed people, of course) the ability to go somewhere far away, take a break, and play golf. The type of golf course itself, was secondary, perhaps.

[Ronald Montesano]

It is safe to say that none of the three mentioned above (SH, BN and BD) will ever be victimized by sprawl.  The course of my youth, Grover Cleveland muni, was in 1912 the Country Club of Buffalo, site of the US Open that year.  The city moved out and so did the well-to-do.  Won't happen with these reserves, although I hear that Pete Dye GC is in danger of Bridgeport, W.V. sprawl

[John Moore II]

But those three courses, and many others, were purpose built to not be in the way of sprawl. Just look to where I am right now in Raleigh, NC. First Raleigh CC and Carolina CC were "outside of town" when they were built. Then it went out to North Ridge CC, then to Wakefield and now all the way to Hasentree which is a full 40 minutes or more from Raleigh center. The same happens with all major cities. I think its safe to say that NGLA and Shinnecock were not nearly as "close" to the city when they were built as they are today. And again, that was the purpose of Sand Hills, et al. To be far away from anything; they won't stay that way forever, but it will be many, many years before any significant population center is seen around any of those courses.


But as a secondary consideration, weren't all the "best" courses (in America anyway) originally designed to be a decent ways away from the population centers? Were the great courses like Pine Valley, NGLA, CPC and others like that very close in to the city when they were built? So in many ways, the modern great courses follow the same model. They are built semi-far away from the population centers, however, today its a lot farther because there are more cities and travel is much easier. Discuss??

[Tony Weiler]

That course looked brutal in the wind last night (Annika/Dottie match).  I'd have to move up a box or two just to finish it!

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mr. Dye resurrected "rugged" in the United States decades before Kiawah.

Comparatively "cleaned up" these days, courses like Crooked Stick, The Golf Club, and of course, TPC Sawgrass were originally very rugged.

[Philippe Binette]

Definitely Jeff, Mr Dye ressurected rugged, corky, caracter, angles, f***ed up might be an opinion by some, in course design.

OK, here's my 3rd try at this, what was the last major (impact on TV) course built on open ground, with high grass, sandy undefined areas before Kiawah Island ?

The course must have looked way different when it pop up on TV in 1991. Outside the Open Championship, Shinnecock Hills in 1986 might have been the last time of that look on TV I'm guessing here, I was 5 back then

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