Whip it Out: Post your Top 25 Courses Played

[PCCraig]

A matchup between Ravisloe and Old Elm is laughable. Ravisloe is a fine golf course (maybe the best public value in Chicago), but to say it doesn't have a weak hole makes zero sense. #7 is not a good golf hole. Neither is #11, really. There are some pretty blah holes too...#2? Just a straightforward whatever par-5.


Old Elm is an incredible golf course. I won't go as far as to say there isn't a 'weak' hole, but it's weakest holes are better and more interesting than the best holes at Ravisloe.

[BCowan]

A matchup between Ravisloe and Old Elm is laughable. Ravisloe is a fine golf course (maybe the best public value in Chicago), but to say it doesn't have a weak hole makes zero sense. #7 is not a good golf hole. Neither is #11, really. There are some pretty blah holes too...#2? Just a straightforward whatever par-5.


Old Elm is an incredible golf course. I won't go as far as to say there isn't a 'weak' hole, but it's weakest holes are better and more interesting than the best holes at Ravisloe.

You wouldn't want to deviate from conventional group thought or this basically is an exercise in who is a maint whore and presentation clouding ones judgement.  As I stated earlier in the thread 7 is prob the only okay hole at Rav.  #11 is an outstanding long par 3, great little shaved nob right of the green and probably one of my personal favorite for over 210.  The 2nd hole is a good par 5, I'd take over the opening hole at Old Elm. In order to hit it in two to a back right pin one has an advantage coming in on the proper side.  Very much disagree with your last paragraph.  Rav can't get higher then a 7 due to soft maint presentation and trees IMO. I stand by my 7.8 rating. To be 8-10 course has to be firm imo. 

[PCCraig]

A matchup between Ravisloe and Old Elm is laughable. Ravisloe is a fine golf course (maybe the best public value in Chicago), but to say it doesn't have a weak hole makes zero sense. #7 is not a good golf hole. Neither is #11, really. There are some pretty blah holes too...#2? Just a straightforward whatever par-5.


Old Elm is an incredible golf course. I won't go as far as to say there isn't a 'weak' hole, but it's weakest holes are better and more interesting than the best holes at Ravisloe.

You wouldn't want to deviate from conventional group thought or this basically is an exercise in who is a maint whore and presentation clouding ones judgement. 

Ben,


I have been singing Old Elm's praises for nearly 10 years now both here on GCA and offline. I was doing so before most if not all of the folks on here had ever played it. Old Elm was a Top 3 course in Chicago pre-Rogers and Zinkland renovation, and their work has since only cemented my personal "ranking."


I'm not saying that Ravisloe is a bad golf course, it just isn't anywhere close to being on the same level as Old Elm.

[BCowan]

Pat,

   We can agree to disagree.  The important thing is one can give reasons why they like or don't like a course.  Old Elm is a great course, many great nuances.  With so many great courses in IL, MI, and OH there really is no reason to leave the midwest. 

[Bill McKinley]

Ben,   Congrats on a nice 2015. Am I reading your list correctly with Ravisloe ranked higher than Old Elm, Indianwood Old, and Canterbury? If so, why? And if possible expand on why Old Elm?

Jack,

    You are reading the list correctly.  Old Elm is a very solid Golf course as is Ravisloe which I feel is vastly underrated.  I played each once, so you can take that into account.  I know I am in the minority here, but that is okay.  I also have come to realized that 5 plays is best when assessing a course though that is tough to do with such limited time, I'd like to play Ravisloe again to see if my first impression was good. 

Old Elm  Doesn't really have a weak hole.  The course has very good nuances and some uniqueness to it.  The holes that stood out to me were #3 (love the front to back slope, quirky hole), #11, #12 and #18 were my favorite.  It is nice to play a course with new grass for it was really Firm as was Mt Prospect.  Double green is fantastic.  The negatives were the irrigation pond on #2 (big deduction IMO) on a solid hole.  The Par 5's seemed to be mostly half par's.  I didn't like some of the teeth shape like bunkering on some holes.  I didn't like the HOC around the greens, felt it was way too short and unneeded.  There is need for more tree removal.  I love the tilt of the 18th green. 

Ravisloe  Ravisloe really doesn't have any weak holes, the #7 might be okay.  The bunkering at Rav is some of the best Ross iteration I have seen.  Some very unique cool holes there.  #3 might be in top 5 of par 5's I've played, #4, #5 (very unique), #8, #11 (one of the best long par 3's I've played), #13, #18 (cool bunkering) all standout holes to me.  #9-10 and #15-16 are solid.  The green contours are very solid.  Negatives are that the course lacks one or two ball buster par 4's.  Oh well, but same I think can be said about Old Elm.  Tree removal is def. needed and I hope someone talks the owner out of planting trees.  Course would play well Firm and true. 

Old Elm vs Ravisloe
Par 3's- Ravisloe by a nudge- more variety
Par 4's- Old Elm
Par 5's- Ravisloe

Indianwood  I have a well traveled friend who thinks it's the best in MI.  I think the land is the best inland land I have seen next to Muskegon for a golf course (I don't get around).  I think the routing is very solid.  I think the bunkering is like furniture out of place.  The par 3's are too redundant.  The 17th green is the best IMO and then the 18th.  The greens are very boring excluding the last two.  I love the quirky 9th hole, good example of quirk.  I have played it 2-3 times.   

Canterbury  First off the staff and caddies are top notch.  The greens are the best part of the course, but nothing one hasn't seen before.  Standout holes for me are #4, #9, #12, and #15.  I'm indifferent about #16.  The negatives, The greens would be great at 10.5, but I think they cut them super low to try and impress people.  The 3rd hole is weak.  There are 3 different bunker designs going on.  There is a floating pond on the 10th hole.  I'm not impressed with the finish as many others.  Way over treed.  A few forced holes there.  The course is a 5, hopefully Hepner can turn it into a 6.5-7.   2 plays

Ben,


Thank you for the kind words on the staff and caddies at Canterbury. And I certainly can respect your opinions on what you liked and didn't like about the golf course. We all have our own opinions and that is what makes discussions on this board great!


However, your line about us cutting our greens super low to try and impress people just doesn't sit right with me. Our members want and expect fast and firm playing surfaces. And I (and our Superintendent) wanted all those that played in the 2014 Mashie to experience that. To say that we did "to impress you" implies some sort of backhanded comment. I can assure you that the way the golf course was presented that weekend was to try and give participants the full Canterbury experience, albeit in colder than normal October conditions.


But, thanks for playing in the 2014 Mashie, it was great to meet you and all the others who played. Be sure to look for CGC on TV this fall in the Web.com playoffs. And our renovation, by Bruce Hepner, will start right after that event concludes.
Best,
Bill

[Jason Thurman]

If the conditioning at Canterbury in the 2014 Mashie was supposed to impress me, it worked. The maintenance meld was perfect for my tastes, and I especially loved that the fast and firm greens put a premium on keeping the ball below the hole, which drove strategy all the way back to the tee. The quality of the course and its playing conditions were obviously reflected in the quality of the winning team that the event produced.


Of course, we all have different tastes. I can accept that some people are deeply offended by retention ponds and certain bunker shapes. Personally, I just like courses with a lot of cool shots that give the player a canvas on which to shape the ball, hit a wide variety of clubs, and make risk/reward decisions. Canterbury succeeds about as well as any course I've ever played in that regard. It's an easy course to overlook because it's not particularly flashy and it's the type of subtle layout that requires a player to figure out how the angles and slopes of the greens affect strategy. A player who isn't savvy or experienced enough to understand the options available in playing the course will spend a lot of time out of position and not really understanding the shot demands in front of him. He'll dismiss it as the average tough Golden Age course with greens that are too fast for their contours, but a player who can control his ball and play the course wisely will have just as much fun planning his route to each hole as he will executing that plan.

[BCowan]

Bill,

   First off sorry to have offended you.  To clarify I assumed the speeds you had them at the Mashie were the speeds they are for member and guest play day in and day out.  I am very much against the Green speeds arms race.   

   Thanks again for hosting the Mashie, it was a first class event and I look forward to Hepner's work.  Bill, would love to have you up in SE Mich for a game

-Ben

 

[Jason Thurman]

''A player who isn't savvy or experienced enough to understand the options available in playing the course will spend a lot of time out of position and not really understanding the shot demands in front of him. He'll dismiss it as the average tough Golden Age course with greens that are too fast for their contours, but a player who can control his ball and play the course wisely will have just as much fun planning his route to each hole as he will executing that plan.''

Are you implying me Jason?  Many good courses require shaping and reward angles.  You really didn't say anything prolific just a bunch of fluff.  How many courses require one to keep the ball below the hole, never seen that before.

I don't think Canterbury REQUIRES shaping, but it definitely rewards and encourages it. I also think it rewards angles better than most courses due to its green slopes and shapes. The pinnable lobes behind bunker on the greens at 2, 9, and 13 make certain hole locations far more accessible from one side of the fairway or another, for example, while the severe slopes of greens like 1, 8, and 18, to name a few, really require a player to consciously play below the hole or risk getting screwed even after a well-struck swing.


In my experience, very few courses possess a set of greens that affect strategy from the tee and fairway the way that the ones at Canterbury do. Crystal Downs and Pinehurst No. 2 might be the only courses that I've played where the slopes and shapes of greens affect my planning on approach shots as significantly as those at Canterbury, and honestly staying below the hole doesn't matter much on most courses where the greens lack either slope or speed. We've had this discussion before, but I like fast greens and found the ones at Canterbury to be just about perfect.


So yes, I do think there's a lot going on at Canterbury that you failed to pick up on but that other players do see, as proven by the course's lofty reputation - not that there's anything wrong with that, as your perception of the course is as much your own as mine is my own, and you see plenty of things that I don't see in courses like Mid Pines and Elks Run. If you're more fixated on retention ponds and whatever issues you see with the bunkering on hole 3 at Canterbury as opposed to the remarkable tee-to-green strategic elements that the course puts on display for 18 holes, then you should feel free to prioritize places that you find more palatable. I only chime in because Canterbury is firmly in my top 25 and I think that including another perspective on it has value.

[BCowan]

I was up all night thinking about Canterbury and having regretted offending Bill and not using a better choice of words.  I think that Canterbury has a lot of potential and I retract my comment, ''they have greens you can find anywhere''.  I have Canterbury's green designs ahead of Scioto, Kirtland, MVGC.  Inverness, OSU (Scarlet pre JN), and Canterbury are top tier complex's of Ohio's best courses I've played.  The 12th hole at Canterbury is my favorite hole on the course and surprised it doesn't get mentioned more often.  Lastly Canterbury is a great club to spend a day or multiple days at.  They are lucky to have someone like Bill McKinley who understands the big picture more then most. 

Jack,

   I'd drive from Ann Arbor to play Ravisloe in a New York minute.  I don't care if I'm 1 in 100 or 1,000. 

[J_ Crisham]

Bill,
     I found Canterbury to be outstanding in every facet. The conditioning of the fairways , greens , bunkering, etc. was impressive . It's one terrific course that I hope someday to revisit. My original question re: Indianwood, Canterbury, and Old Elm vs Ravisloe was kind of a Huh? did I really read that right moment. Ravisloe , while being fun golf has always been a second tier course in Chicago . I wouldn't travel from Cleveland to Chicago to play Rav- as you know I did drive to Cleveland last year for Canterbury - it was well worth it. It's a perrenial Top 100 Classic because it's that good. Aside from the course you have a club steeped in golf tradition - it's a veritable museum. How many clubs have a Masters Champion Green jacket on display?  To each their own but I must say I was really impressed with your club. Hope all is well with you!

[Joe Zucker]

As a native Clevelander, I was lucky to play in a few Keily Cups at Canterbury (annual high school tournament named after their legendary caddie master).  I have found the difficulty of the course to be incredibly subtle.  The greens are always fast, but that's not what makes it tough.  Jason noted the importance of knowing the required angles to attack pins.  There are many classic courses where a 10 foot putt on one side of the hole is worse than a 30 footer on the other side.  Canterbury falls into this category and I view it as a positive characteristic.  It keeps the course interesting and challenging over many plays.


Obviously these subtle and difficult movements in the greens are accentuated by modern green speeds.   I can appreciate how this may not be ideal for everyone, fortunately there are thousands of courses for us to choose from.  For me this does does not negate the importance of strategy or thinking around the course.  The greens force the player to plan two or three shots ahead, which make it one of the best place to play in Ohio.

[Tom_Doak]

My favorite book has an excellent quote about making choices in life:  that if you come up with multiple reasons to choose something, you should NOT choose it, because for a really good choice, one big reason should be enough.  In that line of thinking, here is the weakest link in the chain:

Aside from the course you have a club steeped in golf tradition - it's a veritable museum. How many clubs have a Masters Champion Green jacket on display?

Of course, Ben has offered way too many reasons in favor of Ravisloe, too, and will most likely be disappointed with its rating in The Confidential Guide come fall.  Chacun a son gout!

[Mark Pritchett]

Chacun a son gout!

Looking on my phone, for a brief second I thought this was Klingon!

[PCCraig]

Of course, Ben has offered way too many reasons in favor of Ravisloe, too, and will most likely be disappointed with its rating in The Confidential Guide come fall.  Chacun a son gout!

Tom Doak,


Which of the 4 Confidential Guide contributors visited Ravisloe?

[J_ Crisham]

My favorite book has an excellent quote about making choices in life:  that if you come up with multiple reasons to choose something, you should NOT choose it, because for a really good choice, one big reason should be enough.  In that line of thinking, here is the weakest link in the chain:

Aside from the course you have a club steeped in golf tradition - it's a veritable museum. How many clubs have a Masters Champion Green jacket on display?

Of course, Ben has offered way too many reasons in favor of Ravisloe, too, and will most likely be disappointed with its rating in The Confidential Guide come fall.  Chacun a son gout!

Tom,
      If I understand your premise correctly a fine collection  of golf memorabilia should lessen your decision to visit a club with a fine golf course? For some of us golf memorabilia that is specific to the history of the club adds to the enjoyment of the day.

[Eric Smith]

Chacun a son gout!

Looking on my phone, for a brief second I thought this was Klingon!

[David_Moorhead]

A matchup between Ravisloe and Old Elm is laughable. Ravisloe is a fine golf course (maybe the best public value in Chicago), but to say it doesn't have a weak hole makes zero sense. #7 is not a good golf hole.

Pat, I don't necessarily disagree with your comment about Rav #7, but I am intrigued by it.  I don't like the hole, but I have always thought that was primarily because it doesn't set up well for me.  That said, the green angle from front right to back left combined with a few carry bunkers forces you to pick a line and distance.  What makes it not good?  I am not defending the hole; I actually would like a non-personal reason to dislike it.   

[Simon Holt]

Not sure if I can get to 25......in fact I am going to throw caution to the wind and list them in order of how much fun I have/had playing there.  Some may be 'better' courses in terms of GCA but these put a smile on my face which is what its all about.

In paranthesis my top 10 in GCA terms

1. North Berwick  (6)
2. Cypress Point  (2)
3. Royal Dornoch  (5)
4. Pine Valley  (1)
5. TOC  (4)
6. Muirfield  (3)
7. Pasatiempo (
8. Renaissance Club  (7)
9. Kingsbarns (10)
10. Royal Troon (9)
11. Spyglass Hill
12. Hoylake
13. Bethpage Black
14. Gullane No. 1
15. Loch Lomond
16. Kilspindie
17. Leven
18. Dunbar
19. Champions
20. Shadow Hawk
21. Brora
22. Elie
23. Crail (Balcomie)
24. Leven
25. Stanwich

I need to play more courses!!!

3.5 years and a lot of air miles later.  This is as objective(ish) as I can be about what is actually on the ground.  My experiences at these wonderful places and the wonderful places not on the list, would probably make for more interesting read.

Pine Valley
Muirfield
TOC
NGLA
RCD
Cypress Point
ANGC
Portrush
Royal Dornoch
Seminole
Friar's Head
North Berwick
Sunningdale Old
Merion
Dismal Red
Ballyneal
Muirfield Village
Trump Scotland
Cruden Bay
Garden City Mens Club
Prestwick
Streamsong Blue
Maidstone
Turnberry
Pasatiempo
Kingsbarns

Update after a few more air miles.

Pine Valley
Muirfield
TOC
Oakmont
NGLA
RCD
Cypress Point
ANGC
Royal Melbourne (West)
Tara Iti
Royal Portrush (Dunluce)  - I expect this to rise after the alterations
Royal Dornoch
LACC (North)
Kingston Heath
Seminole
Friar's Head
North Berwick
Sunningdale Old
Merion
Lahinch
Crystal Downs
Pebble Beach
Portmarnock GCKinloch GC (New Ze\
Garden City Mens Club
Turnberry (Ailsa)

[Sean Ogle]

Saw this thread and figured I'd add mine. This is very much a personal favorites, not highest ranked - as I think that was what the thread asked for:

• Pebble Beach
• Royal Dornoch
• Cruden Bay
• Bandon Trails
• North Berwick
• San Francisco Golf Club
• Boston Golf Club
• The Club at Black Rock
• Maidstone
• Diamante (Dunes)
• Somerset Hills
• Hudson National
• Arcadia Bluffs
• Whistling Straits (Straits)
• Bandon Dunes
• Pasatiempo
• Kingsbarns
• Yale
• Tobacco Road
• Waverley
• Blackwolf Run (River)
• Pronghorn (Fazio)
• Myopia Hunt
• Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow)
• Cal Club

[Bill_McBride]

Pat,

   We can agree to disagree.  The important thing is one can give reasons why they like or don't like a course.  Old Elm is a great course, many great nuances.  With so many great courses in IL, MI, and OH there really is no reason to leave the midwest.

Unless you wanted to play the great courses of the West Coast, East Coast and the U.K.    Your comment is pretty provincial. 

[Tom_Doak]

Of course, Ben has offered way too many reasons in favor of Ravisloe, too, and will most likely be disappointed with its rating in The Confidential Guide come fall.  Chacun a son gout!

Tom Doak,


Which of the 4 Confidential Guide contributors visited Ravisloe?

Only me, as of today.


P.S.  Apologies that I didn't know how to get the French accents to come up in italic on my keyboard ...

[Sean_A]

[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Not the most impressive list, but some great memories....GC, WFW, FH and BPB were all in the same long weekend thanks to a very benevolent host. [/color][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]

Sand Hills[/color]
Prairie Dunes
Southern Hills
Austin Golf Club
Pebble Beach
PH #2
Dormie Club
World Woods Pine Barrens
Pine Dunes
Harbour Town
Garden City
Winged Foot West
Bethpage Black
Friars Head
Streamsong Blue
Streamsong Red
TPC Sawgrass
Kapalua Plantation
Dallas National
Waterwood National
Granville
Riverdale Dunes
Camp Creek
Blackwolf Run
Whistling Straits
Erin Hills
Talking Stick

Chris


Talk to me about Granville.


Ciao

[Chad Anderson (Tennessee)]

Many members have some wonderful list on here!  I'll attempt my 25.


Monterey Peninsula CC - Shore
Seminole
Victoria National
Pinehurst #2
Cascata
Secession
Long Cove
The Honors
The Golf Club of Tennessee
The Virginian
Mid Pines
Tobacco Road
Olde Stone
The Olde Farm
Holston Hills
Floridian
May River
The Farm
Chattanooga G&CC
Tennessee National
Harbour Town

[Paul Stockert]

We all need to reach out to Alan Shipnuck and remind him that the Whip it Out posts are supposed to be limited to 25.  Heck of a list.  And now I need to return to my desk job...sigh...


This site will probably like his 'troll' of ANGC fans on twitter.



http://www.golf.com/golf-plus/shipnuck-100-best-golf-courses-i-have-played-worldwide

[Joe Schackman]

We all need to reach out to Alan Shipnuck and remind him that the Whip it Out posts are supposed to be limited to 25.  Heck of a list.  And now I need to return to my desk job...sigh...


This site will probably like his 'troll' of ANGC fans on twitter.



http://www.golf.com/golf-plus/shipnuck-100-best-golf-courses-i-have-played-worldwide

Saw this yesterday. I'm just impressed he could put together a list of 100 courses that people have heard of! I dip into no-names/muni's pretty quickly. Guess it helps to write about golf for a living rather than sitting at a desk!