[Andrew Thomson]

Matt,

I'm amazed that you have TWO local courses ahead of Royal Queensland.  Did you play Royal Queensland, or just have a wander around?

[Matthew Mollica]

I wandered around RQ Thommo, and didn't play.

I rolled balls around the green.
I have a laser range finder, camera, dictaphone, green reader (angle finder) and pad and pencil,
along with an anemometer (wind gauge), golf ball or two & yardage book & score card when I walk and don't play.

When I visited RQ I spent a little over 4 hours out there. I ended up listing -

Brookwater 25
The Grand 29
Royal Qld 31

2 questions (and please don't think I'm defensive, I'm really keen to read your thoughts) -

Did I need to 'play' RQ?

Which way would you have put the Qld courses and why?

MM

[Andrew Summerell]

I have a laser range finder, camera, dictaphone, green reader (angle finder) and pad and pencil,
along with an anemometer (wind gauge), golf ball or two & yardage book & score card when I walk and don't play.

No wonder I'm not on a ranking panel. I don't have any of those things.

[Jim McCann]

Mathew : Thanks for publishing your Top 50 list -
 

              - nice gig, getting to play them all every two years!!!

[Sean_A]

I don't know anything about Oz golf, but I have a few questions.

1. Does the country merit having a top 50?  I know I always believed that GB&I shouldn't have a top 100.  It should be more like top 50 or maybe 75.  I don't think there are enough worthwhile courses to have a top 100.

2. Why do folks think there is a bias against very short courses in Oz?  I believe there are several quite short courses listed amongst the top whatever in GB&I and I believe there should be more, but perhaps there is a bias here as well.

3.  Where on the list does the quality really start to noticeably drop?

Ciao

[Andrew Thomson]

My view is that you need to play, but I wouldn't know the first thing about officially rating a course.  Given you spent 4 hours there, I'd imagine you'd have been itching to hit a few shots.  I'm guessing here, but I assume you don't/didn't play because that would have given you a 'one-dimensiona'l view of the course through your own game?

So to answer.

1. I think so.  My experience, as an example, is that I had previously walked Kingston Heath several times, and had caddied there in an Australian Open and found it difficult to really form an opinion on it, then I played it (and the first game I shot 100+ playing off hcp of 6) and instantly it raced up my 'personal ranking'.  Having said that, walking the course as a spectator and caddying, are very different to visiting a course for the sole purpose of 'rating' it.

2. I'm not sure where I'd put RQ, but I'd have it somwhere in the Top 25 or thereabouts.  As for other QLD tracks, I'd find it difficult to squeeze another one into my Top 50 to be honest, though I have never really thought about it.  I'm not even certain which I'd rate as #2 in QLD, I'd probably actually lean towards Pelican as it doesn't have as many really weak holes as some of the other 'resort' layouts.  For example, Brookwater 8-10 for me make it almost ineligible for consideration.

[Andrew Summerell]

Sean,

The big difference that I have found in my travels is that GB&I has a much stronger 2nd tier of courses. In other words, courses that aren’t generally considered ‘great’ by the masses, but are still exceptional courses. Courses like Woking, New Zealand, RCP, Western Gailes, Nairn & Formby are those sort of courses for me & in some cases I consider them better than their more fancied rivals.

In Australia, world class drops off after the first 3 or 4 courses & the 2nd tier ends at about 20 or 25.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

The big difference that I have found in my travels is that GB&I has a much stronger 2nd tier of courses. In other words, courses that aren’t generally considered ‘great’ by the masses, but are still exceptional courses. Courses like Woking, New Zealand, RCP, Western Gailes, Nairn & Formby are those sort of courses for me & in some cases I consider them better than their more fancied rivals.

In Australia, world class drops off after the first 3 or 4 courses & the 2nd tier ends at about 20 or 25.

Andrew

Cheers!  Yes, GB&I has a strong rep for its 2nd and 3rd tier courses.  I am a huge fan of Woking and Formby and would place them among the top 50 of GB&I without a doubt.  The US, doesn't have such a great rep for its lower tiers, but it should as many say the 50-100 places could go to any of perhaps 100-200 courses.  

3 or 4 world class?  Where do you reckon world class ends in GB&I?

Ciao

[Andrew Thomson]

Andrew,

I think our depth is better than that, based on my own travels.  I just think we have a tendency to mark 'our own' a bit harder.  For instance, I view Commonwealth and Woodlands as outstanding golf courses, and Matty has them at 14 and 15, and I've seen Woodlands as low as 60 on one of these lists.  I guess it depends where some courses end up on a list, that determine the depth!

What would be an interesting exercise, is a Top 50 Australasian List.

[Andrew Summerell]

Where do you reckon world class ends in GB&I?

It’s difficult, because there are many courses that I love (North Berwick West, Prestwick) that many would consider too quirky, yet I’m not a big fan of Turnberry. I remember reading once that Royal Liverpool was 20th on some list. I like RL, but there are plenty of courses I would place ahead of it. Wentworth West always rates well, but apart from coming away with an amazing story on one occasion, both times I’ve played it I was underwhelmed, pre & post Els work.

I'm sure I could list 20 world class courses in GB&I.

[Andrew Summerell]

For instance, I view Commonwealth and Woodlands as outstanding golf courses

I agree, they are both outstanding courses, but I would still consider them in the same bracket as Woking, Berkshire (Red), St Georges Hill, New Zealand, etc. & they would be considered 2nd tier GB&I courses.

What would be an interesting exercise, is a Top 50 Australasian List.

What would be interesting is a GB&I/Australia list.

[Josh Stevens]

I don't know anything about Oz golf, but I have a few questions.

1. Does the country merit having a top 50?  I know I always believed that GB&I shouldn't have a top 100.  It should be more like top 50 or maybe 75.  I don't think there are enough worthwhile courses to have a top 100.

2. Why do folks think there is a bias against very short courses in Oz?  I believe there are several quite short courses listed amongst the top whatever in GB&I and I believe there should be more, but perhaps there is a bias here as well.

3.  Where on the list does the quality really start to noticeably drop?

Ciao

the simple answer is - yes of course Australia is entitled to have a top 50, to suggest otherwise is pompous in the extreme.  The better question would be where the line would be drawn for courses that would fall into a world 100 or perhaps a US 100 if they were in the US. 

Who the hell knows - the first point to note of course is that the US has more golfers than Australia has people so of course the range of courses is going to be a bit limited.  The second point is the lack of variety - the UK has the both the links and surry sandlbelt style, but by and large the top Australian courses are dominated by the Melbourne style - even the likes of Royal Adelaide, Kooyonga and Karrinyup are influenced by this, with Barnbougle being the only real links opton.  If anything the range is getting narrower with the 1980's resort courses largely falling out of the lists now, and so at in the end we realise it is a small place with limited need to build more courses.

So if we were to place Victoria, Karrinyup, Kooyonga, and say perhaps The Lakes in the US, would they be rated in the US top 100 - quite possibly.

[Mark Chaplin]

I'm lucky enough to have played 6 of the top 20 plus RQ, a course I have very fond memories of is Royal Hobart. I'd be surprised and impressed if there are 50 better courses in Australia, is it out of favour or just so out of the way it doesn't get any attention??

[Josh Stevens]

Dave,

 Of all the courses we have worked onI think Karrinyup is probably the most fun to play - perhaps just ahead of The Lakes.
The land is very good and I think the combination of better greens, tree rationalisation that really improved holes like 11,interesting par fives especially 3 and 11 and the improvement to the short holes - 8 and 12 - make it a much better course than it was.
It is also a beautiful place to play golf.

 
How much of that is a result of terrain??  Karrinyup is probably the hilliest of all the courses in this list, a fact for which it is often criticised.  Otherwise, if you look at this list, it is by and large a pretty flat bunch with a few exceptions.  Are Oz courses any flatter or hillier than the global average

[David_Elvins]

Mathew : Thanks for publishing your Top 50 list -
 

              - nice gig, getting to play them all every two years!!!

Jim,

I think it is worth noting that Matthew doesn't exactly "get to play them every two years".  He goes to great effort, (and presumably expense) to play them every two years. 

There are so few raters in the world who would go to this trouble and it is great for golf that Matthew takes his responsibilty as a course rater so seriously.  His efforts are also reflected in the thouroughness of his list which is IMO probably the best around.

[Kevin Pallier]

Where on the list does the quality really start to noticeably drop?

Sean

I think our Top4 are most definitely World Top100 courses. Then 5 to 20 are pretty much our 2nd Tier and so on.

The quality starts to get more "open" from say 40 onwards IMO.

I agree with Andrew - there's at least 20-30 courses in GB&I that are World Top100 quality.

[David_Elvins]

As a (slightly) interesting sidenote.

Other than a bit of recent work at Royal Adelaide, the top ten course don't have a single water hazard between them. 

[Neil_Crafter]

David
The water that is now on Royal Adelaide was never planned as a hazard for the course - they are wetland ponds to clean stormwater drawn from the adjacent suburban areas which is then returned to the aquifer for later reuse. Not really in play on 14 although a big pushed tee shot on 15 could get wet, and not in play on 16. What do you call the ocean at NSW and Barnbougle? Or the "cut" on 15 at Barnbougle? Just wondering what your definition of a water hazard might be then....

[David_Elvins]

Neil,

I was going to write 'constructed water hazard' but I thought people would get the point.  I think it is an interesting point with regard to the best Australian designs, in particular compared to American designs.  

It fits in nicely with another statistic form the list - the top 26 courses are all on land that could best be described as Sandy.  

I would conclude that:
-Australia is lucky in that most of the major population centres have good sandy land that is ideal for golf.  
-No-one has had the money and knowledge, and inclination to construct a great (or even very good) course in Australia on clay soil in the style of say, Merion or Passatiempo or Augusta National.  *I haven't seen Ellerston.
-Good Australian courses lack diversity.  There are ALOT of courses in the top 25 with a Mackenzie or Clayton link.  Nothing wrong with that at all but it just shows that the best Australian courses lack the diversity of the best US courses.

[Jim Tang]

For the locals, any whisperings where Lost Farm may end up on that list?  Or, is it too early in the construction phase to determine where LF might fall?  I have seen pics of the land LF will occupy and it looks just unbelievable.

[David_Elvins]

For the locals, any whisperings where Lost Farm may end up on that list?  Or, is it too early in the construction phase to determine where LF might fall?  I have seen pics of the land LF will occupy and it looks just unbelievable.

No one has said it isn't in the same ball park as Barnbougle. 

[Kevin Pallier]

Along wih Mike and Matthew - am happy to share my list:

Kingston Heath
Royal Melbourne (West)
Barnbougle Dunes
New South Wales
The National (Moonah)
Royal Melbourne (East)
Royal Adelaide
Woodlands
Commonwealth
Newcastle
Peninsula (North)
St. Andrews Beach
The Golf Club Kennedy Bay
Victoria
Metropolitan
The National (Old)
Portsea
Peninsula (South)
Barwon Heads
Yarra Yarra
Magenta Shores
13th Beach (Beach)
The Lakes
Lake Karrinyup
The Dunes
Kooyonga
Brookwater
Moonah Links (Legends)
Royal Sydney
Royal Canberra
Grange (West)
The Grand
The Glades
The Australian
The Cut
Laguna Quays
Joondalup
Pelican Waters
Amstel (Ranfurlie)
Moonah Links (Open)
The Vines (Lakes)
Hope Island
Cottesloe
Pacific Dunes
Huntingdale
Hyatt Regency Coolum
Terrey Hills
Sanctuary Lakes
Spring Valley
Sanctuary Cove (Pines)

There's a few subtle differences between our rankings - mostly from those at the back end of our respective lists.

[Brian Phillips]

I wandered around RQ Thommo, and didn't play.

I rolled balls around the green.
I have a laser range finder, camera, dictaphone, green reader (angle finder) and pad and pencil,
along with an anemometer (wind gauge), golf ball or two & yardage book & score card when I walk and don't play.

Matty,

You are one sad SOB....do you sleep with those gadgets at night...

I can just imagine the conversations around your breakfast table with your missus....

[Sean Walsh]

Kevin,

No love for Port Fairy?    

Mark,

I have played Royal Hobart once and was a nice course.  It was ten years ago though and before I had played many great courses or thought much about their strategy.  It struck me as similar in style to the Melbourne Sandbelt,  very sandy soil with good bunkering and although flat a little movement in the land.  

[Kevin Pallier]

Kevin,

No love for Port Fairy?    

Sean

Unfortunately - I haven't had the opportunity to date to play Port Fairy. It's very high on my TO DO list though.

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