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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2009, 02:09:20 PM »
So we wake up the next morning, have breakfast, get our golf bags in the carts and head to the 1st tee, a drive of about a mile.  We stop at the range, which is about midway, hit some balls and continue to the 1st tee.

The drive to the 1st tee is rather uneventful because you’re mostly driving along the base of  the dunes and ridges, rather than on top of them, thus, your view is limited.

After a long ride you arrive at a rather Spartan structure, a combination rallying point, starter’s shack, half way house and 19th hole.

From this structure you have a rather expansive vista.  You can see a good deal of the golf course and miles and miles of land far beyond the golf course.  One thing is for sure, you are isolated in a golf course.

In our group today was our host, Gene Greco, and his son Chris, a very handsome young man who's a good golfer and quite poised on the golf course.  It's immediately obvious that Chris gets his good looks, athletic ability and social skills from his mother.

The walk from the structure down to the 1st tee is a little on the long side, but, when you arrive, you look out and one of the first things that registers on your eye and mind is the scale of  the golf course, it’s immense, as are the bunkers.  For me, immense bunkers tend to look closer than they really are, so I’m beginning to question how much of the slight dogleg corner I might be able to cut off.  Then I think, do I want to start my Sand Hills experience by hitting my first drive into that massive, left side fairway bunker.  I opt for “safety first” and drive to the center of the fairway from the Diamond tees.  We opt to not play from the double diamond tees, although, on holes where there were double diamond tees, like # 4, we went back and hit some tee shots just to get a feel for the holes from the double diamonds.  One thing is clear, the double diamond tees present a more strident challenge and alter the play of the hole considerably

I like wide fairways, so I have an instant connection with Sand Hills with its generous fairways.

After two holes I notice what appears to be a pattern, high tee, lower fairway, high green.
As I play the golf course that observation appears to be confirmed.

There was a uniqueness to the approach and setting of the first green which I really liked.
I loved the setting from the tee boxes and the second green, along with the view from the second green.
That view, confirmed what we observed on the ride from North Platte to Sand Hills, that the entire area could accommodate an infinite number of quality golf courses.  It may be the best large area of  land for golf in the entire U.S.

As we play the golf course, other than the 4th green, the greens seem to transition seamlessly from the fairways, allowing for runups, which I would imagine are required when the wind is up.
Today, there’s barely a zephyr of a breeze in the air, which, I’m told is a rarity.
Two weeks prior to the trip to Sand Hills I was at GCGC and ran into Boomer Esiason, who was a member of Sand Hills, he advised me to make sure I brought a wind vest/jacket with me, because as he told me, the wind can “howl” while you’re playing.  Subsequent to the trip I ran into him again and told him that he owed me for the wind vest/jackets I bought.  He was shocked to hear that we didn’t encounter any wind.

As we play the golf course I see how the wind can dramatically effect the play of each hole.
I also realize that without wide fairways, in strong wind, the golf course could become unplayable and more importantly, NO FUN.  It is the wide fairways that allow the golf course to remain fun no matter where the wind comes from, or how strong it is.

Another observation is that with the greens, emerging seamlessly from the fairways, are effectively larger, which also helps under windy conditions.

But, Mother Nature robs us of the experience of playing the golf course under windy conditions.

The greens are at a good pace, but, with high wind velocity, they would be unplayable if they were faster.
I make this same observation at the courses at Bandon, Oregon.

The 4th green seems out of place, in structure and playability, still, it’s a wonderful hole with some of the largest, most expansive bunkering I’ve ever seen.  Golfers are literally dwarfed, swallowed up by the massive scale of the bunkers.

I liked the back, upper tee on # 5.  While it made the hole play considerably different, I liked the presentation.  Under windy conditions I imagined that there was no way to hide your tee shot.

As the round progressed, one of the other things I liked was the lack of repetition.  Each hole was distinctly different, even though the HLH pattern seemed prevalent.

Playing the back nine I found one of my all-time favorite holes, # 13, a par 3 with a “Skyline” green, one of my favorite features in golf.  There were a number of holes with the “Skyline” effect, # 2, # 5 and # 11 all had that flavor.  But, # 13 was special, a difficult uphill par 3 with danger lurking left, right and long.
I could play that hole over and over and over again and never tire of the challenge.

The par 5’s were interesting.
I liked the 1st hole and thought it was a perfect opening hole, allowing ample margins for mis-hits, nervousness, etc., etc.  It also made eagle and birdie possible.  No one likes to travel hundreds or thousands of miles and face an overly difficult 1st hole, one that can ruin your round despite decent play.

# 14 was one of those holes where eagle and birdie were attainable.

The greens at # 1 and # 14 were small and narrow requiring accuracy on the approach and a deft touch on recoveries.  Both greens were pitched, back to front with # 14 having more slope.

# 16 differed from # 1 and # 14 in view, feel and play.
It was all downhill, almost like a roller coaster ride to a large green offset slightly left.
A very unique and interesting hole.

The 17th, a par 3, became another favorite of mine.
It’s a perfect example of target golf with little in the way of architectural margins for error in the surrounds.
The tee sits cut into the base of a hill that rises behind it.
I learned that there was an upper tee, far back and on top of the hill.

Armed with a few clubs and balls, I would subsequently make the trek up the hill the next day with Ran and play the hole.  Hitting that green from up there is a frightening, daunting task, without any wind.  With any kind of wind, it’s got to be exponentially more difficult, if not impossible.  I can see why they abandoned the tee, but wish that they had kept it maintained, just to challenge lunatics like myself who want to try those impossible shots, just to say that they did it.

Coming off of the 17th green and walking around to the 18th tee, you’re again struck by the immense scale of the place.  The left side fairway bunker is immense, and you know that if that magnet like bunker attracts your ball, par will be an extremely difficult, if not an extremely lucky score.  # 18 is another of those HLH holes requiring a great drive and a great approach shot.

I also liked the rusting, creaking windmills that littered the property, they add a unique flavor.
Unfortunately, without a breeze they weren’t enjoying many RPM’s.

We finished our round and began our climb to that Spartan structure where the rest of our contingent was enjoying lunch and a few beers.

Tom Huckaby was rather subdued and being attended to and consoled by others in his group.

Ran Morrissett had challenged him to a match.
Ran would use “Hickories” and Tom would use his regular clubs.
On the 1st tee, Ran had whined his way into convincing Tom to give him an inordinate, if not a foolish amount of shots.

I think Tom underestimated the quality of Ran’s “Super Hickories” and Ran’s ability to wield them
Ran did use a new Titleist, probably a Pro-V.

Since Ran and Tom were playing ahead of us, where holes were nearby, I ambled over to see how their match stood.  From the outset it was clear that Tom had no chance.  As the round progressed, I didn’t have to amble over to see them, as Ran was “prancing” down the fairways, telling me everything I need to know about their match.

As Tom Huckaby drowned himself in sorrow and vast quantities of beer, Ran was in his glory recounting every hole, if not every shot in their match.  I was surprised by his effectiveness and efficiency with his Hickories.
Was he trying to “psych” me out for our pending match the next day ?
Was he just as surprised as we were with his performance ?
Was he just lucky ?
Was he gaining confidence for our showdown ?

Ran and I have had a number of matches at a number of courses and to date, his lone victory had come at Inniscrone, outside of Philadelphia.  His most painful loss was at Plainfield, where he had me 5 down after 7 holes.  When my long birdie putt rolled in on # 15 to put him “Dormie”, he knew that the “fat lady had sung”  My most painful loss was my only loss.

So, we both were looking forward to our match the next morning.

For the rest of the day and at dinner, the conversation centered on Ran’s destruction of Tom Huckaby, whose apparent weakness in his golf game is negotiating on the first tee, and how Ran would claim another victim the next day.

To be continued.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 02:12:00 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2009, 03:12:56 PM »

In our group today was our host, Gene Greco, and his son Chris, a very handsome young man who's a good golfer and quite poised on the golf course.  It's immediately obvious that Chris gets his good looks, athletic ability and social skills from his mother.

Tom Huckaby was rather subdued and being attended to and consoled by others in his group.

As Tom Huckaby drowned himself in sorrow and vast quantities of beer, Ran was in his glory recounting every hole, if not every shot in their match.

For the rest of the day and at dinner, the conversation centered on Ran’s destruction of Tom Huckaby, whose apparent weakness in his golf game is negotiating on the first tee, and how Ran would claim another victim the next day.

To be continued.


I love your ability to poke fun at others - and I bet it's no fun to get behind in a match with you.  The needling would be endless!

I must admit I love listening to these types of stories.  Give me a few beers and a comfortable chair and I could listen all night.

"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2009, 03:35:47 PM »
Scott,

What's "needling" ?

Is that like knitting, crocheting or fine point ?

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2009, 08:52:01 PM »
Patrick,

I just love your golf stories.

Thanks !

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2009, 09:30:03 PM »
Scott,

What's "needling" ?

Is that like knitting, crocheting or fine point ?

Fine point, most likely!
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2009, 10:28:19 AM »
JC:

   Up in the Sand HILLS at 4000 ft the wind comes from every direction.  In that magical valley, where Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw bulit what many think is the greatest golf course in the world, the wind swirls and allows one to play each hole in every direction of wind with great regularity, many times on the same day. I have played the 216 yd par 3 third with an 8 iron early in the morning, 3 iron in the late morning/early afternoon and a driver later on.

There is no prevailing wind despite how Patrick the fox tries to mislead the reader.  

He's a brilliant man with part of his brain in his tongue and on the tips of his fingers.

Because of this he types and makes statements without much control from his cerebrum.

He spins his web to pull in and hold the reader in a very convincing manner.

The inexperienced, those who read the words on this website to somehow cathartically try to feel  what it might be like to be on a particular golf course, are easy prey.

Patrick gets a doctorate in bullshit.

Just look at his wife.

She is drop dead gorgeous. Patrick looks like he just arrived from a planet in another solar system.  

To further make my point, while he was at the Sand Hills Golf Club golfing his ball he understandably always rode in a cart due to his recovering medical state.

Yet, Patrick has held firm that and Sand Hills is a difficult walk. Again, he rode so how much validity is there in his position?

Furthermore, he has stated the green to tee walks are "disjointed". How could he know this if he didn't walk???

Many on here have explained to Patrick that the green to tee distances are in most cases SHORT but he will have none of it. I have even demonstrated to him that the green to tee walks at another course which many feel is the greatest in the world, Shinnecock Hills Golf Club, are longer and more disjointed (walk from 3 green to 4 tee) and more uncomfortable (think the walk up to 15 tee) than anything at Sand Hills.

Again, just silence from the man with the thinking finger tips.

And now this crap about the wind.

In fourteen years I have played the course over 250 times.

Patrick has played seven rounds of golf there. Incredibly, those four days were without wind. Nada.

Yet he is more of an expert in wind direction at the Sand Hills GC than any of us.

However, Patrick's ability to accurately (or inaccurately) dissect a golf course from an architectural aspect and his on screen persona differs from his real life presentation.

The man can flat out play.

He is fun to play with and is the ultimate anatgonist to play against in a match. You will never love trying to beat someone as much as you wanna beat him.

Despite his completely unyielding demeanor, his stubborness and his touch of arrogance there are few people with whom I have enjoyed playing with more, this greatest of games.

In other words, THERE IS NO PREVAILING WIND AT THE SAND HILLS GOLF CLUB!

And why are the fairways so wide.......

                 Gene



 




  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Tom Huckaby

Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2009, 10:55:44 AM »
OK, when one is so clearly mentioned, one need respond.

First... I have to say AMEN to all Gene just said, every last word of it.  That is absolutely gospel and I could not agree more, about Pat Mucci and about Sand Hills.

Second... about Pat's stories.... well.... I shall just respond to this:

"For the rest of the day and at dinner, the conversation centered on Ran’s destruction of Tom Huckaby, whose apparent weakness in his golf game is negotiating on the first tee, and how Ran would claim another victim the next day."

Every word Patrick writes about my match with Ran is oh so sadly gospel truth as well.

 :'(

My god was that a great trip. 

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2009, 11:26:04 AM »
OK, when one is so clearly mentioned, one need respond.

First... I have to say AMEN to all Gene just said, every last word of it.  That is absolutely gospel and I could not agree more, about Pat Mucci and about Sand Hills.

Second... about Pat's stories.... well.... I shall just respond to this:

"For the rest of the day and at dinner, the conversation centered on Ran’s destruction of Tom Huckaby, whose apparent weakness in his golf game is negotiating on the first tee, and how Ran would claim another victim the next day."

Every word Patrick writes about my match with Ran is oh so sadly gospel truth as well.

 :'(

My god was that a great trip. 


Welcome back.You need to stick around.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2009, 11:48:17 AM »
OK, when one is so clearly mentioned, one need respond.

First... I have to say AMEN to all Gene just said, every last word of it.  That is absolutely gospel and I could not agree more, about Pat Mucci and about Sand Hills.

Second... about Pat's stories.... well.... I shall just respond to this:

"For the rest of the day and at dinner, the conversation centered on Ran’s destruction of Tom Huckaby, whose apparent weakness in his golf game is negotiating on the first tee, and how Ran would claim another victim the next day."

Every word Patrick writes about my match with Ran is oh so sadly gospel truth as well.

 :'(

My god was that a great trip. 


It's about time - glad to have you back! 

I think there will be some GREAT stories that come from this, as well as some CORRECTIONS to adequately represent the TRUTH!

Anxiously awaiting the next chapter in the story....

"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2009, 01:02:10 PM »
16, 17, 18 at Elizabeth Manor

15, 16 17 at Willow Oaks

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2009, 10:10:58 PM »

JC:

   Up in the Sand HILLS at 4000 ft the wind comes from every direction.  In that magical valley, where Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw bulit what many think is the greatest golf course in the world, the wind swirls and allows one to play each hole in every direction of wind with great regularity, many times on the same day. I have played the 216 yd par 3 third with an 8 iron early in the morning, 3 iron in the late morning/early afternoon and a driver later on.

JC, that makes sense to me since the 3rd hole flows NW to SE, the same general direction as most of the primary runways at the regional airports.


There is no prevailing wind despite how Patrick the fox tries to mislead the reader.  

I wonder why those engineers oriented those runways NW to SE and W to E ?


He's a brilliant man with part of his brain in his tongue and on the tips of his fingers.

Because of this he types and makes statements without much control from his cerebrum.

He spins his web to pull in and hold the reader in a very convincing manner.

The inexperienced, those who read the words on this website to somehow cathartically try to feel  what it might be like to be on a particular golf course, are easy prey.

Patrick gets a doctorate in bullshit.

Just look at his wife.

She is drop dead gorgeous. Patrick looks like he just arrived from a planet in another solar system.

This is true, everyone knows why I married her, but no one can figure out why she married me.


To further make my point, while he was at the Sand Hills Golf Club golfing his ball he understandably always rode in a cart due to his recovering medical state.

That's not accurate.
While I did take a cart, I also did a good deal of walking.


Yet, Patrick has held firm that and Sand Hills is a difficult walk. Again, he rode so how much validity is there in his position?
The HLH configuration makes for difficult walking.  I would cite the walk from # 9 tee to # 9 fairway as just one example of a difficult walk, and I did make that walk.


Furthermore, he has stated the green to tee walks are "disjointed". How could he know this if he didn't walk???

How would you describe the walk from # 9 green to # 10 tee, another walk that I made ?


Many on here have explained to Patrick that the green to tee distances are in most cases SHORT but he will have none of it. I have even demonstrated to him that the green to tee walks at another course which many feel is the greatest in the world, Shinnecock Hills Golf Club, are longer and more disjointed (walk from 3 green to 4 tee) and more uncomfortable (think the walk up to 15 tee) than anything at Sand Hills.

I never made any comparison between the walks at Sand Hills and Shinnecock.


Again, just silence from the man with the thinking finger tips.

And now this crap about the wind.

In fourteen years I have played the course over 250 times.

Patrick has played seven rounds of golf there. Incredibly, those four days were without wind. Nada.

I can only relate the conditions I experienced.


Yet he is more of an expert in wind direction at the Sand Hills GC than any of us.

No, I just relied on the orientation of the primary and secondary runways at nearby airporrts, figuring that they understood wind direction better than any of us.


However, Patrick's ability to accurately (or inaccurately) dissect a golf course from an architectural aspect and his on screen persona differs from his real life presentation.

The man can flat out play.

He is fun to play with and is the ultimate anatgonist to play against in a match. You will never love trying to beat someone as much as you wanna beat him.

Despite his completely unyielding demeanor, his stubborness and his touch of arrogance there are few people with whom I have enjoyed playing with more, this greatest of games.

In other words, THERE IS NO PREVAILING WIND AT THE SAND HILLS GOLF CLUB!

The only way I could agree with that statement would be by conducting additional research in the form of additional play on additional days ;D  


And why are the fairways so wide.......

No doubt because of the severe prevailing winds ;D

Scott, do you remember my initiaal response to you ?


Scott Szabo,

Since you requested it, I'm going to relate the "TRUE" story.
You need not listen to any other versions.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 10:14:04 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #61 on: December 21, 2009, 10:15:05 PM »

JC:

   Up in the Sand HILLS at 4000 ft the wind comes from every direction.  In that magical valley, where Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw bulit what many think is the greatest golf course in the world, the wind swirls and allows one to play each hole in every direction of wind with great regularity, many times on the same day. I have played the 216 yd par 3 third with an 8 iron early in the morning, 3 iron in the late morning/early afternoon and a driver later on.

JC, that makes sense to me since the 3rd hole flows NW to SE, the same general direction as most of the primary runways at the regional airports.


There is no prevailing wind despite how Patrick the fox tries to mislead the reader.  

I wonder why those engineers oriented those runways NW to SE and W to E ?


He's a brilliant man with part of his brain in his tongue and on the tips of his fingers.

Because of this he types and makes statements without much control from his cerebrum.

He spins his web to pull in and hold the reader in a very convincing manner.

The inexperienced, those who read the words on this website to somehow cathartically try to feel  what it might be like to be on a particular golf course, are easy prey.

Patrick gets a doctorate in bullshit.

Just look at his wife.

She is drop dead gorgeous. Patrick looks like he just arrived from a planet in another solar system.

This is true, everyone knows why I married her, but no one can figure out why she married me.


To further make my point, while he was at the Sand Hills Golf Club golfing his ball he understandably always rode in a cart due to his recovering medical state.

That's not accurate.
While I did take a cart, I also did a good deal of walking.


Yet, Patrick has held firm that and Sand Hills is a difficult walk. Again, he rode so how much validity is there in his position?
The HLH configuration makes for difficult walking.  I would cite the walk from # 9 tee to # 9 fairway as just one example of a difficult walk, and I did make that walk.


Furthermore, he has stated the green to tee walks are "disjointed". How could he know this if he didn't walk???

How would you describe the walk from # 9 green to # 10 tee, another walk that I made ?


Many on here have explained to Patrick that the green to tee distances are in most cases SHORT but he will have none of it. I have even demonstrated to him that the green to tee walks at another course which many feel is the greatest in the world, Shinnecock Hills Golf Club, are longer and more disjointed (walk from 3 green to 4 tee) and more uncomfortable (think the walk up to 15 tee) than anything at Sand Hills.

I never made any comparison between the walks at Sand Hills and Shinnecock.


Again, just silence from the man with the thinking finger tips.

And now this crap about the wind.

In fourteen years I have played the course over 250 times.

Patrick has played seven rounds of golf there. Incredibly, those four days were without wind. Nada.

I can only relate the conditions I experienced.


Yet he is more of an expert in wind direction at the Sand Hills GC than any of us.

No, I just relied on the orientation of the primary and secondary runways at nearby airporrts, figuring that they understood wind direction better than any of us.


However, Patrick's ability to accurately (or inaccurately) dissect a golf course from an architectural aspect and his on screen persona differs from his real life presentation.

The man can flat out play.

He is fun to play with and is the ultimate anatgonist to play against in a match. You will never love trying to beat someone as much as you wanna beat him.

Despite his completely unyielding demeanor, his stubborness and his touch of arrogance there are few people with whom I have enjoyed playing with more, this greatest of games.

In other words, THERE IS NO PREVAILING WIND AT THE SAND HILLS GOLF CLUB!

The only way I could agree with that statement would be by conducting additional research in the form of additional play on additional days ;D  


And why are the fairways so wide.......

No doubt because of the severe prevailing winds ;D

Scott, do you remember my initiaal response to you ?


Scott Szabo,

Since you requested it, I'm going to relate the "TRUE" story.
You need not listen to any other versions.


This is just starting to get good!

"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #62 on: December 21, 2009, 11:12:23 PM »
So we finished the second round of the first day and we're sitting up on Ben's porch downing beers, some snacks and recollections of the day.

Ran is prancing like a peacock, he's everybody's pal.
Tom Huckaby is consuming vast quantities of alcohol, trying to analyze his round and where he went wrong.
To prevent him from jumping off the porch, I offer him a chair and console him, telling him that he played great, and, even if he had played better, it wouldn't have mattered, since Ran had conned him into giving him an ungodly number of strokes.

Now, if the truth be told, I probably would have done the same thing because our perception of a guy's ability to score well when playing with hickories, especially a guy of Ran's limited abilities, is that it can't be done.  We think of hickories as impediments to scoring well.  What Tom Huckaby didn't know was that Ran had more than ample experience in playing with hickories. He had spent the last few weeks playing with them and he knew pretty much what he'd shoot, whereas, Tom Huckaby had no fact based frame of reference.  Neither did I and neither did anyone else in our group.  Only Ran knew how he'd score, and he took advantage of the unsuspecting Huckaby.

Anyway, after soaking his soul in suds, Tom Huckaby opts to carry his own bag and play nine more holes.
He is getting no sympathy from the group, only grief, and Ran, is flittering around like "Tinker Bell" reveling in his distruction of the unsuspecting Tom Huckaby.

We continue to drink and through binoculars observe Huckaby’s progress around the front nine.

When he completes his journey, we head back to shower, change and have dinner.

At dinner, our gracious host makes sure that ample supplies of reds and whites are available.
This group does not miss a pour from the young waitresses, who are all quite attractive, efficient, sweet and charming.  They are something of a fresh breeze, probably more like a prevailing wind, to those of us from cities of New York, Philadelphia and Los Angeles.

Each of us recount stories of the day, about a given hole, shot or putt, and about some of the features we found interesting.

Ran of course is telling us which hickory he hit into each hole and how his match stood after each hole.
Tom Huckaby asks the waitress for a larger glass and asks her to fill it to the brim.

TEPaul is recounting how he went about hitting different clubs/shots from the same locations on a given hole, but, the most fascinating story/ies come from Neil Regan.

If I hadn’t witnessed it myself, I wouldn’t have believed the stories.

Neil Regan was using his putter from off the green with great success.
Now when I say off the green, I don’t mean five feet, or five yards off the green.
Neil wielded that putter like a magic wand from 50, 100, 150 yards and beyond.
I had never seen anything like it in my life, and, I have a dear friend who putts from up to 80 yards off of a green, but, Neil’s expertise, from 150 and beyond was amazing.
He could get it closer with his putter than you could with your iron of choice.
AND, had the prevailing winds been blowing, his low ball would have been uninfluenced by them, whereas, the normal golfer would have been eaten alive.

As both Neil and I are recounting his play, others are doubtful, thinking that we’re pulling their leg.

Now here’s where it really gets scarey and you’re hoping that no one  is recording our conversation.

Someone doubts Neils expertise with the putter from these distances, and a challenge is made.
The problem is that we have matches set for the next morning and afternoon, so how can the challenge be resolved ?

There’s only one answer, probably determined by the amount of wine that’s been consumed, we have to go out on the course after dinner, which, is about 11:00 pm and put Neil to the test.  Someone asks, “how can we do this at night ?”  

Now I should tell you that the air is crystal clear at Sand Hills, NE, with the stars and moon illuminating the landscape like I’ve never seen, but, it’s still dark out, and I’m not venturing out where non-city critters may roam.

Then someone says, “ the carts have headlights on them, we’ll line the holes with the carts”
Someone else says, “hey, while we’re doing that, let’s shine the lights on the holes/features/greens and really see how they look.”  Someone else says, “yeah, let’s ride around the entire course and look at every hole and feature.”  

Above all, I’m hoping, if not praying, that no one else at any other table is listening to this conversation, and I’m hoping the waitresses haven’t heard it, and if they have, that they don’t associate the conversation with me.  This is the ultimate in GCA.com Geekdom, and we is it.

For those who have ever putted at night under the headlights of a car you know how pronounced, how magnified the slopes and contours get.  You can really, really see the subtle features that broad daylight seems to mask.  
But, the only time I’ve ever been on a golf course at night, studying anything, is when I was night putting with the Dean’s daughter, or a suitable substitute.  I ain’t going night putting without the Dean’s daughter and I’m definitely not going out on a golf course at night with any of these wine fueled GCA.com Geeks.

The only way I’d go on that course at night is if a waitress offered me dessert, I ain’t goin with Ran, TEPaul, Neil, Gene, Tom, Bob or anyone else, individually or collectively.

I’m also hoping that the guys I knew, who I ran into the previous night, haven’t heard a word of this.

Throughout dinner, Ran is asking me how I’m going to sleep tonight, knowing that I have a match against him tomorrow ?  
I keep responding, “like a baby”.  Then I ask him how he’s going to sleep tonight knowing that TEPaul may leave the windows and doors open again.  Suddenly Ran looks more than a little concerned.

As some of the others head off to pursue night putting without the Dean’s daughter, I head to my room.  

Tom Huckaby

Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2009, 09:26:44 AM »
I respond only to acknowledge the truth of all of this, the greatness of the writer, and to bump it to the top where it belongs.




JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2009, 09:59:22 AM »
Mucci is now, officially, raconteur in residence.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2009, 10:06:34 AM »
This deserves a thread all its own.

I'll keep my comments brief, so as not to detract from Mucci's recollections:

And I quote, "No Night Golf, Late Day Scrambles- When the sun sets you are done playing golf for the day".  Too bad you all had to go and spoil it for the rest of us...........

I'll second Neil's ability with the putter from off the green.  Possibly the only thing he does better is use his camera.

Is there anything quite like a few (or more) beers on Ben's Porch after a day of golf?

And Huckaby, nine more holes all by yourself?  The famous church nine?  Can it get better than that?  Although I'd like to have been a fly on the wall to hear all the ribbing you received while the group passed the binoculars.

Mucci has to be one of the great story-tellers of all time.

Please continue...

"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Tom Huckaby

Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2009, 10:09:27 AM »
Gents, Mucci is ONE of the raconteurs in residence.  Let us not forget the man who puts the R in that word... Bob Huntley.... but Pat is indeed giving him a run for his money here.

 ;D

And yes Scott, that was the Church nine.  All I can say is it REALLY lived up to the name.

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2009, 10:49:21 AM »
     Patrick:


         Are you an aviator now?  :)

Let me guess. You rode shotgun alongside "Sully Sullenberger" during the Miracle on the Hudson.

Ten or eleven years of "The Mucci Red Herring" is enough to stink up any argument where one wants to deal with facts.

Here are some more:


FACT - 

         THERE ARE NO HANDICAPS FOR INDIVIDUAL HOLES INCLUDED ON THE SCORECARD AT SAND HILLS GC.

WHY?

          BECAUSE ONE CANNOT DO SO DUE TO THE EVER CHANGING WIND DIRECTION.

We simply stand on the 1st tee and decide where strokes are to be given for that round or only NINE HOLES based on the direction and force of the wind at that moment. Many times we do the same on #10 for the back nine mid-round because of these sudden changes.



FACT


         THERE IS NO SLOPE OR COURSE RATING FOR SAND HILLS BECAUSE OF THE SAME REASON.

One can not have multiple course ratings for a single golf course. And that's what would be needed here to accomodate the myriad of wind direction and force.



To be fair, Patrick's nose doesn't always look like Pinocchio's.  Tom Paul did in fact ride around in the back of a pick up with a constellation map to see ALL 130 holes!! that Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw had found.
























"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Tom Huckaby

Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2009, 11:10:05 AM »
One more thing from me... in terms of truths, note my comments apply only to the STORY Pat is telling regarding the matches there - so far so good, all verified.  In terms of how the wind is at Sand Hills, the walk, etc... well... go with Gene Greco.

 ;)

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2009, 11:29:50 AM »
Pat,the best part of your telling this story is that you got Huckaby involved again.Hopefully,it will also bring TEP back from exile.My guess is that he'd like to take issue with a couple of your memories.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2009, 11:36:55 AM »
Pat,the best part of your telling this story is that you got Huckaby involved again.Hopefully,it will also bring TEP back from exile.My guess is that he'd like to take issue with a couple of your memories.

I'll second that.  The Rain Man story was one of the funniest I've heard in a while.  Seeing TEP in the back of the pickup looking like he did only adds credibility to it  ;D
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Jeff Spittel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2009, 12:01:08 PM »
Inverness 6 - 8.

230 yard par three with a narrow green and deep bunkers; 480 yard par four to a steeply uphill green; 570 yard par five, uphill for the last 300 yards with a tiny, undulating green.   
Fare and be well now, let your life proceed by its own design.

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2009, 02:42:36 PM »
PGA West Stadium 5,6,7 & 16,17,18 are pretty tough stretches from the tips...

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2009, 08:14:10 PM »
   
Patrick:

Are you an aviator now?  :)

Let me guess. You rode shotgun alongside "Sully Sullenberger" during the Miracle on the Hudson.

"Sully" flew right over me that day.
I had left MSKCC after having undergone my 5 year CT Scans, which were clear of any cancer and was on the GW Bridge when "Sully" flew/glided over me.  How ironic would that have been, getting the all clear on advanced staged cancer only to be killed by a plane that had flamed out and crashed into me on the GW Bridge ?  If that had happened, you know that someone had called my number.  


Ten or eleven years of "The Mucci Red Herring" is enough to stink up any argument where one wants to deal with facts.
I've been careful to make sure that I only related the facts.  To date, nothing I've stated is untrue.


Here are some more:

FACT -  

THERE ARE NO HANDICAPS FOR INDIVIDUAL HOLES INCLUDED ON THE SCORECARD AT SAND HILLS GC.

Agreed, but, I NEVER said that there were handicaps for individual holes on the scorecard


WHY?

BECAUSE ONE CANNOT DO SO DUE TO THE EVER CHANGING WIND DIRECTION.

I don't know that that's the reason.
Plenty of courses on windy sites are able to handicap their holes.
Certainly, you're not going to tell me that the 7th and 8th holes are as diffiuclt as holes # 18 or # 2, no matter which direction the wind

If there were NO prevailing wind, handicpping would be easy if the routing and hole design provided a balanced challenge


We simply stand on the 1st tee and decide where strokes are to be given for that round or only NINE HOLES based on the direction and force of the wind at that moment. Many times we do the same on #10 for the back nine mid-round because of these sudden changes.

FACT

THERE IS NO SLOPE OR COURSE RATING FOR SAND HILLS BECAUSE OF THE SAME REASON.

I don't know that I'd agree with your alleged cause and effect regarding slope.


One can not have multiple course ratings for a single golf course. And that's what would be needed here to accomodate the myriad of wind direction and force.

Your response implies that the course lacks overall balance.  That, as a whole, the overall balance is lost should the wind shift in different dirrections.

Part of the genius of the routing and design of the individual holes at Seminole is the overall balance of the challenge, irrespective of the direction of the wind.

Are you saying that Sand Hills lacks that balanced challenge ?


To be fair, Patrick's nose doesn't always look like Pinocchio's.

I looked up the wind speed and wind direction readings for the months of June, July and August of 2005, from a nearby airport.
Those readings are recorded and graphed on an hourly, daily, weekly and monthly basis.
When you view those readings on a weekly basis you can clearly see prevailing patterns.
Patterns that tend to run SE to NW, the same general direction of the primary and/or secondary runways at the nearby regional airports.
Now, I know you're a man of science, so, are you, like the grit cooking southerner in "My Cousin Vinny" going to claim that the laws of physics cease to exist at Sand Hills.  The recorded data indicates prevailing winds.  The orientation of primary and/or secondary runways at the nearby regional airports seems  to confirm these readings.

Perhaps in your visits to Sand Hills you were so consumed by the challenge presented and the vistas afforded that you never noticed a tendency for the wind to blow in certain directions  ;D  


Tom Paul did in fact ride around in the back of a pick up with a constellation map to see ALL 130 holes!! that Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw had found.

I want everyone to remember that picture, and TEPaul's resemblence to Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw since it will factor into the final episode of this epic journey.

























« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 08:16:19 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most difficult stretch of three holes, par 3, 4 and 5 ?
« Reply #74 on: December 23, 2009, 12:13:33 AM »
Patrick:


    How does the breakdown appear in terms of percentages from the data you referenced? Was your se to nw a clear and significant majority?

 Are the words "prevailing" and "predominant" one and the same?

I would differentiate the two words in terms of a matter of degree.

When I tee it up on the 12th hole at Shinnecock Hills, a 480 yd par 4, in July, I can bet the house I will be playing that hole mostly downwind.
When I turn around and aim for the fairway on #13 (360 yds) I am now playing directly into that wind. Flynn designed these holes with that clearly dominant wind in mind.

That to my mind is a decisive, dominant prevailing wind. Most all who have visited have noticed that this isn't the case at Sand Hills.

And yes, I am a man of science.

But I am not a meteorologist, and neither are you.

The way the wind blows at an airport 60 miles away at a much lower altitude may not necessarily be the same as one subjected to the rise and fall of hot and cold air out of the valley in which the Sand Hills Golf Course rests.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 06:29:37 AM by Gene Greco »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

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