Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?

[Bill_McBride]

#4 is a really tough hole at Royal St Georges.  The tee shot must take on the 60' tall bunker carved out of one of the tallest dunes on the property.  The green is 450 yards away, so if you play safely, it's a tough par 5.  Once you get to the elevated green, it's a slippery roller coaster.  Might be the hardest par 4 I've ever played.

But a lot of fun!

[Ryan Admussen]

How about the hardest downhill 325 yard par 4 on the planet? #14 at Bandon Trails.....  

This came to my mind as well!

[Sean_A]

#4 is a really tough hole at Royal St Georges.  The tee shot must take on the 60' tall bunker carved out of one of the tallest dunes on the property.  The green is 450 yards away, so if you play safely, it's a tough par 5.  Once you get to the elevated green, it's a slippery roller coaster.  Might be the hardest par 4 I've ever played.

But a lot of fun!

Ace

This is a perfect case for my earlier point.  Sandwich's 4th is a tough 4, but an easy 5 if one plays it like a par 5.  Virtually all the trouble of the hole is tied into trying to make a 4 by hitting the green in regulation.  Therefore, I don't view the hole as anything like one of the hardest.  Its just another case of folks getting hoodwinked by the concept of par.

I do seem to recall that Castletown's 5th was pretty narsty.  OOB all down right (a road) with the fairway sloping that way, terrible rough up the left and ever present wind.  It isn't hard to rack up a huge score.
http://www.golfiom.com/course/holes.html




Even with this questionable hole, Castletown is a wonderful course that is terribly under-rated.  

Ciao

[Carl Nichols]

Ace

This is a perfect case for my earlier point.  Sandwich's 4th is a tough 4, but an easy 5 if one plays it like a par 5.  Virtually all the trouble of the hole is tied into trying to make a 4 by hitting the green in regulation.  Therefore, I don't view the hole as anything like one of the hardest.  Its just another case of folks getting hoodwinked by the concept of par.

Sean:
Do you really think the concept of par is irrelevant here?  If I think of 16 at CPC as a par 4, it's probably not a hard hole -- but it's certainly seems to be a hard par 3.  Or if I think of the 9th hole at RCD as a par 5, then it's not really a hard hole, but it sure seems to be a hard par 4.  IMHO, you think of a hole as hard relative to something, and that something is usually its par designation.  Sure, you *could* compare holes to one another, but then you would end up asking whether 16 at CPC is harder than 9 at RCD, and I would surely say 9 at RCD, if all you cared about is my average score on those holes. 

[Sean_A]

Ace

This is a perfect case for my earlier point.  Sandwich's 4th is a tough 4, but an easy 5 if one plays it like a par 5.  Virtually all the trouble of the hole is tied into trying to make a 4 by hitting the green in regulation.  Therefore, I don't view the hole as anything like one of the hardest.  Its just another case of folks getting hoodwinked by the concept of par.

Sean:
Do you really think the concept of par is irrelevant here?  If I think of 16 at CPC as a par 4, it's probably not a hard hole -- but it's certainly seems to be a hard par 3.  Or if I think of the 9th hole at RCD as a par 5, then it's not really a hard hole, but it sure seems to be a hard par 4.  IMHO, you think of a hole as hard relative to something, and that something is usually its par designation.  Sure, you *could* compare holes to one another, but then you would end up asking whether 16 at CPC is harder than 9 at RCD, and I would surely say 9 at RCD, if all you cared about is my average score on those holes. 

Carl

Absolutely.  The difficulty of a hole doesn't change because of the par designation.  Is CPC's 16th any different if it is a par 3 or 4?  I would much prefer to talk about the holes and ignore par.  Par is a concept devised for the best players (and it is out of date now for them!) as a way to easily keep score and really should have no bearing on the holes or course themselves.  Somehow, and I think it started with the USGA standardizing par lengths around 1910, the idea of par displaced the much more reasonable (for handicap golfers) bogey system.  Par then started its gradual ascent into some sort of psycho mind game for players who were never, ever, meant to meet the standard of par.  The entire deal of par is really weird and one that has always perplexed me.

Ciao 

[Greg Tallman]

Old #7 at Sewickley Heights Golf Club 258 yard par 3 (20 years ago!) raised green and deep bunkering. Brutal golf hole... sicne replaced by a more user friendly par 3.

#13 at Mahogany Run on St Thomas USVI. Only about 370 but no place to hit it... you throw a long iron up on the hillside hope it does not hang up in the rough and then stops before running across the fairway into the abyss... If you pull that off you have a 130-150  yards to a tiny green with an ocean inlet just off the left edge and the same hillside to the right from which you could either get a bounce across the green or hung up with an impossible pitch. Oh yeah conditioning (or lack thereof) did not make it far more difficult.

[Kyle Henderson]

Foxy, par-4 #14 at Royal Dornoch, is near the top of my list. I am pretty sure I have parred every other hole on the course at least once.

But it's an easy par 5.

I'm pretty sure I would take at least a 5 on the 5th at Pine Valley, given the opportunity.

[Sean Leary]

Ace

This is a perfect case for my earlier point.  Sandwich's 4th is a tough 4, but an easy 5 if one plays it like a par 5.  Virtually all the trouble of the hole is tied into trying to make a 4 by hitting the green in regulation.  Therefore, I don't view the hole as anything like one of the hardest.  Its just another case of folks getting hoodwinked by the concept of par.

Sean:
Do you really think the concept of par is irrelevant here?  If I think of 16 at CPC as a par 4, it's probably not a hard hole -- but it's certainly seems to be a hard par 3.  Or if I think of the 9th hole at RCD as a par 5, then it's not really a hard hole, but it sure seems to be a hard par 4.  IMHO, you think of a hole as hard relative to something, and that something is usually its par designation.  Sure, you *could* compare holes to one another, but then you would end up asking whether 16 at CPC is harder than 9 at RCD, and I would surely say 9 at RCD, if all you cared about is my average score on those holes. 

Carl

Absolutely.  The difficulty of a hole doesn't change because of the par designation.  Is CPC's 16th any different if it is a par 3 or 4?  I would much prefer to talk about the holes and ignore par.  Par is a concept devised for the best players (and it is out of date now for them!) as a way to easily keep score and really should have no bearing on the holes or course themselves.  Somehow, and I think it started with the USGA standardizing par lengths around 1910, the idea of par displaced the much more reasonable (for handicap golfers) bogey system.  Par then started its gradual ascent into some sort of psycho mind game for players who were never, ever, meant to meet the standard of par.  The entire deal of par is really weird and one that has always perplexed me.

Ciao 

Sean

Trying to understand your perspective here.   I think that the term "hard" HAS to be relative to par, no?  You can sell me on why par doesn't matter in terms of overall score but when we are talking about hard, it pretty much has to be relative to par no?

Help explain what you mean, please. Thanks.

[Cliff Hamm]

The third at Shennecossett in Connecticut.  A 190 yard par 3, volcano hole, designed by Donald Ross.  Not the best picture but gives you a feel.   It is taken from the right.  Actual tee shirt is direct to the alley to the  green.  If you miss the green left or right very difficult chip/pitch.  Just one tough hole:

[Kyle Henderson]

There is that 18th at Wildhorse in Davis. The hazard takes driver out of your hands and then you have the all carry to the green. What kind of architect builds that stuff?

Well played!

[David_Madison]

Ocean Course #17 with a 3-club wind quartering at you from left to right. For a seemingly simple, short, open par-4, Ocean Course #3 downwind to a volcano green is the quickest 5 or 6 you'll ever see.

[Carl Nichols]

Ace

This is a perfect case for my earlier point.  Sandwich's 4th is a tough 4, but an easy 5 if one plays it like a par 5.  Virtually all the trouble of the hole is tied into trying to make a 4 by hitting the green in regulation.  Therefore, I don't view the hole as anything like one of the hardest.  Its just another case of folks getting hoodwinked by the concept of par.

Sean:
Do you really think the concept of par is irrelevant here?  If I think of 16 at CPC as a par 4, it's probably not a hard hole -- but it's certainly seems to be a hard par 3.  Or if I think of the 9th hole at RCD as a par 5, then it's not really a hard hole, but it sure seems to be a hard par 4.  IMHO, you think of a hole as hard relative to something, and that something is usually its par designation.  Sure, you *could* compare holes to one another, but then you would end up asking whether 16 at CPC is harder than 9 at RCD, and I would surely say 9 at RCD, if all you cared about is my average score on those holes. 

Carl

Absolutely.  The difficulty of a hole doesn't change because of the par designation.  Is CPC's 16th any different if it is a par 3 or 4?  I would much prefer to talk about the holes and ignore par.  Par is a concept devised for the best players (and it is out of date now for them!) as a way to easily keep score and really should have no bearing on the holes or course themselves.  Somehow, and I think it started with the USGA standardizing par lengths around 1910, the idea of par displaced the much more reasonable (for handicap golfers) bogey system.  Par then started its gradual ascent into some sort of psycho mind game for players who were never, ever, meant to meet the standard of par.  The entire deal of par is really weird and one that has always perplexed me.

Ciao 

So in your mind, the hardest hole is nothing more than the hole that it takes the most strokes to complete .... which on almost every course will be a par 5 (even one that's easy, when measured relative to par)? 

[Jeff Tang]

It would have to be Carnoustie's 18th for me.  Tough enough hole on its own but then you throw in the pressure of not wanting to make a Van de Velde and it makes it even tougher.  (Full disclosure, I made a Van de Velde.)

Honorable Mentions -

-Pebble Beach #8, very tiny green to hit from that shot over the chasm

-TOC #17 - I was amazed looking at the green for my second just how close that road looks to the green.  I was concerned with flying the green, hitting the road and going OB.  It caused me to bail left which of course brings the road hole bunker into play.  I made five but I wasn't in the bunker, I was left of it.

-Sand Hills #13, just nowhere to miss (didn't play it from back there but #2 at SH from the way back tee would be a brute)

- Ballyneal #6 with the "tee" all the way back, just a long tough driving hole with a really difficult green for a hole that length.

[Tony Weiler]

#12 at Mahogany Run on St Thomas USVI. Only about 370 but no place to hit it... you throw a long iron up on the hillside hope it does not hang up in the rough and then stops before running across the fairway into the abyss... If you pull that off you have a 130-150  yards to a tiny green with an ocean inlet just off the left edge and the same hillside to the right from which you could either get a bounce across the green or hung up with an impossible pitch. Oh yeah conditioning (or lack thereof) did not make it far more difficult.

Greg, is Mahogany run where they have the "Devil's Triangle?"  Fun course, buy way too many years ago.  Almost made ahole in one there, off a side hill. 

[Philippe Binette]

17th at my home course, 420 into the prevailing wind, OB right, narrow gap between the tree to a subtely steep green... took me 16 years and about 300 rounds before making my first birdie there.

as for I've played once or twice, well everything was all right at the Alps at National Golf Links until I discovered the cross bunker 20 yards short of the green.

[Chris DeNigris]

Just planning our spring desert trip so I've got Phoenix on my mind....the par 5 8th at Wekopa Cholla will eat your lunch more often than not. Pretty scenic to boot.

[Alex Miller]

No. 4 at Spyglass, par 4 all sand and iceplant down the left side from tee to a super narrow green.
No. 18 at Riviera, par 4, blind drive, trouble both sides, tough big green, kikuyu.
No. 3 at Olympic Lake, par 3, elevated tee, long iron, wood to a small green
No. 18 at Industry Hills Ike, par 5 668 yds, sand everywhere, water left, really difficult green.

I had a friend reach the green in 2! I was playing with him.

I nominate 18 at Trump LA. 500 yard par 4 into the wind with bunkers and the Pacific left and trouble right.

[Roger Wolfe]

#3 at Carolina Golf Club in Charlotte.  230 yard par 3.  Wind, bunkers, false front.  Pain, Balboa... pain.
#18 at Royal New Kent from the "Invicta" tees.  Two... long carries.  One to the fairway, the other to the peninsula green.
#9 at Diamond Creek.  Still have yet to finish that hole.  Cannot reach the fairway.

[Bill_McBride]

#4 is a really tough hole at Royal St Georges.  The tee shot must take on the 60' tall bunker carved out of one of the tallest dunes on the property.  The green is 450 yards away, so if you play safely, it's a tough par 5.  Once you get to the elevated green, it's a slippery roller coaster.  Might be the hardest par 4 I've ever played.

But a lot of fun!

Ace

This is a perfect case for my earlier point.  Sandwich's 4th is a tough 4, but an easy 5 if one plays it like a par 5.  Virtually all the trouble of the hole is tied into trying to make a 4 by hitting the green in regulation.  Therefore, I don't view the hole as anything like one of the hardest.  Its just another case of folks getting hoodwinked by the concept of par.

Sorry, not buying that.  It's incredibly difficult (in my experience) to make a 4 there.  4 is the goal - the par - so that has to be how the hole is graded.

[Matt Harrison]

For those mentioning holes at the Ocean Course at Kiawah, could we please get Mark Calcevecchia to confirm?

[Sean_A]

Ace

This is a perfect case for my earlier point.  Sandwich's 4th is a tough 4, but an easy 5 if one plays it like a par 5.  Virtually all the trouble of the hole is tied into trying to make a 4 by hitting the green in regulation.  Therefore, I don't view the hole as anything like one of the hardest.  Its just another case of folks getting hoodwinked by the concept of par.

Sean:
Do you really think the concept of par is irrelevant here?  If I think of 16 at CPC as a par 4, it's probably not a hard hole -- but it's certainly seems to be a hard par 3.  Or if I think of the 9th hole at RCD as a par 5, then it's not really a hard hole, but it sure seems to be a hard par 4.  IMHO, you think of a hole as hard relative to something, and that something is usually its par designation.  Sure, you *could* compare holes to one another, but then you would end up asking whether 16 at CPC is harder than 9 at RCD, and I would surely say 9 at RCD, if all you cared about is my average score on those holes.  

Carl

Absolutely.  The difficulty of a hole doesn't change because of the par designation.  Is CPC's 16th any different if it is a par 3 or 4?  I would much prefer to talk about the holes and ignore par.  Par is a concept devised for the best players (and it is out of date now for them!) as a way to easily keep score and really should have no bearing on the holes or course themselves.  Somehow, and I think it started with the USGA standardizing par lengths around 1910, the idea of par displaced the much more reasonable (for handicap golfers) bogey system.  Par then started its gradual ascent into some sort of psycho mind game for players who were never, ever, meant to meet the standard of par.  The entire deal of par is really weird and one that has always perplexed me.

Ciao  

So in your mind, the hardest hole is nothing more than the hole that it takes the most strokes to complete .... which on almost every course will be a par 5 (even one that's easy, when measured relative to par)?  

Carl

That stands to reason in most cases.  The holes which take the most strokes to complete are the hardest holes - no?  I don't see how earning a an easy bogey on a par 3 makes it a harder hole than a welcome 6 on another hole.  To my way of thinking, if I am satisfied walking off a green with a 6, its a hard hole.  This shows us how the concept of par warps our thinking into some meaningless concept of relativistic difficulty.  So really, the only way to compare difficulty if par is mentioned is to compare like with like.  That said, there is also something extra about the holes where it is very possible to rack up huge numbers.  That is why I cited the hole I did.  I would imagine the same is true about the 17th at Sawgrass unless there is some sort of cheesy drop zone.  

Ace

Sorry, par should not be your goal for every hole and certainly not for Sandwich's 4th - unless you are planning for an up n' down 4.  You are not good enough to aspire to hitting the green for a regulation par.  According to the USGA, par is determined with the inclusion of two putts per green.  Are you good enough to expect to hit the ball approximately 36 times to be using the putter the rest of the day?  This is why I think for handicap play we should be using the old bogey system.  It is far more realistic to the capabilities of the vast majority of golfers who have no hope of aspiring to par figures.  

Ciao

[Doug Siebert]

Everyone here is lying, no way the hardest hole you've EVER played is on a course everyone has heard of.

The hardest holes are found on the Painswicks of the world, i.e. the type of courses that no one who lives further than 100 miles away ever hears of, unless they become world famous amongst 1500 or so people worldwide

I could name a couple holes on courses none of you have ever heard of that are harder than any hole anyone has named here....or at least any hole anyone has named that I've played or have seen on TV and am willing to render the kind of sight-unseen judgement that drives Patrick Mucci to post in green

One's a lengthy par 5 of I think 570 yards with a double dogleg where the fairway slopes in the opposite direction of both doglegs.  It requires a precise drive working the ball perfectly to stay in the fairway and have a shot where playing one's third from less than 200 yards is a reasonable goal.  Then you just have to do it again, this time working the ball the other way from a lie completely ill suited to the task, leaving a third from a steeply downhill lie unless you thread the needle inside the last 80 or 90 yards to the green.  If you are insane and want to hit a 250-300 yard shot at the green from a crazy lie, there are trees and water on both sides of the last 100 yards through the green.  No real gimmicks, it just requires such perfection that even scratch players feel amazingly fortunate to come away with par.  The tour could play there and unless conditions were absolutely perfect for scoring I'd bet heavily on the average exceeding 5 shots on that hole.  But don't worry, the next hole is a 320 yard par 4 with little trouble which helps take the sting out of a bogey 6!

The other is a 180 yard par 3 with a small green on top of a cone shaped hill where the ball rolls about 60 yards away (and 50 feet down) the closely cropped hill in any direction if you miss the green.  Usually backs up 3 groups on the tee while you watch the groups ahead pitch it up and have it roll back down, repeatedly.  Total gimmick hole, but I can't think of a hole I've ever seen that had a worse scoring average for average golfers where no one ever took a penalty stroke!

[Patrick_Mucci]

All good selections.

# 5 at Pine Valley is intimidating and difficult.

# 17 at Sand Hills from the abandoned back, upper tee would have to be included.

Could it be said that the hole was so hard it was borderlline unplayable ?

[Kevin Pallier]

P3 = 16th CPC
P4 = 17th TOC
P5 = 18th Wollongong GC 

[Bill_McBride]

Ace

This is a perfect case for my earlier point.  Sandwich's 4th is a tough 4, but an easy 5 if one plays it like a par 5.  Virtually all the trouble of the hole is tied into trying to make a 4 by hitting the green in regulation.  Therefore, I don't view the hole as anything like one of the hardest.  Its just another case of folks getting hoodwinked by the concept of par.

Sean:
Do you really think the concept of par is irrelevant here?  If I think of 16 at CPC as a par 4, it's probably not a hard hole -- but it's certainly seems to be a hard par 3.  Or if I think of the 9th hole at RCD as a par 5, then it's not really a hard hole, but it sure seems to be a hard par 4.  IMHO, you think of a hole as hard relative to something, and that something is usually its par designation.  Sure, you *could* compare holes to one another, but then you would end up asking whether 16 at CPC is harder than 9 at RCD, and I would surely say 9 at RCD, if all you cared about is my average score on those holes.  

Carl

Absolutely.  The difficulty of a hole doesn't change because of the par designation.  Is CPC's 16th any different if it is a par 3 or 4?  I would much prefer to talk about the holes and ignore par.  Par is a concept devised for the best players (and it is out of date now for them!) as a way to easily keep score and really should have no bearing on the holes or course themselves.  Somehow, and I think it started with the USGA standardizing par lengths around 1910, the idea of par displaced the much more reasonable (for handicap golfers) bogey system.  Par then started its gradual ascent into some sort of psycho mind game for players who were never, ever, meant to meet the standard of par.  The entire deal of par is really weird and one that has always perplexed me.

Ciao  

So in your mind, the hardest hole is nothing more than the hole that it takes the most strokes to complete .... which on almost every course will be a par 5 (even one that's easy, when measured relative to par)?  

Carl

That stands to reason in most cases.  The holes which take the most strokes to complete are the hardest holes - no?  I don't see how earning a an easy bogey on a par 3 makes it a harder hole than a welcome 6 on another hole.  To my way of thinking, if I am satisfied walking off a green with a 6, its a hard hole.  This shows us how the concept of par warps our thinking into some meaningless concept of relativistic difficulty.  So really, the only way to compare difficulty if par is mentioned is to compare like with like.  That said, there is also something extra about the holes where it is very possible to rack up huge numbers.  That is why I cited the hole I did.  I would imagine the same is true about the 17th at Sawgrass unless there is some sort of cheesy drop zone.  

Ace

Sorry, par should not be your goal for every hole and certainly not for Sandwich's 4th - unless you are planning for an up n' down 4.  You are not good enough to aspire to hitting the green for a regulation par.  According to the USGA, par is determined with the inclusion of two putts per green.  Are you good enough to expect to hit the ball approximately 36 times to be using the putter the rest of the day?  This is why I think for handicap play we should be using the old bogey system.  It is far more realistic to the capabilities of the vast majority of golfers who have no hope of aspiring to par figures.  

Ciao

Sean, we are full agreement.  I play #4 at Sandwich as a par 5, it still requires thoughtful play to make a 5.

But the subject of this thread is "Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played."  In that context, par must be considered, otherwise there's no benchmark for degree of difficulty to attain a goal.  In this case if that goal isn't par, how can you establish which hole is "hardest?"