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Jeff_Brauer

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Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« on: December 15, 2009, 08:17:11 AM »
Looking through the Colt Book "Creating Classics" last night, I saw a pic of Pine Valley No. 5 and recall standing on that tee saying it was the hardest hole I had ever seen.  The green looked unnattainable, and my tee shot did nothing to change my opinion.  I remembered the pit in my stomach the minute I saw the photo (although it looked a lot cleaner and less nasty than the day I played many years ago)

So, what one hole gave you that feeling of being the toughest you had ever played?  Doesn't have to be famous, doesn't have to be tough for anyone but you,but feel free to add a brief explanation of why!

For those who just can't make up their mind, I would accept toughest Par 3, Par 4 and Par 5. If you want, throw in toughest international hole, etc.  But, the fewer you put in, the better and the more you put in, well, the more it says about your golf game!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Foley

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 09:36:03 AM »
#2 at The Ocean Course. Standing on the tee I knew where I needed to hit the drive, but there was trouble left & right. Then the confusion came I knew there was a cross area I had to fly, but still trouble left & right. Then after I hit a lay up, the ridge in front of the green along w/ the surrounding tree's camofloged the gree tremendously. So there I am 140 yards from the green and no idea where to hit it. Once I figured it out, then executing the shot to a small raised table green, it was a brutally difficult approach.

Oh yeah - the wind was a steady 20-25 MPH.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Lester George

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 09:47:01 AM »
Jeff,

Number 5 at Pine Valley is on my list as well as number 7.  Number 7 just gets in my brain from the start and never lets up.  Not sure I have ever made less than 8 on that hole!

Lester

JMEvensky

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 09:48:04 AM »
10 at WFW.I'd read Hogan's comment about hitting a 6-iron through a bathroom window and figured if he thought it was a tough shot,my chances weren't real good.

17 at Olympic Lake.I have issues with hitting long irons/fairway woods while standing on my head.Hardest layup shot I've ever had,especially considering how precise a third shot has to be.

17 at TPC Sawgrass.In addition to the usual perils,for some reason,there were ~ 50 people wandering around the tee box the first time I played it.When I hit the green,they actually applauded.It was surreal.Never did find out who they were nor why they were there.

1 at Ballybunion.Tom Watson was standing there,waiting to tee off.Then, the caddie decided to point out the cemetery.Not a good vibe.

10 at Memphis CC.A 3-par about 210 yards with a ~ 2 foot opening at the front.I think I'm cumulatively several hundred over par on that hole.It's the easiest par 4 in town.

The other 17 holes at WFW.


Brian Phillips

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2009, 09:56:47 AM »
Hole 5 at Pine Valley is one of the toughest but the last three holes at Carnoustie are the ones that stick in my mind the most.

The course was playing about 3-4 club wind and had beaten the hell out of us already.  I hit driver on 16 a par 3 as you guys know and did not even reach the green.  The rest was just a blur of trying to get home.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Matt OBrien

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2009, 09:58:01 AM »
17 and sand hills!!! LOL  I did not hit the green one time in the 6 rounds there.

Matt_Ward

Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2009, 10:00:34 AM »
Jeff:

In my neck of the woods -- the 15th at BB is right there with any two-shot par-4. The drive deceives people because the landing area is quite wide. I am not a fan of what the USGA / locals did with pushing the rough out from the left to make the turn point more pronounced.

Even when you hit the fairway -- the approach to the Mt Olympus green is not for the feint of heart. You just have to hit sufficient club --if you're out beyond 200 yards the better play is to lay-up before the cut-off begins where the green climbs. Even at less than 200 yards the resulting elevated green will require no less than 2-4 clubs more depending upon your strength and ability to get an iron / hybrid / metal club in the air.

The green is just more of the same -- anything that is not hit to the proper landing area on the green can result in big time trouble -- going too far left or right is bad -- going longis deadsville. Even going short is no bargain as sand and a steep tier face looks the player in the eye.

BB's 15th sported a 4.6 stroke average in the '02 US Open and was slightly below that for the '09 event. For a hole that doesn't have a single drop of H20 on it -- and from the sheer range of par-4 holes I've played -- the 15th at BB would make my short list without a doubt.

*****

On the par-3 front -- for a hole that has great flexibility in being quite playable for the mid-to-high handicappers -- I'd pick the long par-3 8th at Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV. The hole can play to a max of 240+ yards. You hit from an elevated tee which only provides a piece of the target that you are attempting to hit below.

Complicating matters is you generally play the hole into the prevailing SW which can mean headwinds that can hit 25-40 mph. The green is also protected by H20 to the far left of the green -- which I might add is quite large yet it appears to be much smaller. You also have a small stream that feeds itself around the target.

The only people -- and I stress the ONLY -- people who play from the tips are extremely low handicap types. For all others -- the hole is like the Jerry Lewis telethon -- a DONATION !!!

If mid-to-high handicaps play from the 150-yard markers the very nature of the hole changes into a much more playable situation -- you still have the visual terror but it's easier to adjust with much shorter yardage and hitting less club.


For the above two holes -- I'll place them against any others -- they are quite demanding and like Darth Vader unless you are extremely proficient with your light sabre you will be easily cut down. ;D

JR Potts

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2009, 10:01:25 AM »
#10 at Butler is the hardest Par 4 I've ever played.

#2 at Isleworth is the hardest Par 3 I've ever played.

Shane Wright

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2009, 10:02:19 AM »
Jeff - great topic.

Par 3 - #2 - Praire Dunes - Played from tips - 161 Yards.  You absolutely cannot be above the hole or long.  There is really no bailout and short leaves a really tough recovery.  The setting of the tee box and the mound behind the green make it difficult to feel the wind which leaves a very difficult club selection.  At 161, most lower handicappers are going to be between clubs making this one of the ultimate "feel" shots.  Even with no water and no OB, this is still one of the scariest par 3 tee shots I have ever hit.  And anyone who has been to Prairie Dunes knows that the greens are "diabolical" including this green.

Par 4 - #15 - Bethpage Black - Played from tips - 478.  Very tough fairway to hit, even with the wide open feel.  Rough is a one stroke penalty.  Approach shot is uphill with at least a long iron in hand to a two tiered green.  Bunkering at 30-50 yards short of the green makes it partially blind and difficult to judge yardage.  The hole is difficult enough that just getting a ball up and around the green is the goal for most.

Par 5 - I think #5 at Muirfiield  - it is the first one that comes to mind.  Very tough drive, impossible rough, back to front green, deep bunkers,   The angle of the tee box to the fairway and rough makes the drive extremely tough.  With many golfers wanting to work the ball from right to left, you are carrying it out over the rough to shape the shot.  This brings all the trouble into play

International - TIE -


Carnoustie #18 - we didn't play this from the tips and I still thought it was the hardest I had ever seen at the time.  The only thing that made it even possible was the relatively flatness of the green.  Trouble is absolutely everywhere and anything not in the fairway off the tee makes the 2nd shot very difficult to clear the burn short of the green.

Royal County Down #9 - Played from tips - 480 Yards Par 4 - - The day we played it, easily the most diffiulct hole I HAVE EVER PLAYED.  Wind was towards the ocean (right to left and a little into us at 20mph).  Two of us are 300+ drivers and had NO CHANCE at getting it to the fairway.  Blind tee shot over the huge hill with no idea where it is going to land. In the event you are able to reach the fairway, the 2nd shot is still very diffcult to a well bunkered green.   The green is large and somewhat crowned if memory serves me correctly.  The beauty of the tee ball and 2nd shot are overwhelming the first time the hole is played.  In our case, our drives were to the top of the hill and in the fescue making the 2nd shot almost impossible as we were completely exposed to the wind with very difficult lies.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2009, 10:16:03 AM »
I'll second #9 at RCD.

I'd also nominate #11 at Congressional, when it's played as a par-4 (as they do during Tiger's tournament):  off the tee it's woods left, bunkers and (parallel) stream/hazard right, then a very long second shot to a green that's protected on the left by bunkers and that runs into the hazard on the right.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 10:23:32 AM »
I'd like to nominate about half the holes at Idaho Club!!!  ;D

Scott Warren

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2009, 10:23:44 AM »
8th at The Addington deserves a vote - and it has no sand or water, either!

4th at Rye is up there.

4th at Royal St George's - I can't believe we are meant to make 4 on that hole!!

15th at NSWGC, even if some of those girlie men who played it in Nov think it's 'too hard' ;)

10th at St Enodoc, also wins the "narrowest" and "stupidest" awards!

Jud_T

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2009, 10:33:33 AM »
I can't believe noone's mentioned 17 at TOC yet....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sean Leary

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2009, 10:39:35 AM »
This many replies and not one for the Road Hole? 16 at CPC?

For a par 5 what about 4 at Merion since the fairway moves AFTER the ball is in the air on your second shot..;)

Gene Greco

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2009, 10:43:42 AM »
     I don't believe any hole at Pine Valley is the "hardest I've ever played."

The course is fairly wide off the tee, bring a good sand game and a decent putter and the course is very managable. Wind is never a huge factor there.

I made 4,3,4 on #5 the three rounds I played there and birdied what I believe was the second toughest hole on the course #13 the first time i played it. I was a 7 hncp at the time.

No, for me the hardest hole(s) would be subjected to the effects of wind.

For example, #2 at Sand Hills played into an easterly wind from the double diamond tee behind the 1st green is brutal.

Or #13 also at Sand Hills is a heroic par 3 like #5 PV but when played at 221 yds with the ubiquitous swirling wind it is usually a nightmare.
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Dave McCollum

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2009, 10:53:13 AM »
Not the hardest I ever played, but I’ll never forget my first view of 14 on the TOC.  We played the New on a Sunday and walked TOC after to prepare for a Monday round.  The hole was playing directly into a 25—30 mph breeze.  After scouting the hole, we ended up sitting on a dune for about twenty minutes wondering “how the hell do you play this hole?”  There seemed no viable solutions.  (I wasn’t clever enough to think about playing up the 5th fairway.)  I can’t remember being so utterly perplexed by any hole on any course.

The next day the wind shifted 180 degrees and 14 played directly down wind.  I was on the back of the green in 2 shots for an easy birdie, which, of course, I 3-putted for par.  In fact, my feeble memory about difficult holes always seems to involve strong winds.

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2009, 10:56:12 AM »
The Ranch #7
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Shane Wright

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2009, 10:59:08 AM »
JUD - you are right - #17 at TOC should be in there. 

Please forgive me for I have sinned.

Dan Boerger

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2009, 11:05:56 AM »
Here are some holes that really make me twitch and why ...

#5 Merion - When I'm playing even moderately well, I generally work the ball right to left. To have any chance at par, I'll need a very strong drive at #5, which will force me to play to the line of bunkers along the right side, and hopefully work the ball in properly. If I strike it down the center, that underfed creek tries to eat everything. Even with a good drive, I'm left with pretty much the same feeling on my approach, particularly if the pin is left.

#17 Merion - The tee shot simply gets in my head. I would rather hit 5 approach shots on 16 to every 1 tee shot on 17.

#18 Pine Valley - Well guarded and raised green has caused me more than once to actually lay up. It's a cowardly move that I'm not proud of.

#10 Aronimink - Can you tell I have a thing for water left? This is always a good hole to declare a a press if you're my opponent.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2009, 11:21:31 AM »
Its funny, but I never thought of 16CPC as being as hard as PV 5.  I know its a monster carry but somehow that doesn't scare me as much as the trees left, fall off right that the long par 3 at PV features.  You can't start left and you can't miss right and the penalty is severe, (albeit not as severe as the ocean) but with no real bail out options.


Ditto with TOC 17, at least you can bail on the tee shot and lay up short with the second, although playing both shots is scary if trying to do it the way Old Tom intended.  The second shot is probably scarier than the tee shot.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom Birkert

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2009, 11:21:59 AM »
1st at Oakmont would enter the conversation. Indeed pretty much the entire course would!

Sean_A

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2009, 11:23:10 AM »
This many replies and not one for the Road Hole? 16 at CPC?

For a par 5 what about 4 at Merion since the fairway moves AFTER the ball is in the air on your second shot..;)

I knew it wasn't just me this happened to!

Off the top of my head I can't think of the hardest hole I have ever played, but it must involve oob, water and or terrible rough, right, left and long.  So many of the holes mentioned are in context of par (and most are straight forward bogeys) rather than difficulty.  Forget par, which holes can one rack up a huge number on if one isn't very careful and dead straight?  They must be out there or do folks complain about narrowness and lack of options without due cause?

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 11:24:54 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2009, 11:29:26 AM »
1st at Oakmont would enter the conversation. Indeed pretty much the entire course would!

I considered Oakmont greens as a contribution.  I think if I could have three putted any of the first five, they wouldn't have cowed me as much as they did..... :(
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jud_T

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2009, 11:32:06 AM »
How about the hardest downhill 325 yard par 4 on the planet? #14 at Bandon Trails.....  ::)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Kalen Braley

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Re: Hardest Hole You Have Ever Played?
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2009, 11:34:17 AM »
Or the hardest and shortest par 5 on the planet....Kingsley #9?   ;D