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Scott Warren

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Rye member suing club over shower fall
« on: December 14, 2009, 11:33:57 AM »
Golfer suing exclusive club for £50,000 after falling over in 'slippery shower'

A golfer is suing his prestigious club for £50,000, claiming he fell on a shower floor that was 'too slippery'.

Retired Lloyds underwriter Anthony Avery, 72, has not been able to play golf since his fall - which necessitated a £5,000 operation and ongoing physiotherapy - and said being forced to stay off the course has ruined his life.

He claims Rye Golf Club, in East Sussex, was negligent and breached its duty of care by failing to ensure that sufficient 'anti-slip measures' were taken.

Mr Avery did not report the accident until two weeks after it occurred and did not seek immediate medical treatment. Now the grandfather is suing the club for between £15,000 and £50,000 in damages for personal injury and losses.

He said: 'I've played golf all my life but I haven't played golf since the accident. Well I tell a lie, I tried but it hurt me. I feel terrible that it's stopped me from playing golf. I'm retired and it's been my main hobby quite frankly. It's just extremely sad.

'We've got a property in Tampa Bay in America and we like to go out there and play golf but of course that's been ruined as well.

'It's spoiled my life, quite frankly.'

He criticised Rye Golf Club, one of the most exclusive in Britain, for his treatment after the incident.

'The club say that I should have been a bit more careful when I stepped in the shower. They will say I'm a doddery old fool but that's not the case. I don't think it was my fault.
I've not dared to think about how much compensation I could get.'

He says Rye Golf Club secretary John Smith told him before his fall that anti-slip tape would be put in the shower following previous accidents.

But the club, which denies liability, says Mr Smith agreed to consider possible measures to tackle slipperiness only after Mr Avery's fall. The secretary said he believed such cautionary measures were 'excessive'.

The club has counted at least three Prime Ministers among its former members: David Lloyd George, A.J Balfour and Winston Churchill. The club was also the home of famed writer Bernard Darwin during the latter years of his life and is the venue for the historic President's Putter competition, contested each January between members of the Oxford and Cambridge golf societies.

Club solicitor Simon King said about 12,000 showers a year were taken in the men's changing rooms and occasional slips were unavoidable.

He said: 'When people use showers, they generally create wet surfaces which may also be soapy and/or to some extent unavoidably slippery.

'And this may have occurred either because of the claimant's own usage of the cubicle or because of the state in which it may have been left by a previous user.

'It is disputed that the shower cubicle was itself inherently slippery, this was not so.

'The defendant accepts that it is possible it may have been left by a previous user in a state such that soap, shampoo, was present within the cubicle.'

The compensation claim was blasted by John Holden, president of the Institution of Occupational Safety and Health.

He said: 'We need to move away from a "where there's blame, there's a claim" culture to one where every individual is willing to accept some responsibility for their own safety culture and to manage the risks they face.

'We need to move towards a more risk intelligent society where people are aware of and can deal with the minor hazards all around us.'

At Lewes County Court, Judge Helen Starke adjourned the case until next summer for a full hearing.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2009, 11:54:43 AM »
'We need to move away from a "where there's blame, there's a claim" culture to one where every individual is willing to accept some responsibility for their own safety culture and to manage the risks they face.

'We need to move towards a more risk intelligent society where people are aware of and can deal with the minor hazards all around us.'

If we were really serious about healthcare reform in the U.S., any legislation would include the above as a cornerstone principle.  Yes, showers are slippery and good coffee is very hot; we should all be cognizant of the risks we take just by getting out of bed and assume responsibility.  Is there anyone I can blame and sue for by weak, flabby core and solid drives that don't carry 200 yards?

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2009, 11:55:37 AM »
Golfer suing exclusive club for £50,000 after falling over in 'slippery shower'

A golfer is suing his prestigious club for £50,000, claiming he fell on a shower floor that was 'too slippery'.

Retired Lloyds underwriter Anthony Avery, 72, has not been able to play golf since his fall - which necessitated a £5,000 operation and ongoing physiotherapy - and said being forced to stay off the course has ruined his life.

He claims Rye Golf Club, in East Sussex, was negligent and breached its duty of care by failing to ensure that sufficient 'anti-slip measures' were taken.

Mr Avery did not report the accident until two weeks after it occurred and did not seek immediate medical treatment. Now the grandfather is suing the club for between £15,000 and £50,000 in damages for personal injury and losses.

He said: 'I've played golf all my life but I haven't played golf since the accident. Well I tell a lie, I tried but it hurt me.

Club solicitor Simon King said about 12,000 showers a year were taken in the men's changing rooms and occasional slips were unavoidable.

Hes admittted he tells lies, who knows what is fact fiction!!!!! :-X........ and 12,000 showers per year sounds yet more fiction!
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Andrew Mitchell

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Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2009, 12:06:51 PM »
Did you write the article for the Daily Wail Scott?

The photo on the Mail website http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1235773/Golfer-suing-exclusive-Rye-Golf-Club-50-000-falling-slippery-shower.html
looks rather like the one you posted here http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42323.0/  ;)

Looks like us GCAers had a lucky escape/missed a financial opportunity when we played Rye pre Buda.  I waited until I got back to my B&B before I took a shower.
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Scott Warren

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Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2009, 12:19:40 PM »
Indeed, Andrew it is one and the same. I didn't write the whole lot, but helped out and when we were struggling for a good pic of the club I finally had cause to be thankful for my blog.

Of course that meant admitting to my boss that I am a nerd with a golf blog, but my cover was going to get blown sooner or later!

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2009, 12:30:27 PM »
I am not familiar with the negligence laws of the UK; however, I have represented an injured claimant in a hotel shower stall fall. Here is an inexpensive ($12.00 on Amazon.com) grab bar device that my expert presented as a possible preventitive measure:



The Hotel settled the case for a substantial sum after reviewing my expert's report.

For those who continue to mention the McDonald's "scalding coffee" case, I suggest that you read the following:

TRUTH ABOUT MCDONALD'S CASE
There is a lot of hype about the McDonalds' scalding coffee case. No one is in favor of frivolous cases or outlandish results; however, it is important to understand some points that were not reported in most of the stories about the case. McDonalds coffee was not only hot, it was scalding - capable of almost instantaneous destruction of skin, flesh and muscle. Here's the whole story.

Stella Liebeck of Albuquerque, New Mexico, was in the passenger seat of her grandson's car when she was severely burned by McDonalds' coffee in February 1992. Liebeck, 79 at the time, ordered coffee that was served in a styrofoam cup at the drive through window of a local McDonalds.

After receiving the order, the grandson pulled his car forward and stopped momentarily so that Liebeck could add cream and sugar to her coffee. (Critics of civil justice, who have pounced on this case, often charge that Liebeck was driving the car or that the vehicle was in motion when she spilled the coffee; neither is true.) Liebeck placed the cup between her knees and attempted to remove the plastic lid from the cup. As she removed the lid, the entire contents of the cup spilled into her lap.

The sweatpants Liebeck was wearing absorbed the coffee and held it next to her skin. A vascular surgeon determined that Liebeck suffered full thickness burns (or third-degree burns) over 6 percent of her body, including her inner thighs, perineum, buttocks, and genital and groin areas. She was hospitalized for eight days, during which time she underwent skin grafting. Liebeck, who also underwent debridement treatments, sought to settle her claim for $20,000, but McDonalds refused.

During discovery, McDonalds produced documents showing more than 700 claims by people burned by its coffee between 1982 and 1992. Some claims involved third-degree burns substantially similar to Liebecks. This history documented McDonalds' knowledge about the extent and nature of this hazard.

McDonalds also said during discovery that, based on a consultants advice, it held its coffee at between 180 and 190 degrees fahrenheit to maintain optimum taste. He admitted that he had not evaluated the safety ramifications at this temperature. Other establishments sell coffee at substantially lower temperatures, and coffee served at home is generally 135 to 140 degrees.

Further, McDonalds' quality assurance manager testified that the company actively enforces a requirement that coffee be held in the pot at 185 degrees, plus or minus five degrees. He also testified that a burn hazard exists with any food substance served at 140 degrees or above, and that McDonalds coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat. The quality assurance manager admitted that burns would occur, but testified that McDonalds had no intention of reducing the "holding temperature" of its coffee.

Plaintiffs' expert, a scholar in thermodynamics applied to human skin burns, testified that liquids, at 180 degrees, will cause a full thickness burn to human skin in two to seven seconds. Other testimony showed that as the temperature decreased toward 155 degrees, the extent of the burn relative to the temperature decreases exponentially. Thus, if Liebeck's spill had involved coffee at 155 degrees, the liquid would have cooled and given her time to avoid a serious burn.

McDonalds asserted that customers buy coffee on their way to work or home, intending to consume it there. However, the company's own research showed that customers intend to consume the coffee immediately while driving.

McDonalds also argued that consumers know coffee is hot and that its customers want it that way. The company admitted its customers were unaware that they could suffer third degree burns from the coffee and that a statement on the side of the cup was not a "warning" but a "reminder" since the location of the writing would not warn customers of the hazard.

The jury awarded Liebeck $200,000 in compensatory damages. This amount was reduced to $160,000 because the jury found Liebeck 20 percent at fault in the spill. The jury also awarded Liebeck $2.7 million in punitive damages, which equals about two days of McDonalds' coffee sales.

Post-verdict investigation found that the temperature of coffee at the local Albuquerque McDonalds had dropped to 158 degrees Fahrenheit.

The trial court subsequently reduced the punitive award to $480,000 - or three times compensatory damages - even though the judge called McDonalds' conduct reckless, callous and willful.

After an appeal, the parties reached a confidential settlement.

excerpted from ATLA fact sheet. ©1995, 1996 by Consumer Attorneys of California
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Lou_Duran

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Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2009, 01:11:38 PM »
Steve,

As it is said, there are always at least two sides to every story.

Let me pose a hypothetical question using your shower case as an example.  Let's say the hotel you sued had such a handle and your client was a rather heavy person with balance issues.  She sees the handle, assumes that it is totally safe so she lets her guard (for safety) down, proceeds to get into the shower by pulling hard on the handle, it comes off the tile, and she slips and hurts herself badly.

Do you then sue the hotel for having foreseen the dangerous condition of a slippery shower and gone cheap with a $12 unsatisfactory "fix" as a means to shift risk to the poor, unsucpecting guest whose only fault is that whe wanted to take a shower?  You could then pray all sorts of bad faith and intent and really get that settlement up, right?  I wonder, did your client have such a device on his/her shower at home?

BTW, most people who go to McDonalds for coffee know that it is very hot.  That is one of the important reasons why we get it.  We also know to blow on it, sip slowly, and savor it.  Drinking and eating in a moving vehicle are always hazardous.  And yes you are right, McDonalds does have very deep pockets.  It would be nice if that was not a key criteria by which people seek redress of their grievances, but I suspect that as much as cause, it determines whether or not to take a contigency case, right?

I understand the adversarial nature of our legal system, and the societal benefit claimed by the plaintiffs' bar that it forces proper behavior on producers, but do you not see a moral hazard here? 

mike_malone

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Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2009, 01:14:01 PM »
 Can I sue them for some of the bad lies I had in Sept.?
AKA Mayday

Joe Bausch

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Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2009, 01:26:06 PM »
Can I sue them for some of the bad lies I had in Sept.?

Yes, especially if those led to you hurting your hand!  :)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

mike_malone

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Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2009, 01:40:43 PM »
 Joe,

   The funny thing is there may be some truth to that. I got a steroid shot ten days before the trip so that I would be able to do it. I probably hurt it without feeling it.
AKA Mayday

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2009, 02:05:44 PM »
Maybe the chap concerned will reflect on the fact that by not reporting the alleged incident for 2 weeks he  "endangered" fellow members.

Strange way of conducting oneself, all very shabby.
Cave Nil Vino

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2009, 02:08:29 PM »
Can I sue them for some of the bad lies I had in Sept.?

Jeepers Mayday!  You go all the way to the s of England to tee it up and you are still thinking in terms of good and bad lies?  Tisk Tisk.

Ciao

New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jordan Wall

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Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2009, 02:16:29 PM »
Steve,

Do you then sue the hotel for having foreseen the dangerous condition of a slippery shower and gone cheap with a $12 unsatisfactory "fix" as a means to shift risk to the poor, unsucpecting guest whose only fault is that whe wanted to take a shower?  You could then pray all sorts of bad faith and intent and really get that settlement up, right?  I wonder, did your client have such a device on his/her shower at home?

BTW, most people who go to McDonalds for coffee know that it is very hot.  That is one of the important reasons why we get it.  We also know to blow on it, sip slowly, and savor it.  Drinking and eating in a moving vehicle are always hazardous.  And yes you are right, McDonalds does have very deep pockets.  It would be nice if that was not a key criteria by which people seek redress of their grievances, but I suspect that as much as cause, it determines whether or not to take a contigency case, right?

I understand the adversarial nature of our legal system, and the societal benefit claimed by the plaintiffs' bar that it forces proper behavior on producers, but do you not see a moral hazard here? 

Lou,

Without arguing for or against either side, we discussed this in my BLaw class earlier this year.

Apparently, Mcdonalds had an unlimited coffee deal.  So, you buy one cup, refills are free.  It was estimated that customers were generally in Mcdonalds for about 20 minutes.  By serving the coffee at a higher temperature, it would take longer to cool down and drink, thus limiting the number of refills the customers would actually get.  The serving temperature of the coffee was much higher than it should have been, well past what it takes to get burned badly.  It was because of this that McDobald's lost the suit.  Or so I heard.

Hope you're doing well, Lou, happy holidays!

Cheers,
Jordan

Jason McNamara

Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2009, 02:31:01 PM »
I understand the adversarial nature of our legal system, and the societal benefit claimed by the plaintiffs' bar that it forces proper behavior on producers, but do you not see a moral hazard here? 

There is in fact a simple solution to this:

Assess punitive damages if/when appropriate, but do not award them to the plaintiff (and by extension, his attorney).  For example in the coffee case, give the punitive damages to the burn ward of a non-profit hospital.

The only other tweak required is a cap to limit all such rewards (in aggregate) to 5% of any single non-profit's budget, so that you don't have people setting up sham non-profits just to grab a new money stream.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2009, 03:44:51 PM »
Jordan,

Funny coincidence, but I took a business law class during one of my earlier quarters of graduate school and I had my own McDonalds incident.    An early evening class, it was taught by a rather serious professor from the law school.  The B school was located fairly close to the student union which had a McDonalds on the premise, and I stopped for a large coffee enroute to class on the very first day.  I was there right on the bell, and had to take a seat in the front row close to the lecturn.

The desk was one of those small wood laminate and metal things with a tilted writing pad on the right, and as I placed my still full, steaming coffee without a lid on the pad and slid into the seat, the damned cup toppled over emptying its contents on my lap and crotch.  My painful reaction lifted the desk off the ground resulting in gasps and laughter from my new classmates.  The professor just shook his head and went on with the class as I excused myself to go to the restroom and bring back a bunch of paper towels to clean the floor.  Needless to say, I didn't make the impression I wanted.

Perhaps I should have sued McDonalds for the embarrassment and pain I endured, but this would never have occured to me and it was in the mid-70s, before such damage theories and the supporting legal infrastructure were well developed.  Just think, you might have studied Duran v. McDonalds if it had been 20 years later.

Jason,

Another way is to require the loser to pay for all legal and trial costs.  I know the objections: the "powerful greedy rich" would litigate the little guy into submission and rightous causes would not get the day in court.  We are told that adding a tiny bit to the cost of everything is but a small price to pay for "justice"; math and aggregation not being a consideration in this analysis.  But who writes the laws?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 03:54:42 PM by Lou_Duran »

Jud_T

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Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2009, 04:34:11 PM »
obvious solution....shower cleats!!!!  :-*
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JC Jones

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2009, 07:41:32 PM »

Jason,

Another way is to require the loser to pay for all legal and trial costs. ?

Interestingly, this is the rule in England.  I once did research on securities litigation cases in concert with an article I was writing on the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act (PSLRA), which was focused on reducing frivilous securities class action cases.  Turns out there are fewer cases in England than the US and in the original draft of the bill (1995ish) they had put the "English Rule" in there.  Unfortunately they took it out.  My article argued that this was a mistake as there hasn't been much reduction in securities cases as a result of the PSLRA.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Dave Falkner

Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2009, 10:44:06 PM »
Lou it has been shown that litigation adds approx 2% to the cost of health care in the US  so why may I ask would you propose your conerstone principle?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=az9qxQZNmf0o

and I would submit the so called "defensive medicine" is another red herring, especially when you have drs owning radiology practices they refer patients to and other similar business practices

I would love to defend this case with this clown waiting two weeks and refusing treatment  it would be a dream cross examination

Lou_Duran

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Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2009, 11:57:54 PM »
Lou it has been shown that litigation adds approx 2% to the cost of health care in the US  so why may I ask would you propose your conerstone principle?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=az9qxQZNmf0o

and I would submit the so called "defensive medicine" is another red herring, especially when you have drs owning radiology practices they refer patients to and other similar business practices

I would love to defend this case with this clown waiting two weeks and refusing treatment  it would be a dream cross examination

Dave,

It has been shown by whom?  An Econ professor who teaches at a liberal school of government?  Are you a lawyer?  If so, surely you know that you can hire "experts" to pretty much "show" whatever you pay them to.

I'll tell you what, I am going to see my internist and endrocrinologist soon and I'll ask them what they pay for malpractice insurance and to estimate how much they have their patients incur for defensive medicine to CTA.  They might very well tell me.  Neither has any desire to practice ObamaCare, and I wouldn't be surprised if the older of the two leaves his practice when the benefits part of it kicks-in after the 2012 election (you ever wonder why the taxes begin as soon as the bill gets signed but the services aren't available for three years?). 

But my comment regarding personal responsibility has much more to do than with just litigation and defensive medicine.  I am also including the things we all do that aren't good for our health and  well-being.  Where did we develop the expectation that things should go hunky-dory and when they don't, someone else must be actionably at fault.  Guess what?  Life isn't always fair and not every ball thrown at us is straight down the middle to be hit out of the ballpark.  When I step into the box I am hoping that I get something in my sweetspot, but my expectation is that the juiced ball is more likely to come at my head, maybe break over the corner, and, regardless, the umpire doesn't much like me anyways.  When I step into the shower I know it to be slippery.  When I buy a MacDonalds coffee, I want it to be scalding hot.  If I fall or burn myself, I need to get back up, heal, and be more careful next time, not call a lawyer.  And that's what I mean about personal responsibility as a cornerstone principle of healthcare reform.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2009, 12:48:43 AM »
I find it amazing this post has any legs at all. Rye is a world class club who no doubt does not find itself in litigation of this type on anything resembling a regular basis. I have showered there and the showers there are typical of one finds in an elite older UK club. If we discussed every odd once in a lifetime litigation and try to make it seem normal then the site would lose all credibility. People sue other people every day for crazy reasons and that does not make the system a problem nor relevant.

Scott Warren

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Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2009, 03:00:59 AM »
Tiger,

There are people here who are fond of and familiar with the club who would be interested to read this. What more "legs" does a thread need than interest to the membership?

This site is called Golf Club Atlas. My thread is about a golf club...

I find it odd that of all the weird and distasteful things that have been posted on here over the past month or so, you choose this thread to criticise.

Scott

Shane Gurnett

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Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2009, 03:34:04 AM »
Scott, you could have just marked it as an "OT" thread so those of us with no interest in the non architectural threads could have simply ignored it.

Mark_F

Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2009, 03:53:18 AM »
I find it odd that of all the weird and distasteful things that have been posted on here over the past month or so, you choose this thread to criticise.
Scott

Scott,

Which weird and distasteful things would that be?

By the way, did you get many calls at The Mail Online last week with that blurb in a Tiger Woods story exhorting anyone who knows any women who have slept with Tiger Woods to call you?

I was thinking of giving you a ring, but my falsetto hasn't been very good lately, and I thought you might have seen through it.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2009, 03:59:49 AM »
Scott, you could have just marked it as an "OT" thread so those of us with no interest in the non architectural threads could have simply ignored it.

It should be totally obvious from the subject line that this topic is OT; "shower fall", "member suing club", etc..

Shane Gurnett

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Rye member suing club over shower fall
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2009, 04:00:37 AM »
Yes it should be.