Please share your Pikewood National experiences and thoughts

[George Pazin]

I'm amazed that a course designed by amateurs could win GD's Best Private, and equally amazed how little discussion of the course there has been on here, at least that I've noticed.

If you've played it, walked it, toured it, whatever, please share your thoughts.

[Cory Lewis]

In my mind the place is the perfect setup for a golf club.  It has a small, functional clubhouse with a bar.  Driving range is behind the clubhouse and is very nice.  Putting green/short game area is next to/around the first tee.  As I recall there are only two sets of tees, the really long set at 7600 yards and the shorter set at 6800 yards. 

The course is walking only which is really where the experience of playing the golf course is unique.  I would describe it as half golf course, half nature walk.  It's a challenging walk as some of the green to tee walks are pretty far, but are amazingly beautiful as you walk down a wood chipped path with a stream next to you or down switchbacks with incredibly views of mountains.  On some holes on the front you need to look really hard for the wood chipped path at the back of the hole or you will have no idea where the next hole is.

The views are stunning, as you would expect from a mountain course.  The golf course is very hard, it has mostly small greens with just enough contour to drive you nuts.  The course moves up and down so much that you will feel a sense of accomplishment after walking all 18 holes as evidenced from the photo below.

I would desribe it as one of those courses that is just so much fun to play that you don't worry as much about the architecture, which is a good thing because you probably will not play well when you play here the first time.

[Matt_Ward]

Cory:

How tight do the trees push in -- from the lone photo you provided it appears that wayward driving by even the least amount leaves little room for recoverying shots. Is this so ?

[George Freeman]

Thanks for the info Cory.  Can you post any additional photos you have of the course?

When did the course open and who designed it?

Thanks!

[George Pazin]

http://www.pikewoodgolfclub.com/

[Cory Lewis]

How tight do the trees push in -- from the lone photo you provided it appears that wayward driving by even the least amount leaves little room for recoverying shots. Is this so ?

Matt,

You are correct.  It is a very tight driving course.  Most holes have trees down both sides that are pretty close to the fairway.  That is the main defense of the course, there is very little fairway bunkering off the tee as I recall.  That's probably why the rating and slope from the forward tees is 75.6/151.

[Matt_Ward]

Cory:

Thanks for the reply.

Given what you just said -- does the minimization of recovery options then take away from the overall qualities of the course -- specifically from a quality design perspective ?

I've played my share of super hard courses and sometimes they really overdose on the narrow corridors so that even the slighest pull / push is deadsville.

I wonder if having amateur architects involved may have caused this shortcoming.

your comments since you have played there are appreciated ...

[Cory Lewis]

Given what you just said -- does the minimization of recovery options then take away from the overall qualities of the course -- specifically from a quality design perspective ?

Matt,

Possibly.  I think the designers did a good job of making the greens open in front on the tightest driving holes so that follow up shots can be on or near the green.  From the second shot in, I think the course is very playable with greens that are tame compared to the challenges off the tee.  From the beginning you know this course is going to be a challenge.  There is no attempt to deceive you into believing that you are going to have an easy day playing the course.  

George,

George Pazin posted the website for the course. They have much better pictures than I do.

[Matt_Ward]

Cory:

I'd have to see more pics -- but when a course has amateur architects it's e-z for them to overdose on the demand meter since they may not understand why width -- given its imposing length -- is needed.

i am well acquainted with the hills of WV and Morgantown.

Demanding golf is fair game -- but if recovery shots are not a part of that equation then something is indeed out of whack.

i look forward playing there in 2010.

[JC Jones]

It does have a waterfall.

[Sean_A]

Well, if this photo is anything to go by, it doesn't impress me.  I see this so often - no angle reward for challenging a bunker even though the green obviously sets up that way.  Instead, carry the bunker and the best angle is from the rough.  Heavy sigh.  Why in the heck is the bunker set an angle when you have to carry the long part to have any chance of hitting the fairway?  Heavy sigh.  In a nutshell, this hole is what is wrong with much or modern design - it sin;t well thought out.


Ciao

[George Freeman]

Well, if this photo is anything to go by, it doesn't impress me.  I see this so often - no angle reward for challenging a bunker even though the green obviously sets up that way.  Instead, carry the bunker and the best angle is from the rough.  Heavy sigh.  Why in the heck is the bunker set an angle when you have to carry the long part to have any chance of hitting the fairway?  Heavy sigh.  In a nutshell, this hole is what is wrong with much or modern design - it sin;t well thought out.

Ciao

Sean,

It looks like there is a reward for challenging the bunker, b/c the closer you are to it (whether on the left in the fairway or on the right in the rough  ), the better your angle into the green.  However, I would agree with you that the angle of the bunker seems backwards in that it creates the opposite of the "cape" effect, where to reach the fairway you have carry the furthest portion of the bunker instead of the shortest.

[Jim Franklin]

Well, if this photo is anything to go by, it doesn't impress me.  I see this so often - no angle reward for challenging a bunker even though the green obviously sets up that way.  Instead, carry the bunker and the best angle is from the rough.  Heavy sigh.  Why in the heck is the bunker set an angle when you have to carry the long part to have any chance of hitting the fairway?  Heavy sigh.  In a nutshell, this hole is what is wrong with much or modern design - it sin;t well thought out.


Ciao

+1 and why I am shocked that it beat RCCC. Again, I need to visit before I make a final judgment.

[JC Jones]

To heck w/ strategy, its about the vistas!  That's why PacDunes is so highly rated....

[Joel_Stewart]

Well, if this photo is anything to go by, it doesn't impress me.  I see this so often - no angle reward for challenging a bunker even though the green obviously sets up that way.  Instead, carry the bunker and the best angle is from the rough.  Heavy sigh.  Why in the heck is the bunker set an angle when you have to carry the long part to have any chance of hitting the fairway?  Heavy sigh.  In a nutshell, this hole is what is wrong with much or modern design - it sin;t well thought out.


Ciao

+1 and why I am shocked that it beat RCCC. Again, I need to visit before I make a final judgment.

I have to agree.  I looked at their web site and didn't see anything new or interesting.  It is walking only which will get a few bonus points.

Below is Martis Camp which finished 3rd.  I think its the best Fazio course I have played out of maybe 15. 

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

Just a small bit but it helps to have a keen photo person using photoshop to illuminate one course over another.

Now, please don't think I'm suggesting that Martis Camp is not a top shelf layout.

I am frankly amazed that a course no one had ever heard about beats out two big time contenders in Rock Creek and MC.

Talk about your Larry Mize / Jack Fleck moments !

[Tommy Williamsen]

I am always amazed that people can speak so authoritatively about a course by viewing a picture.  i have not played the course but will get there in the spring.  I am as curious as anyone to see why the course scored so high as well.

[Rob Rigg]

That is a LONG video they have on the site - lots of bandwidth being taken up there.

I wonder the distance of the walk when you add it all together - from the website course routing page it looks pretty intense as Cory alluded to. Spectacular setting, tons of trees, very "modern" vibe to the course, and probably not for the weak. That is some serious slope.

It looks like there is a par four or five that plays downhill off the tee and then across a pond? How does that hole play? it seems really weird and awkward in the video.

At the end of the day, chapeau to the amateur architects who designed and routed the course. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it is still very cool that a course like this came to fruition and received national recognition.

Looking fwd to getting feedback from some guys who have played both RCCC and PN.

[Andy Troeger]

Unless you guys have researched the hole, how can you tell the bunker in the photo is a "carry bunker." Perhaps one is supposed to challenge it by driving short of it, but the closer one gets to the bunker the better the angle. If that is the case, then the angle of the bunker itself also makes more sense. It certainly seems that the better angle is from the right side. Do any of you really have a clue how far the bunker is from the tee?

Does anyone know why Pikewood National hasn't been on any of the GolfWeek Best New lists at all? It certainly appears to be good enough to make that list easily--I went back and looked but couldn't find it listed.

[Jerry Kluger]

I have not played the course but if you are dealing with elevated tees and not much wind then how much more width is necessary in order to be fair?  That course rating and slope seems quite high if the primary trouble on the course is width as opposed to difficult approach shots for the bogey golfer.

[Bill Brightly]

When I watched the video I thought to myself: "whoever designed this course likes MacRaynors."

I thought that because of the angles and steepness of many of the bunkers. Then I went to the club's website and looked at their hole-by-hole pictures. I can't copy their pictures, but go to the website and look at "The Course",  Hole 3, (Finster) and tell me this is not Biarritz-like: 222-253 yards with long, parallel running bunkers on both sides of the green.

http://www.pikewoodgolfclub.com/index2.html

[Kalen Braley]

Bill,

Thanks for posting that link.  After seeing those pics, it reminded me a bit of Idaho Club.  What I mean by that is the course looks gorgeous with some very nice natural features and interesting shot requirement, but it also looks to be a tough brute with plenty of big numbers and lost balls.

I did get a chuckle at all the name dropping of architects and features. Oddly I would have thought they would have mentioned the qualities of #3 being a biarritz but they didn't.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Good point on the bunker.

If Cory or someone who knows can say what hole it is and how far it plays from the various tee boxes that would help. Ditto on what the carry is for the bunker.

Let me point out that when you have an elevated tee the potential to carry the ball increases as most know. No doubt, as Andy correctly surmised, one can also play shorter or to the side of it too.

Jerry K:

One cannot hold out the assumption that no wind will occur. Having a bit more width allows for elasicity on the playability meter. What concerns me is that when you have amateur architects they presume that there is sufficient width without really comprehending the fullest range of players who will play. No doubt if you only have 30-40 people playing per day then the corridors can be even narrower but the issue I mentioned is about providing for recoverying options. If you have barks of trees literally camped out just outside the fairway cuts you have real issue in understanding that the daily people playing there don't have the dexterity in driving the ball at the level of Fred Funk or Calvin Peete.

[Garland Bayley]

Why would a two tiered green be a Biarritz?

[Bill Brightly]

Why would a two tiered green be a Biarritz?

Why do you think I said "Biarritz-like" ?

Certainly, the feeling on the tee appears to be exactly the same as playing a Biarritz, and the steepness of the bunker faces are prototypical. I just love the near-skyline green, as well.