Downland courses

[Richard Muldoon]

My home course is  West Berkshire GC and is a downland course. It is quite a good course but could and should be a lot better.
To me downlands have a lot of the ingredients for good courses ( well drained, good ground movements, usually a 'honest' breeze, good scenery)
However there doesn't seem to be a lot of really good downland courses.
Can the treehouse/architects explain why and let me know what you consider to be the best ones.
I know the topography in some downlands will be too extreme.
Is it that they are a bit further from town centres?
Farming practises?

Richard

[Ally Mcintosh]

I guess the only true downland course I've played / visited was the completely revamped Goodwood in Sussex (By Howard Swan from  a James Braid design)... It's an interesting course, perhaps hampered in parts by the topography (e.g. The need to play up and down a fairly steep valley)

[Bill_McBride]

What is the difference between downland and heathland courses?

What are other examples of well known downland courses?

Thanks.

[Brent Hutto]

Does a course like Walmer & Kingsdown count as Downland? It's on chalk, drains very well, exposed on a cliff-top to breezes off the Channel. Plays wonderfully firm and fast and has sufficient ground movement for a certain amount of interest although the greens are rather odd and repetitive.

I played a medal round there one afternoon in a very stiff breeze (as in a ball rolling downhill and downwind would not stop until hitting an obstacle, even in the shortish rough) and the turf was quite nice to allow crisp ball-striking with huge bounces upon landing on the fairways or greens.

[Sean_A]

What is the difference between downland and heathland courses?

What are other examples of well known downland courses?

Thanks.

Ace

Downland courses should be open, quite hilly and on chalk subsoil - not terribly good for agriculture or animal raising.  There are many more courses on downland that don't play like a good downland course should - which is essentially a hilly links in the sky (drains much better than a heathland course) - Huntercombe is a good example of what probably should be a downland course, but it is severely compromised by trees.  That said, I doubt there are more than a handful of proper downland courses not compromised by trees.

The best downland course I have seen is Southerndown, which you will see next year at Buda.   Another very good and hugely under-valued downland course (with proper chalk subsoil!) is http://www.hockleygolfclub.com/pages.php/index.html, near Winchester. There are easily 5 or 6 outstanding holes and it has one of the best logos in golf!  It is meant to represent the ideal servant for man.



Additionally, the M3 (right next to Hockley) was built through a massive swath of downland not all that many years ago under massive protest from all sorts of groups.  

I would also mention Kington.  It isn't a downland, but it shares all the same playing and visual characteristics of a downland course.   I know I have said this before, but I think the Pests should be making deep tracks to Kington during Buda because it will likely be the best opportunity many will have to see this truly unique gem.  

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

Bill - downs are chalk hills; they tend to be pretty short on vegetation, apart from grasses, as the soil atop the chalk is very thin and poor. The white cliffs of Dover are chalk. Chalk is highly alkaline.

I visited a course being built near Guildford in Surrey a few months ago on pure chalk. When you strip the small amount of topsoil away, you see the chalk, and it is truly amazing just how white the stuff is!

[Bill_McBride]

What is the difference between downland and heathland courses?

What are other examples of well known downland courses?

Thanks.

Ace

Downland courses should be open, quite hilly and on chalk subsoil - not terribly good for agriculture or animal raising.  There are many more courses on downland that don't play like a good downland course should - which is essentially a hilly links in the sky (drains much better than a heathland course) - Huntercombe is a good example of what probably should be a downland course, but it is severely compromised by trees.  That said, I doubt there are more than a handful of proper downland courses not compromised by trees.

The best downland course I have seen is Southerndown, which you will see next year at Buda.   Another very good and hugely under-valued downland course (with proper chalk subsoil!) is http://www.hockleygolfclub.com/pages.php/index.html, near Winchester. There are easily 5 or 6 outstanding holes and it has one of the best logos in golf!  It is meant to represent the ideal servant for man.



Additionally, the M3 (right next to Hockley) was built through a massive swath of downland not all that many years ago under massive protest from all sorts of groups.  

I would also mention Kington.  It isn't a downland, but it shares all the same playing and visual characteristics of a downland course.   I know I have said this before, but I think the Pests should be making deep tracks to Kington during Buda because it will likely be the best opportunity many will have to see this truly unique gem.  

Ciao

So what about Pennard?  Although there's pretty good grass up there as evidenced by livestock.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I have an affection for Worthing (Lower), but perhaps it illustrates the difficulty of working in a steep valley. Unusually, for Colt, the man-made features are quite stark and crude, not as subtly manipulated as his heathland essays.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

There are some very attractive photos of Worthing on their website: http://www.worthinggolf.co.uk/index.lasso?pg=f05f7c883ec64c51

[Sean_A]

There are some very attractive photos of Worthing on their website: http://www.worthinggolf.co.uk/index.lasso?pg=f05f7c883ec64c51

Mark

The Lower Course does look quite good and it reminds me a lot of Hockley, but Hockley doesn't have near the number of stupid trees.  When did Colt design Worthing?

Ace

Pennard isn't a downland.  It is truly a links.  The only odd thing is it rests high above the beach and pill, but that is meant to be sand buildup under there, presumably all the way to China.

Ciao

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Sean, Their web site says 'soon after the First World War'. Part of the course adjoins Hill Barn which used to host professional events (remember when they held those in England?) and is also quite interesting. Mark.

[Tom_Doak]

I wish I could reproduce here the old photo I have of Sheringham Golf Course from an old 1920's GOLF ILLUSTRATED.  It's one of the most spectacular-looking old golf photos I've seen.  There are two or three holes running along clifftops which are just collapsing into the sea ... unfortunately, most of them have collapsed by now.  But Sheringham and Royal Cromer, up in east Anglia (not too far from Brancaster), are two more downland venues.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Here are websites of a few downland courses:

Sheringham: http://www.sheringhamgolfclub.co.uk/home.htm
High Post: http://www.highpostgolf.co.uk/
Ogbourne Downs: http://www.ogdgc.co.uk/
North Foreland: http://www.northforeland.co.uk/
North Downs: http://www.northdownsgolfclub.co.uk/pages.php/index.html
Effingham: http://www.effinghamgolfclub.com/
Epsom: http://www.epsomgolfclub.co.uk/
Dyke: http://www.dykegolf.com/
Royal Eastbourne: http://www.regc.co.uk/
Eastbourne Downs: http://www.ebdownsgolf.co.uk/
Dunstable Downs: http://www.dunstabledownsgolf.co.uk/
Marlborough: http://www.marlboroughgolfclub.co.uk/


It's by no means an exhaustive list. Do add others to it.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tom, If you're still on GCA, is chalk difficult to work with? I ask this because the shaping, particularly around the greens, of those downland courses I know seem more angular and less subtle than many heathland or parkland courses. 

[Jon Earl]

Here are websites of a few downland courses:

Sheringham: http://www.sheringhamgolfclub.co.uk/home.htm
High Post: http://www.highpostgolf.co.uk/
Ogbourne Downs: http://www.ogdgc.co.uk/
North Foreland: http://www.northforeland.co.uk/
North Downs: http://www.northdownsgolfclub.co.uk/pages.php/index.html
Effingham: http://www.effinghamgolfclub.com/
Epsom: http://www.epsomgolfclub.co.uk/
Dyke: http://www.dykegolf.com/
Royal Eastbourne: http://www.regc.co.uk/
Eastbourne Downs: http://www.ebdownsgolf.co.uk/
Dunstable Downs: http://www.dunstabledownsgolf.co.uk/
Marlborough: http://www.marlboroughgolfclub.co.uk/


It's by no means an exhaustive list. Do add others to it.

East Brighton: http://www.eastbrightongolfclub.co.uk/

[Sean_A]

Tom, If you're still on GCA, is chalk difficult to work with? I ask this because the shaping, particularly around the greens, of those downland courses I know seem more angular and less subtle than many heathland or parkland courses.  

Mark

I bet the shaping around greens stands out because the fairways are not likely shaped to that degree.  Those shaped greens on essentially wide open, smooth landscapes really stands out.  I spsoe the same is true of open farm-land.  Several Colt designs have wild looking (totally non-conforming with the landscape) green sites before trees moved in - some still really stand out as we saw at Prestbury. 

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

I have never worked on those kinds of soils, so I don't know how easy it is to shape.

I think you have to factor in that most of the downland courses were built in the early part of the 20th century, and few of them were built by the big names of the day ... so the not-so-great shaping may be more about the shapers than the soils.

[Neil Regan]

I wish I could reproduce here the old photo I have of Sheringham Golf Course from an old 1920's GOLF ILLUSTRATED.  It's one of the most spectacular-looking old golf photos I've seen.  There are two or three holes running along clifftops which are just collapsing into the sea ... unfortunately, most of them have collapsed by now.  But Sheringham and Royal Cromer, up in east Anglia (not too far from Brancaster), are two more downland venues.

Here are a couple of c1960 postcard of Sheringham that I saw on eBay.


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SHERINGHAM-VIEW-FROM-GOLF-LINKS_W0QQitemZ330386830675QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Collectables_Postcards_MJ?hash=item4cec96f553




http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sheringham-View-from-Golf-Course-postcard-1960_W0QQitemZ380157404938QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Collectables_Postcards_MJ?hash=item588325a70a