[jim_lewis]

I share Jim's view regarding generalizing about scratch or 5 handicappers. With that condition, I agree that Pinehurst #2 seperates the excellent players from the good players better than any course I know. I will only comment based on observing those that I have actually played with.

Scoring well on #2 is all about hitting your approach shot to a spot on the green where it will stay on the green. Those greens will reward an excellent shot and tolerate a good shot. They will turn anything less into a bad shot. Most scratch players have the ability to hit that excellent shot to the right spot pretty often. The 5-10 handicappers hit a lot of approaches that are good, but not excellent. A "merely" good shot will not leave a reasonable putt, and probably won't even wind up on the green. I have seen many players who can not deal with the fact that their "good" shot does not yield "good" results.  They often lose their composure, condemn the course as "unfair" and don't come close to shooting their handicap. By the way, the same can apply to a scratch player, but not as often. Actually, it seems to me that the 12-16 handicapper can do fairly well  on #2. There is not much difference between a mediocre shot and a bad shot. You can make bogey from either, and the 12-16 player is much happier with bogey, while a bogey drives the guy who thinks he deserves better crazy.

[Lester George]

Ocean Course

Ballyhack

Pine Valley

Oakmont

[Greg Tallman]

I'm curious how any handicap player can be stereotyped?

I know plenty of 5's that hit it better than plenty of scratch's.

Precisely. This is more of a ball striker versus scorer thread.

Or on the flip side... What courses give the advantage to a 5 handicap who is a good shotmaker versus the scrappy scratch player with a solid short game?

[George Pazin]

Precisely. This is more of a ball striker versus scorer thread.

Or on the flip side... What courses give the advantage to a 5 handicap who is a good shotmaker versus the scrappy scratch player with a solid short game?

But wouldn't you say that, on the whole, the relative breakdowns between scorers and shotmakers are probably pretty similar within any group? And that the bar for each within his group is pretty high relative to those below him?

For instance, Brad Faxon is legendary for his putting on Tour, and he's probably a pretty lousy ballstriker by Tour standards, but do you really think there are many scratch golfers who are better ball strikers? Or even as good? He knows what it takes ballstriking-wise for him to play on Tour, and plays to his own strengths.

Methinks Jim's folks are the exception, rather than the rule.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

I meant "unique" in that playing angles would be really tough when wind forces balls further and futher from the optimum playing angles.

The course has more playable area than many similar high desert courses -- it's just that you need to handle the sheer velocity of the wind at times -- sidewinds are murderous -- good example -- the 2nd -- if the wind is howling right-to-left it's so e-z to overcook a tee shot and finish further left which only makes the approach that more demanding.

What I'm thinking is that "further left" is in the rocks or lost, not just in a "more demanding" location.  That is the reality of Black Mesa.  I love it but it would be nigh on to impossible in the wind you described above - 40 mph cross wind.

[Bob_Huntley]

Greg,

I have been around a lot of golfers, I have found few "scrappy scratch players with good short games" that stayed scratch for long.

Bob

[JMEvensky]

I'll say the biggest difference between a 0 and a 5 is short game.So,my pick would be any course with smallish,contoured greens where everyone misses and the test becomes chipping and putting.

Of the courses I've played,I say WFW.

[Kyle Harris]

Any course.

A scratch golfer will find a way to get the ball in the hole in less strokes than a 5 handicap anywhere.

That's what makes them scratch and the 5 handicapper a 5 handicap.

[Rob Rigg]

Any course.

A scratch golfer will find a way to get the ball in the hole in less strokes than a 5 handicap anywhere.

That's what makes them scratch and the 5 handicapper a 5 handicap.

Really?

I think it has much more to do with the Slope/Difficulty of the course - as a player's handicap drops the standard deviation of their scores tends to get tighter.

A five has an outside chance of beating a scratch golfer on an easy course on the right day (I know from experience). I do not think a five has any hope of beating a scratch golfer on an Oakmont, Ocean Course, BPB, WF because that is where inferior accuracy off the tee and into the green will be very difficult to overcome no matter how good your short game and putting is.

[Kyle Harris]

Any course.

A scratch golfer will find a way to get the ball in the hole in less strokes than a 5 handicap anywhere.

That's what makes them scratch and the 5 handicapper a 5 handicap.

Really?

I think it has much more to do with the Slope/Difficulty of the course - as a player's handicap drops the standard deviation of their scores tends to get tighter.

A five has an outside chance of beating a scratch golfer on an easy course on the right day (I know from experience). I do not think a five has any hope of beating a scratch golfer on an Oakmont, Ocean Course, BPB, WF because that is where inferior accuracy off the tee and into the green will be very difficult to overcome no matter how good your short game and putting is.

I believe that you are making too many assumptions about the collective skill sets of either golfer to make that claim.

Slope will move the 5 handicap closer or further away from the scratch golfer, but the change will be little more than on stroke either way, no?

What everyone on this thread seems to be assuming is that here exist certain occurrences (I won't even call them discrete skills at this point) like hitting a green in regulation from a tilted lie that a scratch golfer possesses in significantly higher frequency than the 5 handicap. I don't believe there exists any data that could even begin to back up that claim. Sure it "sounds" like it should make sense, but that is the definition of specious reasoning, is it not?

This notion of "exposing" a scratch golfer as compared to a 5 handicap seems to indicate a problem with the handicap system, and not any particular merit of one golf course over the other.

[Alex Miller]

I think Pebble in tourney conditions is also one of these courses.

Ball striking is at a premium with small greens, and if the wind is up, you really have to be on your game.

You also need a great flatstick and wedge to get around Pebble.

[Kyle Harris]

So I don't sound too negative here.

I'd like to see which courses demand the most from their scratch players? Which courses ask for the widest variety of skill sets in golf to play to the scratch level?

You have to be able to do a fairly wide variety of things to get around Huntingdon Valley near the course rating...

[archie_struthers]

 

Spyglass is a real good answer...could it be that Bethpage really favors the long hitter more than the scratch player

In our area National tends to favor the more talented player ....pretty hard to finagle a good score there from the back tees without being really good...

[Carl Rogers]

Riverfront's slope and stroke rating are way too low.  I am not the only one who knows this.

Riverfront is a second shot course.  If that shot is not a consistently good one, a bogey train is very easy.  The long approach putts, bunker shots, pitches, chips & flops are just too unusual (that are unpracticable) and difficult.

[Matt_Ward]

There are plenty of five handicap types who get to that position primarily through a deft short game and putting prowess.

But these same types of players on courses where the driving skills are at the most demanding and you can see the differences big time. Bethpage Black requires -- check that -- demands top shelf driving of the ball -- both distance and accuracy. You won't be able to chip and putt and escape with pars if the driving game falls woefully short. The same can be said for Winged Foot / West.

Scratch players can get off the tee in a much more consistent formula than most five handicaps I have seen. In sum -- the former don't leave many doors open when htting from any tee -- the five handicaps do.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

Is it therefore your position that the best way a 5 Handicap can get to Scratch is to drastically improve their driving and tee game?

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

I've played enough competitive golf and seen plenty of players who can get to a certain point with their scores by being really plucky in terms of short game dexterity and putting.

Watch the scratch or + handicap types and it's the driving game -- both length, shaping and control -- that really separate them. They are almost always in play and generally able to place the tee ball in a position to attack with their approach play. 5 handicap types don't do this nearly as well -- in many cases they are out of position and only through a deft short game are they able to escape with a par.

The driving game allows the scratch player to hit more greens, have more birdie putts and minimize the possibility of having DB's on the card.

[jeffwarne]

Any course.

A scratch golfer will find a way to get the ball in the hole in less strokes than a 5 handicap anywhere.

That's what makes them scratch and the 5 handicapper a 5 handicap.

Really?

I think it has much more to do with the Slope/Difficulty of the course - as a player's handicap drops the standard deviation of their scores tends to get tighter.

A five has an outside chance of beating a scratch golfer on an easy course on the right day (I know from experience). I do not think a five has any hope of beating a scratch golfer on an Oakmont, Ocean Course, BPB, WF because that is where inferior accuracy off the tee and into the green will be very difficult to overcome no matter how good your short game and putting is.

I believe that you are making too many assumptions about the collective skill sets of either golfer to make that claim.

Slope will move the 5 handicap closer or further away from the scratch golfer, but the change will be little more than on stroke either way, no?

What everyone on this thread seems to be assuming is that here exist certain occurrences (I won't even call them discrete skills at this point) like hitting a green in regulation from a tilted lie that a scratch golfer possesses in significantly higher frequency than the 5 handicap. I don't believe there exists any data that could even begin to back up that claim. Sure it "sounds" like it should make sense, but that is the definition of specious reasoning, is it not?

This notion of "exposing" a scratch golfer as compared to a 5 handicap seems to indicate a problem with the handicap system, and not any particular merit of one golf course over the other.

Any course  on a windy day allows the guy giving shots to separate himself, because the course plays harder for both, and the scratch is more likely to have the short game to save himself after the inevitable missed greens, as well as have the skill to know how and when to play for bogie.
Simply playing a more difficult course (with a higher CR and slope) results in the 5 getting more shots whereas wind doesn't increase one's shots that they are granted.
I've enjoyed considerable financial success when playing in the UK during foul weather

[Kalen Braley]

Kyle:

I've played enough competitive golf and seen plenty of players who can get to a certain point with their scores by being really plucky in terms of short game dexterity and putting.

Watch the scratch or + handicap types and it's the driving game -- both length, shaping and control -- that really separate them. They are almost always in play and generally able to place the tee ball in a position to attack with their approach play. 5 handicap types don't do this nearly as well -- in many cases they are out of position and only through a deft short game are they able to escape with a par.

The driving game allows the scratch player to hit more greens, have more birdie putts and minimize the possibility of having DB's on the card.

Matt,

This makes perfect sense.  I mean all the best players on tour, Tiger, Phil, Ernie, Vijay are both long bombers and have very high "fairways hit" percentages!!      

[Kyle Harris]

Matt:

I appreciate the forthright response. Not sure I agree though. The player still has to get from Fairway to Hole and I think you'd agree there is much that can go wrong between the location of the tee shot and the hole that defines the skill of the player. Furthermore, missing the fairway isn't necessarily a death sentence either - even on Bethpage Black - and especially with the current fairway corridors.

I think there are way too many variables and styles of play for any golf course to be "better" at identifying players of differing handicaps.

Differing skill sets? Sure. That's why I asked which courses take the most variety of skills to post a scratch score regularly.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

You entered Tiger, Vijay and Phil into the mix -- little bit of night and day since they have +handicaps which are much lower than scratch.

Kyle, the scratch player has, for the most part as exceptions do occur, more control over the toughest club to hit consistently -- the driver. They get into better position because of their driving -- therefore -- hit more greens -- therefore --- likely get much closer -- therefore -- can make a higher birdie percentage.

Anyone playing Bethpage Black that can't hit the driver is deadsville. The 5 handicap types can play plenty of other courses and get away with hitting 5-6 greens and chip and putt them to death. That doesn't happen with places like BB and WFW. More importantly, the player who is a scratch likely has a solid short game too ... but it's the driving that allows them the big edge the minute they walk off any tee. If you want to know why Nicklaus was so great -- it's the driving side of things -- when you combine length and accuracy it's akin to a team that gains 8 yards on first down. The rest of the game is a good bit easier.

[Gene Greco]

        

Winged Foot West is the ultimate measuring stick to determine just how good you really think you can play.

All the others are mere pretenders to the throne.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Mea culpa on my growing senility !!!

attributed to the wrong person ...

[Rob Rigg]

Kyle,

I am not suggesting that you are "wrong" and I am "right" - but I agree with Matt generally.

Most "tough" courses will be tougher for a 5 handicap than a scratch golfer because of ball control.

There is a reason that most scratch players play from the back tees while most 5 handicaps are better suited to the tees one up. In my experience, the scratch player is simply more consistent off the tee and rarely gets penalized with the driver.

Even shorter hitting scratch golfers usually have the ball striking skills to play from the tips, drive it 250 down the middle, and work the mid to long irons like surgeons.

I know this is not always the case - you are absolutely correct that this is not a black and white issue and cannot be oversimplified.

Jeff,

I was trying to focus my post on the specific question - which course distinguishes a scratch from a five - for me that does not have anything to do with strokes given in a match - just which courses really separate the sticks from the good players.

Yes, I agree, slope on its own is probably not a good example. Any element of a course that puts more weight into ball control will showcase the superior skills of most scratch golfers vs a 5 hcp. Whether that be the elements, tightly tree lined fairways, or whatever.

Obviously there are situations where a straight and steady 5 hcp with an okay short game and only okay putting has a chance to outperform an erratic off the tee short game master.  But let's be honest, most guys on tour are long off the tee, with pretty good ball control - Tiger and Phil can be exceptions which makes them so exciting to watch.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Which course do you think does the best job of differentiating the true scratch player from the 5 handicapper?
And Why?

Every course does a good job of differentiating a true scratch from a 5 handicap.

My vote is Olympic Lake.
The true scratch player can still shoot 71-74, but a 5 handicapper is going to shoot 83 most of the time.

What survey led you to that conclusion ?
Have you examined the list of handicaps of the members at Olympic Lake ?
In the Olympic handicap listing, Is there an aberation in the relationship between 0 handicaps and 5 handicaps at Olympic Lake ?

Why? 2 main reasons in my opinion:

1.  No flat lies, and almost all lies being sidehill to some degree, make ball striking much more difficult. It really seperates the wheat from the chaffe in those that can still hit quality shots because even shots from the middle of the fairway arent simple. Its not easy to hit a 4 iron 4-6 inches below your feet to a hard green.

Montclair Golf Club has worse terrain, yet, there's no aberation in the handicap differentials between a 0 and a 5.

You seem to forget that a handicap is arrived at by taking the lowest 10 of the last 20 scores (with stroke control)
On any course, the range of scores (last 20) is tighter for a 0 than it is for a 5.

2. The small greens and penal green surrounds.
If you hit the greens, you score fine.How many GIR's does a Tour player hit ?
 
The ratio of greens hit by scratch players versus the 5 HCP on the Lake, I would bet is much higher than on most other courses.

Why do you assume that the 0 handicap will continue to hit his usual number of GIR while the 5 handicap won't.
Won't smaller greens affect the play of both the 0 and the 5 proportionate to their skill level ?

The greens are subtle, and its hard to make birdies, but because they're small, if youre hittting greens in regulation, you're not going to three putt all day.

The above is a contradictory statement.
If the greens are so difficult that you're not going to make birdies when you hit them in regulation they can't be so easy that a two putt is automatic.
You can't have it both ways.

However, the margin for error is small and the bunkers/slopes/rough around the greens ensure you're not going to have any easy up and down if you miss.

That applies almosts equally to both players.

You can miss by 5 yards and be short sided in a bunker and you have a guaranteed bogey.
The 5 who shoots 83 probably wont make any triples on this course because theres no water/minimal OB, but you'll be on the bogey/double train all day unless your long game is consistent.

Your premise insists upon a 5 handicap producing a score of 83.
While you have a 0 producing a score of 71-74.
How did you arrive at determining that a 5 will shoot 83 ?
Can I take that bet with you ?
83 we push, under 83 I win, over 83 you win ?

Do you agree?
NO

Any other candidates??
Almost any other golf course on the planet.

Par isn't the benchmark for determining score, slope/course rating are better barometers.

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