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Phil_the_Author

Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2009, 07:00:54 PM »
David,

The ONLY reason I am responding is to clear up a few points.

First, I am NOT "playing games" with my comments, usual or otherwise, as I was accused of doing.

Second, for someone who demands that claims be backed up with proof and documentation you seem to expect that your own comments be accepted without question. For example, you stated, "as for the yardage, it was listed as 6300 yards in the paper in 1922, but it had earlier been listed as around 6500 yards..."

WHERE HAD IT BEEN "LISTED AS AROUND 6,500" YARDS EARLIER?

The answer is in only a single article from June of 1921 that turns out to be a typo. The original plans listed each hole and length and total at 6,300 yards. The original board minutes list the entire course hole-by-hole including lengths and state that it was 6,300 yards. Tilly's own correspondence with the club state that the course was to be 6,300 yards and WHEN COMPLETED was 6,300 yards in length. Not about either, but exactly.

That is why the October 28, 1922, issue of the Dallas Morning News reported, under the banner headline "Entire 18 Holes To Be Opened For Play For First Time" each hole with their lengths and stated "6300 yards Par 70."

You state that, "why not just present the evidence?" I DID! I quoted directly from the board minutes and then reiterated that I had. I will NOT post copies of those minutes for a number of reasons, the primary one being that the club doesn't mind their being quoted from at this time but until they choose to publish them they have asked me, and I've agreed with this, not to.

Your post is filled with a great deal of misinformation and misunderstandings on your part. To quote you, "Here is an example.   You mentioned articles in the Dallas Morning News, so I just took a quick look at a few articles and I think your information needs some serious vetting.  For example, you claim the course was almost destroyed in 1923, had to be closed, redesigned and rebuilt, and then reopened in February 1924.  But a quick look at the articles, and it seems they were playing on the course throughout 1923, with the last event being a tournament there at the end of October, 1923.    The first event of 1914 was on January 10; an Vardon exhibition match   So if the course closed it was only closed for two months, which doesn't seem like much time to do a complete redesign of the course."

That sounds good, but has no semblance to reality. The course had play on it during 1923, very LIMITED play on LESS than 18 holes. In fact, the club made arrangements for their members to play elsewhere during the time period the course was being worked on, something that can be clearly found if one has access to the board minutes and other club records. By the way, the drought and floods happened from late spring and through the summer, so play earlier in the year was not hindered.

At the time of the Vardon match in January 1924 (I'm ignoring your 1914 typo), the course had still not fully grown in. It wouldn't be until the end of February that the club noted that the grass had finally finished growing in.

As you said, you simply "took a quick look at a few articles"; well I took a very LONG look at ALL of the SEVERAL THOUSAND articles that mention Brook Hollow from 1919 to 1976 and are contained in the Dallas Morning News archives. I have everyone of them in my database including those you incorrectly referenced as proof of your assertion that my statement was incorrect.

You begin your post with the innocuous statement telling me that "instead of getting upset or offended..." That sounds quite sincere coming from one whose previous comment referring to me was that "it is always a problem when people refuse to back up their claims and legends with supporting facts." And of course, there I should appreciate that when Tom Macwood stated, "Phil is playing games as usual" it was a said in the spirit of friendly congeniality?

Accept my comments or not, make comments either correct or not doesn't matter. I began by saying that I needed only clear up a few points and so whether you accept them or not, I did.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 07:14:40 PM by Philip Young »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2009, 07:31:03 PM »
Classy post, Phil.  The first time i read it you jumped down my throat because you claimed there was no earlier report of a 6500 course.  As if I made it up.   You were wrong.    But instead of admitting  your error you simply kept at me and edited away the original.  Real class.

You need to man up Phil.  Your analysis is not beyond question or challenge.  You have yet to substantiate most of your claims.  You haven't quoted anything about a major redesign.  You haven't substiated any of your new claims.

Contrary to your claims, half the course opened in 1922 then the entire course opened later that year.  Are you sure you don't have your years confused?

Because everything in my post is straight from the paper.



Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2009, 07:44:01 PM »
Phil...

If that was indeed your last post on this thread or this site, that would suck!!!  I thought of trying to use another more sophisticated word...but f**k it...that would suck!!!

You are an accomplished scholar and historian and we need you on this site.  Period!

As you all know, I had my issues with the walking vs. riding thing and Melvyn really got under my skin with his comments.  But when I began talking to him off line, I learned that the "tone" of his comments were not completely ressonating with the keyboard and internet chat board.  Had we been having a face-to-face converation, perhaps our communication would have been better.  Anyway, the point is that I "get" him now and I consider him a friend.  This might speak to the fact that if you take that extra step to communicate...things might come off better.

Dave Moriarty can come off as the high and mighty arbiter of all research and unless he has vetted it, it has no meaning.  However, perhaps this is a tone issue.  Maybe he doesn't mean to come off that way.  I know that if a client questions my decision to make buys or sells in the market, it is off-putting to me.  How dare they question me.  Don't they know my track record?  Don't they know how much we are beating the market by?  But usually they just want to know why I am thinking that way.  That is all.  So, perhaps David isn't saying all who say things are wrong, he just wants it to be verified.  Maybe he could say it in a toned down way, and maybe the receipients of his comments could try to take it better.  I know it is hard to understand tone, but I think it can be done.

Tom Macwood comes off as gruff.  Point blank statement, small quick bursts...impossible to take any tone from him except his seems pissed, annoyed, or both.  Maybe more verbage from him, maybe an understading that he will always post that way.  Who knows? but he certainly can add some value, but he also can be wrong from time to time...as we all can be.

Tom Paul...well, he is going to say what he feels and he is not going to take crap from anyone.  Now whether someone is actually givnig him crap or not is debatable. :)  It seems like Jim Kennedy and him battle from time to time, but I am not sure if they are kdding or not.  It think they are not, but again who knows.  It's had to get the tone.

I won't go on and on and talk about everyone, but these three (or 4) really seem to battle a lot.

But, oh yeah,  let's not leave me out of this.  Newbie, over-poster, ignorant, naive, wanna be.  Feel free to insert whatever else you guys want to on me...

But I want to see all of you post and discover, discuss, etc...and yes, you will argue...everyone does and the more intense your passion for a subject the more intense the debate.  But let's not loose sight of the ultimate goal...golf course architecture, research, discovery, and the like...at least that seems to be the goal for this contingency on the site.

If we do this type of stuff, maybe more will join the site and/or will want to contribute or contribute again.  But maybe it is the aruguments nad fights that you all like.  If that is the case...ready, fire, aim!!!

In closing...Phil I hope you continue to post.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 07:48:40 PM by Mac Plumart »
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2009, 08:05:43 PM »
Mac,
It would be a shame if Phil quits posting, he's got a wealth of information, especially about AWT.

You touched upon the biggest problem this site has when it comes to information, the minute someone questions the veracity of it the person presenting it has a fit.

I say, if your information is any good you should just offer it up and let the non believers have at it. Who knows, you just might learn something new in the process, and all you have to do is get out of your own way to do it.

It's so damn simple.

 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Phil_the_Author

Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2009, 08:31:43 PM »
David,

I always man up. Yes, I made a mistake and corrected it immediately. Unfortunately, despite being only a few minutes later, it wasn't fast enough. After I posted I rememberred the article and checked it to make certain. Still, the fact remaains that it was a typo and should have read 6,300 yards.

You further stated that, "Your analysis is not beyond question or challenge." I never stated that it wasn't. You state that I haven't substantiated most of my claims. I disagree with that. I quoted DIRECTLY from the board minutes and meeting notes as well as other documents AND newspaper accounts. These included the major redesign that occurred in 1923. As I clearly stated I have agreed not to publish the records and minutes I have had access to although I have been allowed to quote some portions.

You stated, "Contrary to your claims, half the course opened in 1922 then the entire course opened later that year.  Are you sure you don't have your years confused?" You are incorrect. Limited play, restricted to nine holes only was allowed on weekends only and not every weekend. The course was not open for regular play to the membership until the entire 18 was open for play on October 28, 1922, as reported in the Dallas Morning News. This is backed up by the board minutes as well.

No David, I was NOT confused because I relied, not JUST on A FEW newspaper accounts, but ALL of them. In addition I also examined ALL the board minutes and notes, correspondence between the club & Tilly, and copies of original plans and drawings and much more.

It is time for you to man up, David, and admit that you are wrong.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 08:51:43 PM by Philip Young »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2009, 09:11:10 PM »
Here is the article of the Dallas paper. I'm not sure the Golf Course Guide continually updated their info, but Brook Hollow was listed as 6300 yds. par-70 in 1923, 1925 and 1926.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2009, 10:33:17 PM »
"Here is the article of the Dallas paper. I'm not sure the Golf Course Guide continually updated their info, but Brook Hollow was listed as 6300 yds. par-70 in 1923, 1925 and 1926."

They didn't.

On February 2nd 1924 the board minutes recorded, "Your Grounds Committee reports that with the exception of eliminating a few rough spots, which work is now being finished, the Brook Hollow Golf Course is complete, according to the plans made by Golf Architect, Tillinghast. The length of the course can be made anywhere between 6,200 and 6,600 yards, according to where the two markers are placed on the tee. There is a variety of golf shots that can be equaled on few courses. The construction of the greens is along modern lines, undulating and well trapped..."

Of course since that wasn't written in the newspaper I guess it isn't true... otherwise you have to admit that you also were mistaken...
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 10:35:29 PM by Philip Young »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2009, 11:47:25 PM »
David Moriarty,

History should be revised as the facts dictate, and we see more and more instances where the accepted version of history is incomplete or just plain wrong.   It seems that the real problem is a lack of historical revision caused by an unwillingness of those who are heavily invested in their romantic legends to revise the legends when the facts so dictate.

David, I agree with your comment, but, I wouldn't attribute "romanticism" as the motivating factor behind the failure to revise.

There are many reasons behind the failure to revise in the face of new, revealing facts.

Irrespective of the reason, the failure to revise in the face of facts to the contrary is wrong.

Thus, it's not that history needs to be revised, it's that history needs to be corrected.
The word, "revision" seems to connote a change for devious reasons, whereas, the word, "corrected" seems to more accurately describe the process.



 

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #58 on: December 11, 2009, 02:00:24 AM »
Phillip,

Might I suggest you take a step back and reexamine this thread.   You are the one who made the claims about Brook Hollow.  Something about the story sounds strange to me and so I found a few facts and asked you a few questions.  Your response was to fly off the handle, unequivocally and rudely accusing me of posting information without any basis. (Hardly a "man up" to me.)  After your rude posted you edited the substance out of your attack, yet you not only let the rudeness and accusatory tone stand, you piled on more rudeness, sarcasm, and more accusations about the basis for my questions.  You followed one classless post with another, even ending your last post with the juvenile demand that I admit I am wrong.

Wrong about what?   I've got no horse in this race.  I am just trying to understand what sounds to me like a very strange situation.   It doesn't make sense to me, and I am trying to figure it out.   Your reaction was out of line.   Grow up and deal with the facts instead of throwing tantrums.

Turning to Brook Hollow, let me ask you again: Do you have your dates right?  Because it appears to me that you are off by a year or so on many things.  And much of this just doesn't make sense. 
-  The terrible floods on the Trinity River were in the spring of 1922, not 1923.
-  You claim that, after opening at the end of 1922, the floods and drought shut down play sometime after the spring and summer.  "The course had play on it during 1923, very LIMITED play on LESS than 18 holes."
- The paper shows a full slate of tournaments at the course from the through the second half of the year, the last one in early December. There was an Independence Day tournament, a Realtor tournament, and a month long match play event which was played mostly on weekdays.  There were various stroke play events.  All the tournaments were played over 18 hole rounds and there is no mention of them going around twice.  No mention of limited playability or tough conditions. 
-  You claim that the course was not really ready for play when Vardon played it in January 1924, but they had been playing tournaments on it the month before!
-  Similarly, you claim that in 1922, before the October opening, the course was not open, except they were playing on it on some weekends.  (Not sure how this is "not open" but nevermind.)   
-  The paper reported that they were playing on nine holes on Saturday afternoons and Sundays by June of 1921.   Again you seem to be a year off.
-  The full course opened for the first time in October of 1922, but the second nine was supposed to open in theFall of 1921.   Again, a year off.   

That is some of what doesn't really make sense.   As you keep saying, you have the documents, so surely you can substantiate what you are claiming. 

I don't have the documents, but here is a wild guess based on what little I know:   The first nine was supposed to open in the Spring of 1921 and the second nine in the Fall of 1921.  The first nine was at least playable a few days a week by early summer 1921, but they were having trouble growing grass, especially on the second nine.   When the floods came in the spring of 1922, it set them back and they had to place some sod and do some reseeding, and they didn't finally open the entire course until  October of 1922.   From then on, the course remained open.

Now I may be wrong, but at least my story makes sense.  Yours doesn't, at least not so far.   You have not provided factual support for most of your major conclusions.  I have read what support you have offered, and it doesn't even come close to establishing what you are treating as fact.   Maybe you just haven't quoted the relevant information, but if so, then quit claiming you have.   Namely,  you have provided no substantiation that the course was closed in 1923, redesigned, and reopened in 1924.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Phil_the_Author

Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2009, 05:59:06 AM »
David,

Sorry that you take both offense to the tenor and substance to what I wrote. Let's get things straight in this final post of mine. I was not the one who "made claims about Brook Hollow," Tom Macwood did. He posted an aerial taken in 1926 and not only stated that it was of the course before changes were done to it but he called the person who had mentioned Brook Hollow originally "Ignorant" as in "Ignorance is bliss."

The reality is that he was and is ignorant of what happened at Brook Hollow and so are you.

Of course I guess I shouldn't be annoyed at your REASONABLE comment that I was passing simply stating a "Legend" nor should I take offense at Tom for stating that I was "playing my usual games" with my comment. No, I am the villain in all of this.

I'm sorry, but your "understanding" of what happened is completely incorrect. You are wriong and your incorrect version of events neither makes sense nore fits in with any of the "facts." Again, if you examined even just all of the newspaper accounts you would see that. If you examined the minutes, notes and records of the club you would know that for a CERTAINTY. I have done both. NEITHER you nor Tom have.

For once it would do the two of you some good to simply ASK what did you find without a statement such as immediately saying
Phil, it makes no sense." You could have asked, What can you share from the records? Yet that isn't what either of you did. You both insulted and continue to do so. So call my response a "tantrum" if you'd like. Forget that you would be wrong in doing so; the bottom line is that you both blew a real opportunity to learn something from one person who knows what actually happened and what the evidence is that backs it up.

I said in the past that my posting just wasn't worth this type of nonsense and stopped before I began posting again. That was a mistake and this post is simply to let all know who are interested in the history of Brook Hollow to email me and I'll be more than happy to share what I can with them... But I'll no longer do it on here...

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2009, 06:20:56 AM »
Phil
Your story makes no sense. A complete overhaul or redesign to most objective viewers is not lengthening a course by 200 or 300 yards. It is moving greens, moving fairways, moving holes, creating new holes.....why in the hell would they do that one year after the course opened? When they overhauled the course did they also rip out the new watering system and re-install a completely new one? Please explain what exactly was overhauled.

By the way that is not an aerial...that picture is a drawing, and it was attached to an unattributed article in Golf Illustrated in 1934, when Tilly was the editor. I'd say there is a 50/50 chance he was the author. In the article he talks about the course being inspired by PV; he talks about only nine holes being finished and in play in 1922; he talks about the full 18 being ready in the fall of 1923; he talks about the condition of the turf being well-knit once the course matured; he does not talk about the course being completely overhauled a year after it opened.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 06:40:35 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2009, 10:13:21 AM »
Pat:

Your post #57 is a very interesting one and an important one for this website if most or some on this website are ever going to come to realize the reality of these things and these clubs and how they deal with and present their club and architectural histories.

For the likes of those on here such as Moriarty and MacWood who seem to be and to have been the most vocal and the most critical of a number of signficant clubs and courses and their histories, I would say their accusations towards some of these clubs of the promotion of their architects into "legends" due to romanticism or historical distortions, purposefully or otherwise, is merely the result of a lack of understanding and/or familiarity on the part of the likes of Moriarty and MacWood with most all of these clubs that become their subjects of interest on this website.

Since I have not known either of them, particularly Moriarty, to have ever had any direct relationship with any of these clubs that become their subjects of interest in this way, I'm afraid they just have no idea how these clubs deal with new information that may or may not effect the accuracy and historical correctness of their courses and clubs and architects.

Unfortunately, due to that total lack of relationships with these clubs, those two particularly, tend to blame a club's history book or whatever for not being accurate and not correcting past inaccuracies and even for the omissions of various facts. The point is none of these clubs are going to reprint and reissue a history book every time some historical fact needs to be corrected and furthermore for really obvious reasons, that these two have never seemed to understand or appreciate, most all club history books never contain all the facts and details of a club's or course's architectural history for really obvious reasons----eg these clubs do not see the need to produce history books that could run to thousands of pages because they must contain every single architectural and historical fact contained within a club's archives. What club history book as ever done that? Why would they ever do something like that? Would it be because a couple of critics who they've never even heard of think they should?  ;)

And because these two either have not or do not establish these close relationships with these clubs that become the subjects of their interest, or that they seem to feel there is no necessary reason to establish these close relationships with these clubs, there is virtually no way either of them could ever understand how these clubs deal with these things such as correcting their architectural histories when they see the informational reasons to do so. For them to understand that they would pretty much need to establish close relationships with these clubs as some of us have and see how these things are corrected and dealt with within the historical archives of these clubs!

Phil Young has obviously had close relationships with a lot of clubs and he would understand this as some others on here or who we're aware of do. Wayne and I have had close relationships with some dozens of clubs and their architectural and historical archives, and we and a number of others will have many more of them in the future, and, with perhaps one exception to this point, I am not aware of a single one of these clubs that refused or was unwilling to correct their histories about their course or architects (for romantic reasons or reasons of trying to inaccuarately promote "legends" or whatever ;) ) when shown the material documentation and logical and good reasons to make corrections.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 10:21:13 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #62 on: December 11, 2009, 10:33:52 AM »
Phil:

My advice to you is that you simply suggest that anyone on here truly interested in the details of the architecture of Brook Hollow and the details of its evolution, and particularly MacWood and Moriarty, who certainly seem to be the only two on here truly interested in all these details, merely contact the club and attempt to actually go there and establish a close relationship with it as you have. It would seem that then, and only then, will they perhaps somehow and some day be satisfied!  ;)

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #63 on: December 11, 2009, 11:44:36 AM »
I certainly have no knowledge of any of these facts, factoids, legends or whatever of none of these historical golf courses that everyone seems to get their panties in a wad over.  But, Mike Young merely asks a question about whether this site helps create revisionist history.  Well, on that I am going to be inclined to believe, yes.  I'm also going to opine that revisionist history can have either a positive or negative connotation. 

If a specially invested group in the perception of an historical event has an ideal or desire to prove things happened in one way, and dig up spurious or misleading or misinterpreted facts, factoids, or less than original source material to try and form a new vision of what may have happened in history, and that makes their group, cause or whatever look better in that context, despite overwhelming original source material that concluded and had been conventional wisdom, then revisionist history is a bad thing. 

But, if sifting and winnowing, debate and presentation of new, original source, on-the-ground accounts of events from participants, such as a diary recently discovered, or a lost set of documents, bills, etc., are uncovered and used in proper context to what was previously known, and the revisionist has met the burden of reasonable proof to change the understanding of events, chronologically, or major players in the event, or their provable motives, etc., then revisionist history, that withstands scrutiny is good.

As a side note to these endless debates on what in my opinion are trivial factoids of what date play occured and to what extent a course was lengthened, it doesn't seem to change the basic context of the history of that particular club, who did the GCA work, and what was there generally in terms of features of design.  How it evolved to today and the changes that occureed and why over many decades may be more of the living history that is important to understand the process of GCA, in the evolving history context.  What was there on say a Tuesday, Oct 25, 1923 or Friday, April 4, 1924 etc, could be slightly different, remodelled, lengthened etc., but hardly a new course designed by a different archie, and different design visions, it seems to me. 

But, in any event, I'd finally say that while I'm no scholar, I generally find when I read 'serious' history books, that the authors use FOOTNOTES often, and present their source material upfront.  Then, whether revisionist or reinforcing or adding on to what was already known, the reader can go to the source material, if so inclined, and DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES.  The historians may get into a sifting and winnowing debate on the accuracy of the new material (probably in some trade historian journal) and sometimes the disagreements get resolved, and sometimes not.  But, for the general consuming public interested in the history of one event or era or another, they are left to either try and read objectively and wisely, and form their own opinion of whose historical account is more plausible. 

If people have some deep seated need to believe a 'revisionist' version, that more suits their personal belief system, they aren't going to accept the more scholarly and well footnoted with origianal source material citations.  They will believe the flimsy constructions of those that have an agenda beyond the documented truth as we have discovered it. 


So, good fellows of the profound golf college of scholarly historical studies, state your case, leave your footnotes, and just let the rest of us decide whose facts ring sound, without the animosity of a petty debate about nothing much, really.  Speaking for myself, I think it really gets stale, gentlemen.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2009, 11:51:19 AM »
TEP
I don't believe David and I were the only two on this thread who questioned the logic of Phil's claim, and the fact that he refused to support it didn't help. Of course you yourself have been accused of making illogical claims in the past, and have also refused to present info on occasion too.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 11:54:12 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2009, 12:00:44 PM »
"TEP
I don't believe David and I were only two on this thread who questioned the logic of Phil's claim, and the fact that he refused to support it didn't help."


Tom MacWood:

That could very well be the case, and if so feel free to mention anyone else you think was truly interested in constantly questioning Phil or his logic on the architectural and evolutionary details of Brook Hollow. I certainly don't want to speak for you or anyone else on here. I only mentioned what I believe in that vein.

To be honest, I didn't really read those Brook Hollow posts all that carefully because that specific subject doesn't interest me that much. But I do recall a post by Jeff Brauer explaining to you or Moriarty, I think, just how much natural conditions and weather conditions can tear things up in Texas. I don't believe anyone even responded to him on that which is too bad because it sounds logical to me and Jeff Brauer is surely one who would know something like that.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2009, 12:16:44 PM »
It should be very apparent that there is a lot more going on here than a disagreement about the subject of this thread or Brook Hollow in particular.  It is not about good research or the record having some semblance of reality.  It is personal, very negative, and it should stop.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2009, 12:34:55 PM »
Philip,

Sounds like a complete do-over.  After 1 year?

Lester

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2009, 02:12:52 PM »
For me this is very much about about good research and analysis, and about getting it right.   And, more importantly, the most effective way to go about it.  Again and again we have people putting forward some claim or another, and all too often they cannot or will not substantiate their claims.   Instead they hunker down and insist that they are correct, that they know more, that they have all the information and others do not.   To that I say what I've always said.  Prove it.  Make your case.  Substantiate it.   It is very simple.    It has nothing to do with club relationships, or the number of documents reviewed, or whether you consider yourself an expert or not.   You still have to substantiate your claims.  Otherwise your claims add NOTHING TO THE CONVERSATION.   Less than nothing, really, because we are often left with a false impression of what really happened.

I don't think I've met Phil, but he seems like a nice guy to me.  Sincere, hard working, genuine, etc.  A really decent fellow.  But he is not exempt from having to substantiate his claims.  Yet when challenged or questioned he often doesn't substantiate his claims but instead becomes defensive and indignant, citing his general expertise, and the scope of his research (I've looked carefully at thousands of articles . . . I've studied the minutes . . .) as if his efforts somehow converted everything he said into fact.   Hard work is only the beginning.   One must also present the facts and analysis, and while Phil is very good at telling us his conclusions he often balks at supporting them.  I am just asking him and everyone else ot substantiate their claims.

So, whether he is right or wrong about Brook Hollow, Phillip is unwittingly providing a perfect example of why the history of golf course design is so screwed up.   It shouldn't be about who you are, who you know, or even what you have have looked at.  It shouldn't be about what the club would like us to know.  It should be about what really happened;  about finding and presenting facts and analysis in a manner that provides interested parties with the opportunity to understand exactly what supports our conclusions, and to challenge them if need be.   That is how the process is supposed to work.  
_____________________________________________

Phillip,  

Unfortunately, instead of addressing my questions and concerns, you seem intent on just repeating that I am wrong and you are right.   While that may be, you haven't yet substantiated your claims.   There are a number of things about your version that make no sense.  How about instead of declaring me "wrong," you substantiate your claims?  I am more than willing to be the fall guy if you are willing to provide everyone with an example of how a solid researcher such as yourself can really make and support his case.  

Some places to start . . .
-  As I understand it, you claim that the course was nearly destroyed in the spring and early summer of 1923 when severe flooding occurred, followed by a drought.   My understanding the Liberty River experienced major flooding in 1922 but not in 1923.  My understanding is that 1921 was a major drought year across the entire region, and then beginning in the summer of 1922 there were further droughts, which were finally broken in the fall.  So I wonder if you aren't off by a year.  When was the course nearly destroyed by flooding followed by a drought?

-  As I understand it, you claim that after these weather events the course was being rebuilt, and that the course was closed except for for very limited weekend play on some weekends.   Yet the Dallas Morning News reported a full range of tournaments on the course during this exact time period, from the Fourth of July into December.   When was the course closed because of the damage?  And for how long?

-  You quote the board as writing: "The cost of finishing the course has exceeded our original estimate, due to excessive floods causing washouts and then droughts which made it necessary to re-seed and spot sod some of the greens and fairways several times. Recently we had the highest water since 1908. It was several feet deep over the 14th and 15th tees and partly out in the 15th fairway..."   During the 1921 flooding, the newspapers frequently noted that it was the highes water since 1908.   What specifically was the date of this entry?    Are you sure you have these dates accurate?
-- Along those lines, could you please echeck the date of the entry declaring the course finished? Sure would make a lot of sense if it were Feb. 1923 instead of 1924.

Generally, Phillip, the story seems to make much more sense if your timeline is off by a year.  
-- Course designed and built and 9 holes seeded in the spring of 1920.  
-- Second nine holes seeded near the end of that year for opening in the fall.  
-- Nine holes playable enough to be  open on weekends by summer 1921.
-- Severe drought makes the going tough through the second half of 1921, and second nine not ready when scheduled.
-- Severe flooding throughout spring of 1922, followed by summer drought damages course parts require reseeding and/or sod.
-- Entire 18 holes finally ready to open in October of 1922.

You also claim the course was lengthened, and that the earlier report that the course was around 6500 yards was a typo, and that when the course opened it was 6300 yards.
- How do you know it was a typo?
- What is your proof that the course was lengthened?
- Are you just relying on the total yardages mentioned?   If so, how do you know that it wasn't simply a measuring methodology issue?

Further,
- What is your basis for thinking many bunkers and tees were repositioned?
- What is your basis for believing that there was a redesign?


I'd be glad to be "wrong" about this Phil.   I am just asking you to substantiate your claim.   Show me where I am "wrong" instead of just repeatedly declaring that I am wrong.

Surely asking you to check some dates is not unreasonable, is it?

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« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 02:35:59 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2009, 03:12:17 PM »
Hmmm..seems this thread has sort of explained the very question I was asking ;) ;) ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2009, 03:55:32 PM »

Tom MacWood,

If you are going to reference what I said in post #37, please refer to what I sain in post #18 as well. 

Otherwise you will be guilty of the very thing you are accusing others of doing....not presenting complete or accurate information.

Lester

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2009, 04:51:33 PM »
My referencing post #37 was in response to a question about Brook Hollow. Why would I reference post #18; what does it have to do with Brook Hollow overhauling their golf course in 1924?

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:
« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2009, 04:55:04 PM »


     Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?

No.  Our virtually unanimous concensus that Xenophon Hassenplug is the greatest golf archie of all time proves it.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2009, 05:06:29 PM »
Hmmm..seems this thread has sort of explained the very question I was asking ;) ;) ;)

Mike Young,

See what you started?  I bet you did it on purpose.  There must be a lull in your busy schedlue.

We need to appoint a judge to mediate this site, complete with powers to hold bad actors in contempt.  Perhaps we can create an "Objection- asked and answered emoticon".  No one should be subjected to the pestering minutae over such relatively unimportant matters.  Is adding 300 yards to a 6300 yard golf course shortly after opening a major change?  Perhaps not today, but back then, I would say so.  Others may disagree and that's fine.  
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 05:31:37 PM by Lou_Duran »

TEPaul

Re: Has this site helped create a revisionist history for GCA?
« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2009, 05:19:13 PM »
"Hmmm..seems this thread has sort of explained the very question I was asking.   ;) ;) ;)"


Well, explaining the very question you were asking was sort of the idea, right Mikey?

It explains when it comes to the history of GCA and the architectural history of courses what actually goes on here on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com and why.

You did good MikeyY!  
« Last Edit: December 11, 2009, 05:23:21 PM by TEPaul »