[Sean_A]

I was reading recently where T Simpson included the 1st, 8th and 18th among his best 18 holes of GB&I.  I took that to mean of the holes he created (based on his selecteions at CB), though I could be wrong as I haven't seen the entire list.  In any case, have these holes been significantly changed?  I suspect #8 used to be a par 3, but I don't have concrete evidence of that.  Its a clever hole, but I wonder if it would be better if it were shorter - perhaps as it used to be.  As for the 1st and 18th, not bad holes at all, but among the best 18 in GB&I?. 

I am very surprised that Simpson didn't pick at least one of the 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th or 13th - especially the 6th, however, Simpson may not have felt the hole was entirely his (the green site is OTM/A Simpson).  Though Simpson clearly praises the hole in Design for Golf as one of his favourites.  I also think the 13th is heavily borrowed from the OTM/A Simpson course.  However, how in the world can all of 3, 4, and 7 be passed over for 1 & 18? 

Does anybody have this best of GB&I list which includes the three CB holes? 

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

According to the Club history, the 6th was the only hole at CB which was chosen for Tom Simpson's best 18 which, as I have written before was ironic, given that it's distinctive green was OTM and Archie Simpson's (no relation) creation, and T. Simpson made no secret of his contempt for OTM, Archie and the other "Dark Age" designers.  Some historians (including at least one forrmerly active on this site) got confused by the involvement of the two Simpsons (whose contributions were 25-30 years apart).  Maybe Tom himself got confused when he chose that 18 twenty-five+ years after his involvement at CB.....

Rich

[Sean_A]

Sean

According to the Club history, the 6th was the only hole at CB which was chosen for Tom Simpson's best 18 which, as I have written before was ironic, given that it's distinctive green was OTM and Archie Simpson's (no relation) creation, and T. Simpson made no secret of his contempt for OTM, Archie and the other "Dark Age" designers.  Some historians (including at least one forrmerly active on this site) got confused by the involvement of the two Simpsons (whose contributions were 25-30 years apart).  Maybe Tom himself got confused when he chose that 18 twenty-five+ years after his involvement at CB.....

Rich

Rich

Hmmm.  I have heard/read more than once that Simpson selected three holes from CB for his best of list, but I am not sure if this list is "his" best 18 or the best overall in GB&I.  Do you have the list or perhaps know the article/book in which Simpson published this list?  I am also very interested to know what Fowler did at CB.  I ask because I never felt CB was much like other Simpson courses and he was a partner of Fowler.  In any case, its criminal that Simpson is so consistently listed as the CB archie when it is clear there are significant contributions from at least two other people. 

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

All the Club history says is "In his Design of Golf (1952), Tom Simpson dedscribes the sixth hole as one of his favourite holes in the British Isles."  So, maybe there is another top 18 he wrote about elsewhere.  If so, however, the choice of 1, 8 and 18 is as baffling to you as it is to me.  In fact......

....if you go through hole by hole, these three could be the worse of the ones for which T. Simpson can claim full credit (his others being 3, 4, 5, 11 and 16).  All the rest are either original OTM/A. Simpson holes or use their green sites.

As to Fowler, he is mentioned as being involved, but they seem to give Tom all the credit.  Maybe that is one reason they split up a few years afterwards?  In any case as one writer has said, "Thomas Simpson was one of those characters almost beyond parody."

Vis a vis attribution, when you buy your copy of the new "World Atlas of Golf" that I have given proper credit to Morris and Archie Simpson.  Given his recent work, I suspect that Frank Pont will be added to the list in future editions.

Rich

[Tony_Muldoon]

The 18th, why did Simpson rate it so highly?


He wrote the following in Carter’s annual publication The Practical Greenkeeper.


“I have in mind a little fold in the ground on the eighteenth green at Cruden bay. The hole is 385 yards in length.  You begin to think about it walking to the tee.  ON the tee it causes you “furiously to think” and you have to make up your mind whether you shall try and take the difficult left-hand line with your tee-shot. If you pull it off well and good, you can then snap your fingers at the slope on the green.  On the other hand, if you take the other line, that little fold will worry you till the last minute.  It is the subtle things that count in everything.”


Well... it makes me want to see some old photos of that green. Anyone?

Can someone who has a copy of Design of Golf please check what he wrote there?




Pictures below from Frank Pont.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Shameless BUMP!

Hopefully Paul Turner or Tommy N or someone will have an old photo of the green.  Anyone?

[Ally Mcintosh]

I have just today applied to become a member at Cruden Bay... Aside from the fact that I love the course, the reasons are really a little more straightforward:

1) I am originally from Aberdeen. It feels like home
2) It is cheap. About a hundreth of the price of joining a similar standing course in Dublin
3) They have told me that even as an Overseas Member, I can use Cruden bay as my Home Club, obtain a Handicap and return cards from Open Competitions abroad.

Does this last point sound strange to you?

Sorry for going off-topic but I have little to add, even though both the course and the architect of the title are favourites of mine.

[Brian_Ewen]

Ally
Whats the waiting list like for overseas members ?

Cost ?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Perhaps I will add some clarifications On-Topic this time...

'Design for Golf' was 1929, not 1952 as previously stated... It was simply a renamed reprint of 'The Architectural Side of Golf' as I understand it... Maybe someone could absolutely confirm that... I guess that there may have been new info added but I am fairly sure that there wasn't.

In that same book, Tom Simpson nominated the 6th at Cruden Bay as just missing out on his Ideal course... It was insinuated that it would be in his ideal 24 holes but not 18...

I also came across a reference to Simpson saying that the 1st, 8th and 18th were among 'the' best holes (not 'his' best holes) in the British Isles.... But this was from Jim Finnegan's book so it must be second hand at best (and obviously false going by what Simpson himself wrote in his own book)... Maybe Sean is reading from more original source material though....

[Neil_Crafter]

Ally
Design for Golf was a cheap "Sportsmans Book Club" reprint of the Architectural Side of Golf. I do not believe any of the text was altered.
Neil

[Thomas Dai]

Useful things search engines for (sometimes) finding old topics.

I'd heard that Simpson regarding the 8th and 18th at Cruden Bay as top rated holes (although I hadn't heard mention of his support for the 1st hole as well).

Now I've just been flicking through Dr MacK's book 'Spirit of St Andrews'. On page 178 of my paperback copy of Dr Mack's book is an interesting photo of the 8th hole at Cruden Bay, taken presumably well before WWII.

Not only does the photo show sheep grazing the course but the 8th hole green-site seems rather different to it's present position. Perhaps it's the angle the photo is taken from or maybe a shadow or photo reproduction issue but to me the green appears to be located higher up the hill and also seems to be angled differently as well.

Was the original 8th green ever sited higher up and differently angled? Was this maybe why Simpson rated the 8th hole so highly? Any thoughts?

As to the length and par of the hole, I seem to recall the hole being played as a par-3 from a front tee during the winter.

All the best

[Alister Matheson]

The original 8th Green was lost to a massive landslide about 40 years ago and rebuilt smaller and at a lower elevation .

Old Toms original 6th Green was heavily altered about 40 years ago by an old Keeper of the Greens ,

[Thomas Dai]

Alister,

Many thanks for this piece of the 8th green puzzle. Very interesting that the green was indeed lowered since Simpsons days.

With this prompting I now recall a very severe flash flood in the early 1980's that caused a lot of damage to the valley area of the 8th hole. Would this have been the same incident you refer to that caused the 8th green re-build or was the landslide you mention sometime before this as I don't really recall the 8th green being re-built but I do remember the building of various earthworks at the top end of the valley and the upgraded drainage within the valley floor area. Memories can fail though, so my recollections may be incorrect!

In addition, am I correct in thinking that the 10th green was also adjusted sometime around the late 80's-early 90's with the original front lower level of the old two level green being raised up to the same level as the back tier?

I also think that around the same time a new high level tee was built for the 5th hole as I recall that the previous tee, even the medal tee, was in the flat area just through the walkway from the 4th green and was so low that the tee shot on the 5th was actually played blind, with no view of the fairway from the tee at all (was there maybe a marker post?).

By the way, what was 6th green like before the re-build 40 yrs ago?

Cruden Bay, a really great place to play......except, that is, when the haar (a very heavy sea mist) suddenly rolls-in mid-round and you end up having to walk-in. The 9-hole St Olaf course is also wonderful and really shouldn't be missed by any visitor, with the 6th and 8th holes on the St Olaf being particularly fine holes.

All the best.

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