[Bill_McBride]

Tony Muldoon has proposed a round at Southerndown in Wales the day after the Buda Cup ends at Pennard.  Sounds great, I have signed up on behalf of Joe Buehler and me.

We are flying in to Gatwick, or perhaps Heathrow, on Thursday early morning of September 16th.  I propose a meeting of GCA afficianados at Painswick, including those who haven't played there yet but would like to, late that morning.   From Painswick, that lovely village in the Cotswolds, it's an easy 1.5 hour drive to Porthcawl for Friday's matches.

Please let me know who might be interested.  For those who haven't played Painswick, it is a treat and GCA.com's favorite short course.  Short but hilly.

I am also planning to book the Dormy House at Burnham and Berrow for Monday night, September 20, after the Southerndown round, with golf at B&B Tuesday before heading back to the airport for Wednesday a.m. departure.

Again, please advise if you are interested in this add on to the formal Buda rota.

[John Mayhugh]

Too many choices!  Mark Pearce had mentioned trying to play Kington on one day either before or after Buda.  I'm really intrigued with that course as well, but suspect it's too far out of the way for the sane people (excludes me) coming from London. 

[Bill_McBride]

Too many choices!  Mark Pearce had mentioned trying to play Kington on one day either before or after Buda.  I'm really intrigued with that course as well, but suspect it's too far out of the way for the sane people (excludes me) coming from London. 

One of the many good things about Painswick - plus adding to your GCA education! -- is that it's more or less en route to Wales from the London airports.

[Mark Pearce]

I am indeed thinking of arranging something at Kington, probably on the Thursday.  It may be out of the way for most, but it isn't a long detour for me, travelling from the North East.

[Ulrich Mayring]

What's the Doak number for Painswick?

Ulrich

[Bill_McBride]

What's the Doak number for Painswick?

Ulrich

You'll have to ask him, Ulrich!  He was there for the 2004 Buda Cup along with two of his associates, plus Robin Hiseman among practicing architects who attended.

If you're indirectly asking if it's worth seeing, oh my yes!

[Ulrich Mayring]

I'm not asking if it's worth seeing, basically I took that for granted after all the talk here. I was asking for the Doak number to find out whether the golf there has serious merits. This may seem a strange question, but do they have real greens?

Ulrich

[Bill_McBride]

I'm not asking if it's worth seeing, basically I took that for granted after all the talk here. I was asking for the Doak number to find out whether the golf there has serious merits. This may seem a strange question, but do they have real greens?

Ulrich

The greens are real if tiny.  The holes cross and overlap.  A lot of the course is worked out quarries.  There are two blind short iron par 3s where you assault the ramparts with hopeful intent.  

It's golf from the last century.  I don't imagine Tom Doak would give it much more than a 4 but it has tremendous merit as an examplar of hoiw much fun golf can be in only 4818 yards par 67.

Maybe Tom will chime in if he stumbles across this.

[Jason McNamara]

There's no listing for Painswick in the CG, but to note a possible analog, Doak gave Strathpeffer Spa a 2.

[Sean_A]

I'm not asking if it's worth seeing, basically I took that for granted after all the talk here. I was asking for the Doak number to find out whether the golf there has serious merits. This may seem a strange question, but do they have real greens?

Ulrich

Ulrich

There is little "wrong" with the design as its a dynamo of the bizarre and fun.  Unfortunately, the conditions of the course are among the worst I have ever experienced and this is over several visits in all seasons.  The course drains very poorly in winter or during times of significant rain - in essence its a mud heap.  The turf is dodgey.  The greens are rarely cut - rolling at about 4 or perhaps a bit less.  IMO, this seriously detracts from Painswick's merits.  All of this said, Painswick is the wonderful example of how courses and clubs should be - simple and without any pretences at all.

Painswick is the perfect example of why numbers don't work in rating a course.  For my part, I don't think the course is worth a trip of any length to see.  Though if you are in the immediate area during a dry spell, there isn't much else which is attractive so you may as well call on Painswick.

Ciao

[Dale Jackson]

Painswick is the perfect example of why numbers don't work in rating a course.  For my part, I don't think the course is worth a trip of any length to see.  Though if you are in the immediate area during a dry spell, there isn't much else which is attractive so you may as well call on Painswick.

Ciao
[/quote]

Which paradoxically makes all of us on this site sit up and drool! 

And here am I scheduled to fly back to Canada on the 15th, and calculating how to have that light delayed 5 or 6 days!

[Adrian_Stiff]

The course actually drains very well and the turf is predominantley fescue, what they are not allowed to use is chemicals so a lot of weeds get in and the mud is mainly wormcasts. In the winter they use mats on the tees it gets messy around them, but you never see pools of water in the pits and hollows. I think Painswick was described as a Doak * by someone.

[Sean_A]

The course actually drains very well and the turf is predominantley fescue, what they are not allowed to use is chemicals so a lot of weeds get in and the mud is mainly wormcasts. In the winter they use mats on the tees it gets messy around them, but you never see pools of water in the pits and hollows. I think Painswick was described as a Doak * by someone.

Adrian

Perhaps you haven't been to Painswick in quite some time.  I can assure you, the course plays VERY muddy in the winter and wet during rainy times.  That may be the fault of other things besides drainage, but it matters little when you have to pick and clean the ball after nearly every shot not on a green.  Nevermind what one's trousers look like after the game.   Luckily, I don't think anyone cares if one wears jeans out there.  Honesty Adrian, Painswick is one of the worst courses I have ever experienced in the winter.  It is in essence unplayable.  This came as a huge shock to me because there is a myth out there that the course plays well in winter.  My lesson learned - don't always believe the scuttlebutt.   

Ciao

[Ulrich Mayring]

This sounds a lot like my former home course, a place called Eschenrod in the middle of nowhere in Germany. They have an undriveable par 4 of 210 yards and other such quirky stuff. The starting hole is the most difficult par 4 I ever played, never parred it and rarely got a bogey. Also, they are not allowed to water or use chemicals or install drainage, because the area is a nature reserve. The weak point of Eschenrod is the greens, they are all round, small, flat and slow. They have one greenkeeper only and not a lot money, so that plays into it as well. But a very friendly club and you can turn up almost any time and play - a rarity in Germany, where you usually need to reserve tee times on week-ends.

Ulrich

[James Boon]

Painswick is certainly worth a visit! Here's a link to an old photo thread of mine...
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35805.0/

And Tom Doak did discuss what Doak scale it might have got...

I am glad I did not have to assign a Doak scale rating to this course, because it is so different than anything else I don't know where I would have started.  It might just have received an asterisk and no number!

Cheers,

James

[James Boon]

Okay, too much pre or post Buda golf to choose from!!! 

I've already got a golfing weekend the week before up in the north east, so not sure how much time off work (and away from my wife) I will be able to get away with, but so far everything seems tempting! Southerndown sounds good, as would a possible game at P&K.

As for none Welsh golf but still in the south west, I'm always happy to head back towards Painswick (and I certainly need to show Ben around there some time) and I had been thinking about organising something at Burnham & Berrow (as GCAs other member there), though its seems Bill has beaten me too it...

Only problem with B&B on Tue 21 is that I'll probably end up taking at least a week and a half off for golf which I think is pushing it?

Bill,
Would you consider playing B&B on Thurs 16 and Painswick the following Tue? If so, I'd probably skip Painswick this time but I'd look to sort out something for everyone at B&B on the Thurs? No worries if you can't, I'm more than happy to go with the flow...

Cheers,

James

[Mark Pearce]

James,

Where in the North East?

[Bill_McBride]

Okay, too much pre or post Buda golf to choose from!!! 

I've already got a golfing weekend the week before up in the north east, so not sure how much time off work (and away from my wife) I will be able to get away with, but so far everything seems tempting! Southerndown sounds good, as would a possible game at P&K.

As for none Welsh golf but still in the south west, I'm always happy to head back towards Painswick (and I certainly need to show Ben around there some time) and I had been thinking about organising something at Burnham & Berrow (as GCAs other member there), though its seems Bill has beaten me too it...

Only problem with B&B on Tue 21 is that I'll probably end up taking at least a week and a half off for golf which I think is pushing it?

Bill,
Would you consider playing B&B on Thurs 16 and Painswick the following Tue? If so, I'd probably skip Painswick this time but I'd look to sort out something for everyone at B&B on the Thurs? No worries if you can't, I'm more than happy to go with the flow...

Cheers,

James

That would be quite possible indeed.  I offered up Painswick as I know many are intrigued and not all have made the pilgrimage, which in this case isn't far off route.  The Buda is in September, which ought to be the best month to play Painswick as it would most likely be drier than in winter.  I've been there twice, once in May 2004, once in July 2005, and found it quite playable both times.  Perhaps one of the UK members who has been there in the past could check with the club and see what could be done about getting a special mowing of the greens!

As the esteemed Mr. Mayhugh said earlier in this thread, too many choices!

[Adrian_Stiff]

The course actually drains very well and the turf is predominantley fescue, what they are not allowed to use is chemicals so a lot of weeds get in and the mud is mainly wormcasts. In the winter they use mats on the tees it gets messy around them, but you never see pools of water in the pits and hollows. I think Painswick was described as a Doak * by someone.

Adrian

Perhaps you haven't been to Painswick in quite some time.  I can assure you, the course plays VERY muddy in the winter and wet during rainy times.  That may be the fault of other things besides drainage, but it matters little when you have to pick and clean the ball after nearly every shot not on a green.  Nevermind what one's trousers look like after the game.   Luckily, I don't think anyone cares if one wears jeans out there.  Honesty Adrian, Painswick is one of the worst courses I have ever experienced in the winter.  It is in essence unplayable.  This came as a huge shock to me because there is a myth out there that the course plays well in winter.  My lesson learned - don't always believe the scuttlebutt.   

Ciao

I have not been to Painswick for about 6 weeks but not had a good wak around for about 2 years though, I live 40 minutes away and we have some holiday cottages and Bed and breakfast fairly near. But the land itsef does drain very well and I have not even seen any boggy areas or pools of water in the hollows except around tees. The mud that gathers on the ball is wormcasts and around the tees is where the turf is just completey worn out. I think it must be worse now that it used to be because Painswick was always a course not to play in the summer if anything because the greens were too small and without water. James' recent pics are the best I have seen the course, but thats in the Spring. Painswick, Cleeve Cloud (which you should try) and Minchinhampton were always good dry winter courses and I have never heard other unfavourable winter condition reports. They dont have many greenstaff, two I think, they propably mow once a week in the winter, so you might have caught the greens 6 days old perhaps. A lot of people would probably deem Painswick unplayable, very loved on this site but most golfers give it the thumbs down. I can understand both sides of the coin.

[James Boon]

James,

Where in the North East?

Mark,

Check for a PM shortly.

Cheers,

James

[Sean_A]

The course actually drains very well and the turf is predominantley fescue, what they are not allowed to use is chemicals so a lot of weeds get in and the mud is mainly wormcasts. In the winter they use mats on the tees it gets messy around them, but you never see pools of water in the pits and hollows. I think Painswick was described as a Doak * by someone.

Adrian

Perhaps you haven't been to Painswick in quite some time.  I can assure you, the course plays VERY muddy in the winter and wet during rainy times.  That may be the fault of other things besides drainage, but it matters little when you have to pick and clean the ball after nearly every shot not on a green.  Nevermind what one's trousers look like after the game.   Luckily, I don't think anyone cares if one wears jeans out there.  Honesty Adrian, Painswick is one of the worst courses I have ever experienced in the winter.  It is in essence unplayable.  This came as a huge shock to me because there is a myth out there that the course plays well in winter.  My lesson learned - don't always believe the scuttlebutt.   

Ciao

I have not been to Painswick for about 6 weeks but not had a good wak around for about 2 years though, I live 40 minutes away and we have some holiday cottages and Bed and breakfast fairly near. But the land itsef does drain very well and I have not even seen any boggy areas or pools of water in the hollows except around tees. The mud that gathers on the ball is wormcasts and around the tees is where the turf is just completey worn out. I think it must be worse now that it used to be because Painswick was always a course not to play in the summer if anything because the greens were too small and without water. James' recent pics are the best I have seen the course, but thats in the Spring. Painswick, Cleeve Cloud (which you should try) and Minchinhampton were always good dry winter courses and I have never heard other unfavourable winter condition reports. They dont have many greenstaff, two I think, they propably mow once a week in the winter, so you might have caught the greens 6 days old perhaps. A lot of people would probably deem Painswick unplayable, very loved on this site but most golfers give it the thumbs down. I can understand both sides of the coin.

Adrian

We will have to agree to disagree then, but I will never return to Painswick in the winter.  IMO, the course was an absolute mess both times I saw it in the dead of winter and should have been closed.  Far more than tees were a problem - fairways were mucky, exit points from greens were dreadful and the mats were downright dangerous because they were so slippery.  Perhaps we have different standards, but if this is the case, your's must be exceptionally low because mine are certainly not high where maintenance is concerned - tee hee.

I was speaking with an ex-member a few weeks ago and he said the club is in dire straits.  Many folks have left in recent years over what started as a catering row and has spread to other issues.  Is the club turning a corner at all?

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Sean your misreading my post a bit, I am saying its not the inherent drainage thats causing the problem.. its wormcasts. Painswick has no money and is restricted from spraying chemicals because its on common land..hence the weeds and casts... The mats are awfull... Ive heard it has probems too, maybe rumour but you coud buy the club with the house for £500,000.

[Sean_A]

Sean your misreading my post a bit, I am saying its not the inherent drainage thats causing the problem.. its wormcasts. Painswick has no money and is restricted from spraying chemicals because its on common land..hence the weeds and casts... The mats are awfull... Ive heard it has probems too, maybe rumour but you coud buy the club with the house for £500,000.

Adrian

Buy the club?  The club doesn't own the land and the house isn't exactly a sight to behold - it needs work. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

I never said it owned the land. Many clubs dont own the land, but you dont get much of a golf course for 500k.

[Jason Topp]

Bill:

I would like to join whatever itinerary you come up with.

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