[Bill Brightly]

The best driveable Par 4 I know of is Tilly's "Five and Dime" at Ridgewood. It is driveable for many long hitting amateurs, but the last 30 yards is steeply uphill and gnarly rough. Left of the green is very high and slopes down to the green, you can possibly bounce it off the hill but it is pure luck. Right of the green is a bunker and then more steep slope downward. Here is the approach, certainly not open:



Here is a view from behind, and you can see that the green is about 25 feet wide:



I play this hole "sensibly" with a 210 yard tee shot and leave myself with a 60-80 yard wedge that I should never miss...except the narrowness of the green makes the cheeks tight, if you know what I mean...and even a 5 yard pull or push spells bogey or worse. The hole is maddening, and I am thrilled to walk away with a par.

I watched the pros play it at the Barclays, and a little less than half went for the green. Hardly anyone got it on, but the best miss was in the green side bunkers where most seemed to get it up and down. Many pros who layed up just dialed in the perfect wedge shot, but those who missed seemed to make bogeys.

Just a incredibly well conceived hole that has withstood the test of time.

[Brent Hutto]

Looks a lot like the 18th at Palmetto.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

The five & dime hole at Ridgewood is a terrific hole, one that probably has far more bogies and double bogies than it does birdies.

The drive is tempting.

But, drives that miss left or right, especially left, have their work cut out for them.

However, even tee shots hit to the ideal portion of the fairway don't have it easy.

That fairway slopes high left to low right, leaving a dicey little approach.

Drives hit into the rough also have bogie written on them.

Walking to the next tee with a par isn't a bad thing.

[Bill Brightly]

Pat,

You are 100% correct, and I did not even mention the green contour...Hit to the rear portion of the green when the pin is in the front half, and a two putt is a 50-50 proposition...

[Ronald Montesano]

I REMEMBER the Woolworth's hole from Ridgewood's Barclays telecast.  What a great treat for the viewing public.  I don't recall one single camera shot that showed the height of the approach-to-putting plateau, although might have guessed at it if one were paying attention.  I love a thin and angled green, I love uphill bunker shots and pitch shots, I love bisected putting surfaces, I love downhill lay-up drives, I think I want to marry this hole...is it available?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

The last time I playe the five and dime, I hit a perfect drive, just in the rough fronting the green, then I hit what I thought was a perfect L-Wedge right at the flag.  When I walked up to the green I was shocked to see my ball at the back of the green.
I had a 20 footer that I almost holed, but, had the putt rolled 3 more feet, I would have had another 20 footer coming back up the hill.

What's neat about the hole is that you go, in your mind, from birdie to bogey to birdie to bogey, hoping to settle for par, as you play every shot.

I always enjoy listening to "first timers" who look at the scorecard and declare that the hole is a birdie hole.
Usually, they have plenty of time on their hands on the next tee.

Unfortunately, the TV viewer doesn't get the feel for how high the green sits above the fairway and tee.
Nor do they get the feel for how canted the fairway falls from high left to low right.

[Bill Brightly]

Pat,

If your drive was "perfect"...why did it reach the rough? I hear wedges hold better from the fairway! Got a little greedy on the tee, eh?

And the putt down the hill is not just fast, it hooks cruelly to the left as it rolls past the pin, and sometimes off the green.

The cool thing about a hole like this is that it only happens once a round, requiring such precision with your wedge, and you don't get another crack at it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

I happen to like the uphill lie from the rough fronting the green.

Usually, when the ball rolls in there, you get a nice lie.

Lies from that fairway can be dicey.

Golfers will probably blade and chunk more shots from the fronting fairway then from the fronting rough.

I like the comfort factor with a slightly uphill lie from that rough, plus I only have a 20-30 yard shot, uphill from there.

That's my strategy and I'm sticking to it.

[John Moore II]

Yes, I think they should have an openning, but what does that mean? I don't recall the 17th at Oakmont looking like it had much of an opening from the tee. I have nothing against a driveable par 4 requiring a very precise shot in order to get the ball onto the green. It should be open enough to allow people to think about going for it, but not so open as to make going for the green (or automatically playing short) a near given every time. Thats a fine line to walk.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Moore,

There's an opening on # 17 at Oakmont, it's comprised of fairway and rough and is at an awkward angle.

You have to hit a perfectly aligned drive to take advantage of that opening.

You'd probably like the 1st and 2nd at NGLA better.

[John Moore II]

John Moore,

There's an opening on # 17 at Oakmont, it's comprised of fairway and rough and is at an awkward angle.

You have to hit a perfectly aligned drive to take advantage of that opening.

You'd probably like the 1st and 2nd at NGLA better.

Yes, I remember it was at an odd angle from the tee. Which was part of my point. It doesn't have much of an opening, and for all but the best of players aught to be a non-option, but its just enough to tempt the idiots of the world to go for it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Moore,

But, what's the downside in going for it ?

A greenside bunker shot ?

An approach from nearby rough ?

P.S.  I confess to being one of those idiots.

[John Moore II]

John Moore,

But, what's the downside in going for it ?

A greenside bunker shot ?

An approach from nearby rough ?

P.S.  I confess to being one of those idiots.

Well, I'd probably be one of those idiots myself. And it all depends on where the pin is, how deep the rough is, etc. I haven't played the hole. Whats harder, a bunker shot after you just shortsided yourself to the flag or a 50ish yard shot from back in the fairway? All those things come into play when deciding what to do off the tee.

[Patrick_Mucci]

John,

I've always had a fair degree of confidence in my bunker play, so, I prefer being in a greenside bunker rather than back, 50 yards in a fairway, and, just because you aim at a fairway doesn't mean you're going to hit it.  So the possibility of being in the rough 50 yards from the green is likely, and in that case, I'd definitely want to be in a greenside bunker where even a mediocre bunker shot will leave me a birdie putt.

[archie_struthers]

 


Hey all my Philly guys can chime in on this one for me.........LLanarch's  18th ...how many guys take a rip at it , obviously a couple of the members (eg Mike McDermott) can easily reach it but do take a rip???

It s about 320 slightly downhill and the clubhouse porch seems to hang right over the green...pretty cool old time Philly architecture both golf and clubhouse.  There's no bouncing it on here as you would have to fly it all the way surrounded by bunkers and gnarly rough over is no good  real severe back to front slope to green.

If you lay up 50 to 100 yards out it's real easy to spin it back off the green..or if you don't nip it send it deep , which can easily be bogey or worse ...pretty good short par four, even though it doesn't have a run on feature

[C. Squier]

John,

I've always had a fair degree of confidence in my bunker play, so, I prefer being in a greenside bunker rather than back, 50 yards in a fairway, and, just because you aim at a fairway doesn't mean you're going to hit it.  So the possibility of being in the rough 50 yards from the green is likely, and in that case, I'd definitely want to be in a greenside bunker where even a mediocre bunker shot will leave me a birdie putt.

Pat, I agree in general.  I also think driver is the obvious play on #17 at Oakmont.  Last thing I'd want is a 50 yd flip over Big Mouth for a 2nd shot.  Go long on the approach and you're just as dead.  I'd rather be dead in 1 shot instead of dead in 2. 

Jim Furyk, on the other hand, may feel differently.

[Tommy Williamsen]

A couple of thoughts.  I played a few courses this year that are drivable by longer players.  Twenty years ago they were not drivable but were just short par fours.  The green is surrounded by bunkers, the green is small and undulating.  I wonder how many "drivable" par fours were not drivable when they were built.

I do think that most drivable par fours should have some way of getting to the green.  The sixth hole at my club is drivable for longer hitters.  In front of the green is a large deep bunker.  But if you have the nerve you can hit the tee ball down the right side and a mound in the front and to the right of the green will kick the ball onto the green.  It think it is a wonderful par 3 & 1/2.

If you can't get on the green, is it really drivable?

[Bill Brightly]

Archie,

Since you mentioned the porch at the 18th at Lanarch, I am going to repeat one of the funniest things I've ever seen on a golf course.

I played there only once, about 25 years ago with a good friend who was a member. I also brought my college roommate, Stanbo, who hit a HUGE slice off the tee on 18. The member hit a hook, so he was a mile away from Stanbo, who proceeded to "eyeball" his approach to the green...He pured his iron, which flew the green and landed in the porch on a fly...

The ball went "bing-bing-bing" around that cement/brick cut-out patio, then came flying out. About 30 seconds later, the two REALLY old people come stumbling out, kind of bent over, dazed but not hurt...(luckily)

The member yells: "Stanbo, what did you hit?!!!" and Stanbo meekly replies: "5 iron?" and the memeber yells; ' 5 iron?!!! you were only 135 from the green"...


I was laughing so hard, tears in my eyes,I fell to my knees...I had hit a perfect drive, and was standing in the middle of the fairway with a wedge in my hand, the old people eventually saw me and figured I hit it, and started shaking the finger at me... Stanbo was SO far off the hole that they could not see him...Needless to say, Stanbo never got a return invite

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