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Matt_Cohn

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Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« on: December 04, 2009, 07:08:17 PM »
After 20 or 25 years, without too many alterations, Sherwood is still holding up pretty well. It's a par 72, with 5 par-5's, and not much over 7,000 yards, yet scoring averages are just slightly below par with nobody better than -9 after two rounds. That's with perfect weather and what looks to be reasonable rough.

I haven't played Sherwood, but it seems that despite the par-5's, there are actually a lot of holes that put a premium on accuracy and distance control rather than length, and that maybe the lack of 490 yard par-4's is more than offset by the demands for accuracy.

Furthermore, a lot of the holes are just plain interesting to watch.

Yeah?

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2009, 07:27:04 PM »
I played Sherwood about 6 or 7 years ago.  It was great fun.  The terrain is wonderful, the shots into the greens exacting and the greens interesting.  I can remember most of the holes still.  I haven't seen much of the front side on TV but it has some pretty special par threes and a great short par four.  I think the threes are the strength of the course.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Andy Troeger

Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2009, 07:29:19 PM »
I haven't seen any of the tournament, but I played the course in June. I thought it was fabulous--it should be a Top 100 Modern course IMO. It has some good variety, interesting hazards, and the par fives especially are very strategic. One does have to think their way around the course, although if one of those guys is on their game they could go low on the right day.

Cristian

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Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2009, 08:07:50 PM »
After 20 or 25 years, without too many alterations, Sherwood is still holding up pretty well. It's a par 72, with 5 par-5's, and not much over 7,000 yards, yet scoring averages are just slightly below par with nobody better than -9 after two rounds. That's with perfect weather and what looks to be reasonable rough.

I haven't played Sherwood, but it seems that despite the par-5's, there are actually a lot of holes that put a premium on accuracy and distance control rather than length, and that maybe the lack of 490 yard par-4's is more than offset by the demands for accuracy.

Furthermore, a lot of the holes are just plain interesting to watch.

Yeah?

Somehow I feel it always works to built 5, (rather than 4) par 5's and par 3's (assuming par 72), if you want to make the yards count; a par3 of 200 yds and a par 5 of 600 yds would be considered holes of considerable or at least mid length, whereas 2 400 yd par 4's would be considered to be shortish (certainly from the back tee's). In other words the more par 3's and par 5's a course has the longer it plays relative to its length, right?.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 08:10:01 PM by Cristian Willaert »

Garland Bayley

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Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2009, 08:16:01 PM »
Not changed? My understanding is that they change it all the time. Hole 3 went through a complete redo for this year.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David Stamm

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Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2009, 09:31:40 PM »
Not changed? My understanding is that they change it all the time. Hole 3 went through a complete redo for this year.


That is correct, Garland. I'll defer to Peter to give the specifics, but 3 used to have a huge bunker that started about 50-60 yards in front of the green and went all the way to the front. The green was changed as well, if memory serves.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2009, 11:32:35 PM »
For those who have played the golf course, be honest, how many WALKED the golf course ?


David Stamm

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Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2009, 11:45:41 PM »
For those who have played the golf course, be honest, how many WALKED the golf course ?




Patrick, I've played it three times and did not walk any of those times. While not unwalkable, it's not an easy one.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2009, 11:48:20 PM »
For those who have played the golf course, be honest, how many WALKED the golf course ?




Patrick, I've played it three times and did not walk any of those times. While not unwalkable, it's not an easy one.


David,

That was my point.
I think it's close to unwalkable from a practical point of view, especially when temperatures are up.

And, with a course that's essentially unwalkable, how could it pass the test of time in terms of greatness ?

Keith Phillips

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Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2009, 12:30:24 AM »
I played the course this summer for first time, and enjoyed it...i don't remember enough to comment on specifics, except that the twoswome in front of us was Craig T. Nelson and Kenny G...and they were walking!

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2009, 12:42:28 AM »
For those who have played the golf course, be honest, how many WALKED the golf course ?



I pretty much walk every course even those that demand I take a cart.  I will have my playing partner drive.  Sherwood is not an easy walk but I didn't mind it.  I wouldn't want to carry my bag though.  Given the terrain, I don't know how it could be "walker friendly."
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Kyle Henderson

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Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2009, 01:44:12 AM »
Avid, insistent walking proponents will obviously take the stance that Sherwood, simply because it is not easily walked, cannot be considered a great course. I don't know that I adhere to that philosophy – while I acknowledge the high degree of correlation, most rules have exceptions.

I consider myself lucky to have played Sherwood last spring. Mr. Wagner was and is the quintessential host and I think his leadership will allow the club to maximize its potential.
I found much to like about the course and I think it provides an excellent tournament venue in terms of the shot demands, excellent course conditioning, and adequate gallery space (although it may be hard to follow groups if they shuttle players ???). To score well, the course insists that one position their ball correctly with every shot, which is tough to do when you’re playing poorly in an alternate shot format… Otherwise, you’ll be contending with large oaks, rock-lined barrancas, and penal bunkering in your desired line of play. Yet, IMHO the course has few holes that I would consider standouts on the level of a truly elite golf course. It’s a very good track that I’d love to play again, and it’s probably better than 99% of the courses found in Southern CA., but I doubt it’s a top 100 contender nationwide.

I reserve the right revise that stance as I play more courses from the various magazine rankings.


"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Rob Rigg

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Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2009, 01:56:43 AM »
Interesting comment by Zach Johnson yesterday that the walk at Sherwood is similar to the walk at Kapalua.

I have not played Sherwood and will not play Kapalua until March (woohoo!) so cannot comment, but I did think it was interesting.

The course looks challenging on the tube, especially the par 3s?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2009, 06:45:36 AM »
Kyle,

Did you walk or ride ?

Keith,

But, did you walk or ride ?

And did Craig and Kenny have a cart ?

Andy Troeger

Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2009, 09:38:03 AM »
Patrick,
From my view from a cart (we walked Riviera in the afternoon after a morning round at Sherwood), I would argue that the course is more walkable than it appears on TV. The back nine (front for the tournament) is an easy walk which mitigates the hilly front nine that you see on TV. From memory the stretch from the 2nd fairway to the 5th tee is by far the toughest stretch in terms of terrain heading up the hill.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2009, 11:01:28 AM »
Patrick,

From my view from a cart (we walked Riviera in the afternoon after a morning round at Sherwood), I would argue that the course is more walkable than it appears on TV.

Andy,

I've played Sherwood, so my perspective is not from viewing it on TV.
It's a very difficult walking course.


The back nine (front for the tournament) is an easy walk which mitigates the hilly front nine that you see on TV.

You're kidding..... right ?
I'm not talking about the walks from tee to green, I'm talking about the walks from GREEN to TEE.


From memory the stretch from the 2nd fairway to the 5th tee is by far the toughest stretch in terms of terrain heading up the hill.


Sherwood will always hold a special place in golf for me, but, it's a difficult walking course.
What's interesting is that everyone saying it's not, rode in a cart.

I had a hole in one on the 10th (1st) hole, a dogleg, downhill, downwind par 4.

Lou_Duran

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Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2009, 11:27:00 AM »
Patrick Mucci,

I was under the impression that you didn't hit a long ball.  I didn't know it one could get the ball on the green with the tree, bunker, and rough.  Must have been one sharp hook at the end and a pin on the right.  Do you know if yours is the only hole-in-one there?  Show off!

Are you suggesting a course that can't be walked can't be great?  As the way how the game is played changes, don't you think that so does our definition of greatness?

Lastly, I've seen "G" and the hockey player out there a couple of times and they were riding, though they'd walk some while the caddies drove the cart.  A large majority of normal walkers wouldn't attempt carrying a second time. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2009, 12:56:02 PM »
Patrick Mucci,

I was under the impression that you didn't hit a long ball.  I didn't know it one could get the ball on the green with the tree, bunker, and rough.  Must have been one sharp hook at the end and a pin on the right.  

No, no hook involved.
I aimed right at the green, over the tree.
But, the wind was blowing hard.


Do you know if yours is the only hole-in-one there?  Show off!


I don't know


Are you suggesting a course that can't be walked can't be great?  

YES.

I can have a great collection of individual holes, but, I don't believe that the course, as a whole can be great if it can't be walked.


As the way how the game is played changes, don't you think that so does our definition of greatness?

Not to that degree.


Lastly, I've seen "G" and the hockey player out there a couple of times and they were riding, though they'd walk some while the caddies drove the cart.  A large majority of normal walkers wouldn't attempt carrying a second time.

In the summer, on hot, sunny days, Kenny usually carries a light umbrella to shield him.
Having the caddy drive the cart, with occassional walking is the most likely scenario.
 

Andy Troeger

Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2009, 12:57:31 PM »
Patrick,
Not kidding although on second thought 15-18 do make the back more than an "easy walk" as I originally stated. I agree with you that the course as a whole is not an easy walk, but living in the mountain time zone and having taken up hiking the last few years my definition of walkable terrain is probably a little skewed. In any case, we made the right decision to ride Sherwood and walk Riviera.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2009, 12:58:54 PM »
Patrick,
Not kidding although on second thought 15-18 do make the back more than an "easy walk" as I originally stated. I agree with you that the course as a whole is not an easy walk, but living in the mountain time zone and having taken up hiking the last few years my definition of walkable terrain is probably a little skewed. In any case, we made the right decision to ride Sherwood and walk Riviera.


Andy,

Which one would you prefer to play on a day in and day out basis ?



Kyle Henderson

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Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2009, 02:06:55 PM »
Kyle,

Did you walk or ride ?

Keith,

But, did you walk or ride ?

And did Craig and Kenny have a cart ?

No. I rode like eveyone else in my group, but I don't see the relevance of that fact to my comments.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2009, 02:10:16 PM »
Patrick Mucci,

I was under the impression that you didn't hit a long ball.  I didn't know it one could get the ball on the green with the tree, bunker, and rough.  Must have been one sharp hook at the end and a pin on the right.  Do you know if yours is the only hole-in-one there?  Show off!

Are you suggesting a course that can't be walked can't be great?  As the way how the game is played changes, don't you think that so does our definition of greatness?

Lastly, I've seen "G" and the hockey player out there a couple of times and they were riding, though they'd walk some while the caddies drove the cart.  A large majority of normal walkers wouldn't attempt carrying a second time. 

Lou, I saw a couple of KP players hit straight over that tree. None actually hit the green, but both had a chance. No hook required.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Peter Wagner

Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2009, 02:40:59 PM »
Hi Guys,

Sherwood is my home course, I've logged somewhere around 1000 rounds over the past 12 years, and I'm a Past-President of the club.  I was also President of the transition team in 2007 when the members took ownership of the club from the developer David Murdoch.  I could write pages about Sherwood but it would put you all to sleep but let me take a stab at commenting on some of the above.

Walking:  I walk every time I play Sherwood.  In fact I carry my bag every time and so do most of the guys I usually play with.  It's not nearly as difficult as it looks on TV except the walk from the 13th green to 14th tee - that's a steep hill especially when you carry.  During the Chevron we have 6 passenger carts to zip the players and caddies up the hill.  Outside of that one stretch the rest of the walk isn't difficult.  After carrying for the last 2 1/2 years it feels easy when I use a caddy.

When I was President we started a walking program and now I would estimate that 35% of our rounds are walking.  Our guys are liking the workout.

Changes:  We have made many small changes since taking over in 2007.  $300k in serious tree trimming, all bunkers rebuilt and lined with SportCrete, tee boxes rebuilt, substantial increase in aerification, better mowers, etc.  These small changes have made a big improvement in conditioning and playability.  

Larger changes include:

- bunkers added on 5th green, 7th fairway, 10th fairway, 13th green, and 16th fairway.
- we recently substantially reduced the front bunker on the 12th green.
- a very large oak died just left of the 13th green and it was replaced with a bunker.
- widened the 11th fairway.

Small crowds this week and overcast skies today makes the overall feel of this years' Chevron kind of flat.  Quite a change from the electric feel here on Monday.  


Lou_Duran

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Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time?
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2009, 04:47:27 PM »
Peter,

How many aces on #10 are you aware off?

Why are they starting on #10?  "Old" 18 is still 18, right?

Carrying your own bag?  I had you for a caddie golfer.


Bill_McBride

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Re: Has Sherwood CC stood the test of time? New
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2009, 05:02:10 PM »
Peter,

How many aces on #10 are you aware off?

Why are they starting on #10?  "Old" 18 is still 18, right?

Carrying your own bag?  I had you for a caddie golfer.



Carrying your own golf bag is the most intimate the game gets.  It's great having a caddie but more back to basics carrying your own on your home course.

One of the things I love about GCA events is seeing a foursome all carrying their bags heading down the fairway.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 11:41:11 PM by Bill_McBride »

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