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Mac Plumart

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"Feeling" a golf course
« on: December 02, 2009, 09:18:15 PM »
I am currently reading “The Spirit of St. Andrews” and in the General Principles chapter Mackenzie explains the following…

“When these elements obey the fundamental law of balance, of harmony and fine proportion, they give rise to what we call beauty.  This excellence of design is more felt than fully realized by the players, but nevertheless it is constantly exercising a subconscious influence upon him and in course of time he grows to admire such a course…”

My question is this…

When you play a great course can you feel it?  And if you feel it, when do you feel it?

I’ve heard people talk about the Old Course at St. Andrews.  Some people don’t like it at all.  In fact, I just read some reviews on “The Top 100 Golf Courses” website today that had multiple reviews where people said the course is a museum piece of living history, but it is not a great golf course.  But I’ve also heard very respected golf course critics say that after you’ve played it a few times, you begin to “get it”.  Could I say you begin to “feel” it?

I equate this type of commentary to my own experiences at East Lake.  The first time I played it was the third time I ever sat foot on a golf course and it was right after the Tour Championship.  The rough was grown out, the greens were hard and fast, and the bunkers were very fluffy. It was HARD to play!!!!  I hit 113 and didn’t see what people were so excited about.  There were not any great waterfalls, no extravagant elevations changes, no stunning mountain top views, etc.  It was just a golf course…kind of like a park…nothing special. 

However, since I’ve had the great pleasure to play it many, many times, I’ve started to feel it and it is becoming one of my favorite (if not my favorite) golf course.  I see the strategy on how to play each and every hole off the tee, on the approach, etc.  I know where you can challenge for birdie and what holes you have to play to avoid double bogey.  I see the beauty of the plain looking 12th hole, which I couldn’t see before.  I see its subtle brilliance and I can appreciate it now. 

Anyway, I feel that anyone who plays East Lake once will miss the “feeling” I am talking about and maybe this is like St. Andrews.

So, I re-iterate, When you play a great golf course can you feel it?  And if you feel it, when do you feel it?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Eric Smith

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2009, 10:57:45 PM »
Mac,

Your question is a good one and I don't know for sure if this is in line with what you're asking but I'll give it a shot. 

I have the same type of admiration for Harbour Town Golf Links.  I've played it a bunch over the past 20 years and it has been love - hate - love again for me.  Who doesn't love it the first time they play it, I mean it's Harbour Town!  But when I lived there and played it fairly regularly it was always one of the worst scoring days for me (and back then score meant everything to me as A. I was employed as a golf professional and B. We gambled quite a bit.)

Fast forward to now, I am still learning where best to hit the shots on certain holes (pulling them off is another story). The detractors go on and on about the effing trees at HT.  Granted, It's tough to hit so many bending shots, especially if you only know how to bend it one way, but this type of golf takes me back to the beginning of my golfing life when my grandpa would work with me showing me how to play cuts and draws and high shots and low shots. Of course we had balatas back then too...

Nowadays I try to crush every stinkin shot I'm presented with on a golf course. Swing out of my shoes, full everything. I have let my game deteriorate into this lazy way of playing and, quite frankly, it sucks!  However it has become increasingly important to me to try to fix this flaw in my approach and I hope to take what I have adopted over the last couple of years when I play Harbour Town and transfer this to my overall approach.

The breakthrough came for me when I began listening to some advice while playing from someone who knows that golf course just about as well as anyone and I adopted a new strategy - I began playing for the shots that the golf course asked me to hit rather than trying to fit my bomb and gouge game to it.  Eureka!

I may not score any better because I haven't found my cut shot to be anything to write home about yet, but I have made great strides in the department of course management as Harbour Town IMO is the ultimate school of business in this field of study.  I really do love being on that golf course now when I play it. 

So to your question Mac, "when do you feel it?", I'd say to you that I at least began to feel it when I took notice that the golf course was asking me to learn something I had forgotten a long time ago and I began to listen.

P.S. You post about your love of East Lake makes my not being able to make it down on Friday that much harder to take!

Adam Clayman

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2009, 12:37:10 AM »
Mac-

Quote
“When these elements obey the fundamental law of balance, of harmony and fine proportion, they give rise to what we call beauty.  This excellence of design is more felt than fully realized by the players, but nevertheless it is constantly exercising a subconscious influence upon him and in course of time he grows to admire such a course…”

-Kenzie's quote appears to speak to the art of creating a golf course. At first glance it appeared to speak to the natural type of golf most now associate with minimalism. But...  Even those that juxtapose nature can be excellent, if, they have the balance, harmony and proportion needed for beauty.

Back in his day, he didn't have the ample sample of courses that we have today. So many retched courses have been built (since he wrote that) which jar the eye, beat up on the psyche and invariably fail to hook anyone into the finer points of quality design. (That's why participation is down, in case you wanted to know the real skinny  ;) )

The question you asked about 'when' someone feels seems completely individualistic and ultimately moot as to when. It's not important when an individual feels it, as long as at sometime in their golfing life, they do. Most are probably like FL Wright used to describe as "asleep".

Just be glad you're not one of them.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2009, 04:03:42 AM »
My question is this…

When you play a great course can you feel it?  And if you feel it, when do you feel it?


Mac:

Before I play a great course, I'm very excited and have butterflies in my stomach. When I get onto the course, I usually calm down a bit, but I still have a feeling of pleasure and happiness. I don't know if I can feel a course, I just know if I feel excited or not. Do my feelings of happiness and pleasure come from my admiration for the course? I'm sure they do.

I guess what your talking about is a growing admiration for a course. I've only ever played one course where I really hated it at first. The course was Dunfanaghy in Donegal, Ireland. I thought it was a terrible course, but in hindsight, my opinions were ill-though. I probably was reacting to a bad score that I shot. Shortly afterwards, I started to appreciate the course more and more. It is now one of my favourite courses. It's less than 6000 yds and is a par 68, but I enjoy the challenges it presents. I love playing there.

Dónal.

Philippe Binette

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2009, 07:41:53 AM »
I often say: there are great courses... and then the rest.

You can almost feel a great course entering the parking lot... if the place is full of unorganized landscaping and plenty of petunias, it's not going to be that great !!!

There is a sense of cohesion and unity on great courses, a feeling that everything is there for a purpose and there's no useless element on the course. Elegance and simplicity can normally be felt right on the first tee.

Mac Plumart

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2009, 07:47:34 AM »
Oh man...I think you all three hit on some VERY important points!!!

To paraphrase the question asked, when does a great golf course cause you to "feel" it?

Eric said..."I'd say to you that I at least began to feel it when I took notice that the golf course was asking me to learn something I had forgotten a long time ago and I began to listen."

Adam said..."It's not important when an individual feels it, as long as at sometime in their golfing life, they do"

Donal said..."I guess what your talking about is a growing admiration for a course"

All of these are spot on and I really like Donal's point of a growing admiration.  That is what I am talking about.  I've played some golf courses that initially  I LOVED, but as time past I forget the holes and as the time passes my desire to play it again wanes and I can't really  remember why I loved it so much.  BUT other courses, I may or may not have liked it at first but as time passes I can remember specific holes, shots, challenges etc...I can't wait to play it again...every time I am asked to play it, I jump at the opportunity.  This growing admiration has to be the sign of geat course, right?

FYI...Philippe posted as I was typing, so I haven't had a chance toread it yet.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2009, 07:51:53 AM »
Philippe...

Elegance and simplicity, absolutely!!!

I call it subtle brilliance, but I think we are talking about the same thing.  That is why I specifically mentioned waterfalls, dramatic elevation changes, etc.  These grab your attention right away and used to cause me to say "Wow" this is awesome.  But now, I understand that these features don't neccessarily make a great course.

But if the course is subtle in its brilliance, you can continue to discover it over time.  And you can substitute elegant simplicity for my phrase just as easily. 

Thanks!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

TEPaul

Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2009, 08:08:50 AM »
“When these elements obey the fundamental law of balance, of harmony and fine proportion, they give rise to what we call beauty.  This excellence of design is more felt than fully realized by the players, but nevertheless it is constantly exercising a subconscious influence upon him and in course of time he grows to admire such a course…”


Mac:

You should first understand and appreciate WHEN Mackenzie wrote that. Next you need to understand and appreciate why he probably wrote that and even where that idea or phraseolgoy emanated from.

At this point, go to the "In My Opinion" section of this website and read Bob Crosby's incredibly good essay entitled "Joshua Crane" and you will begin to see what I mean.

Then go back to the book you're now reading "The Spirit of St. Andrews" and make careful note of what Mackenzie said in that book about how he and Max Behr teamed up against Crane (in what we now call the Behr-Mackenzie/Joshua Crane debate). And then you will realize that both of them argued against Crane's controversial formula for measuring and ranking golf courses and golf holes via a mathematical method by explaining to Crane that one cannot measure such things mathematically or scientifically because those kinds of thing are all about "FEELING"-----eg EMOTION----and one just cannot mathematically measure emotion and feeling.

I think Behr and Mackenzie had a pretty good point there which goes right to your thread subject here. But if that wasn't enough of an argument on their part, Crane then proceeded to say something about TOC for which Behr next totally nailed him (in a debating sense as well as in probably a real and true sense). I'll tell you why and how that happened later. It was really beautiful on Behr's part! I don't think even a highly intelligent, confident and opinionated man like Joshua Crane completely recovered from that one with his mathematical formula for measuring the quality of architecture, courses and holes intact!  ;)


Mac Plumart

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2009, 09:03:01 AM »
Tom...excellent!!

I have started to read on Behr and I will check out the piece that you suggest.  Furthermore, I do remember that part in the book where they talked about Crane.  However, I will re-read it.

I think it is correct...totally correct.  I rank the course I play and I use a mathematical formula.  However, as time has passed on this I have noticed that courses that rank lower on my list excited me to play them again and ones that rank higher...I can take or leave.  Why would that be?  Point blank...my formula is flawed!!!  I’ve adjusted it, but perhaps any formula used to rank or rate a golf course is flawed.

I remember reading about Herbert Warren Wind, I think it was, and he said that (I am paraphrasing here) people often describe golf holes (or courses) in correctly.  They talk about a hole is 420 yards long, doglegs right, has a green that slopes back to front that is guard by flanking traps…etc, etc. etc.  However, he says that what people really need to touch on is how the holes (or the course) makes them “feel”. 

I have played East Lake a lot and I think it is magical.  So, I think I can describe some of the holes in a way that might be appropriate to Mr. Wind.  Hole 18 makes me feel confused.  It is a par 3 that carries over a gully and some water, but the kicker is if you go long you chip back to a green that slopes back towards that slope and water.  I am confused because it is a between shot for me.  I could punch a driver, hit a smooth 3 wood or hit a ½ 3 iron.  However, whatever club I choose I always have doubts that it is the correct club…I am confused, I have doubts, I feel unsure.

17 always makes me feel scared.  As with many of the holes at East Lake, I always feel more secure the further I am away from the hole.  However, the closer I get on 17 the more scared, nervous, or frightened I get.  The green is protected by a huge bunker engulfing the entire front of the green.  You have to hit an aerial approach.  But the green is firm and fast and right behind it and to the left side is a severe slope and water.  You have to hit a precise and crisp shot or you are in trouble…and then you’ve got the confusion on the very next tee.

Anyway, I could go on and on…and I’ve got to mention simply walking around that property and seeing the clubhouse and Bobby Jones’ stuff also creates a ‘feeling”.

I’ll shut up now as I am off to play it with clients!!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Adam Clayman

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2009, 03:01:34 PM »
I'll tell you why and how that happened later.

Tom, Was it.... If you take the king's shilling, you do the king's bidding ?

If not, Please share?

Mac, Since you've admitted that you use a formula and that it has failed, I would suggest bagging the whole formula concept, rather than waste time trying to tweak yours.

As you expand your experiences, try to examine the situations (variables that make them up) that make you feel warm and fuzzy. This notion of fear and uneasiness is not what I would call great architecture.  Sounds more like architorture.

What I think you'll find is that the courses that most closely resemble a natural environment will be the ones that illicit the most warm and fuzzies. Bill Coore is exceptional at this. As was George Thomas. But even courses like Merion, that can illicit some dread, do so in a way that is balanced, with options to avoid the dread.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Anthony Gray

Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2009, 03:05:41 PM »


  It is what makes Cruden Bay so great.

  Anthony


Scott Szabo

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2009, 03:35:09 PM »
The "feel" of Sand Hills is like no other.  It's hard to put it into words, but this is the only course I've ever set foot on that's made me feel this way.  It's almost like it has a soul unto its own, if that makes any sense at all.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Mac Plumart

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2009, 06:32:03 PM »
Oh Scott, yes sir...that makes a ton of sense to me...a ton!!!

Adam...on the formula I think you are correct.

Anthony...Cruden Bay.  I have read about it and hope to play it one day.  I have heard others say that it is wonderful to play.  From reading this post and some of the others you've written, I  get the feeling you like it a little...just a little bit.  But seriously, isn't it wonderful to have a golf course you love so much?

As an FYI... I played East Lake today.  East Lake is walking only, unless you've been declared physically handicapped and have documentation to prove it.  Therefore, I usually ride in a cart there...I've walked it twice...both were brutally painful for me.  However, today with all the rain Atlanta has gotten over the last few days/weeks they allowed no one to ride at cart.  I was faced with a choice...don't play or walk.  I decided to give it my best shot and walk.  Long story short...I DID IT!!!!!  The pain was very managable.  I took my time on the uphills, I got the caddies to help me in and out of traps, and I freakin' did it!!!!!  Oh how wonderful!!!!  How wonderful....maybe I have started a new chapter in my game and my life!!!!!  I told you East Lake is magical!!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

JC Jones

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2009, 07:15:04 PM »
Mac,

Your question is a good one and I don't know for sure if this is in line with what you're asking but I'll give it a shot. 

I have the same type of admiration for Harbour Town Golf Links.  I've played it a bunch over the past 20 years and it has been love - hate - love again for me.  Who doesn't love it the first time they play it, I mean it's Harbour Town!  But when I lived there and played it fairly regularly it was always one of the worst scoring days for me (and back then score meant everything to me as A. I was employed as a golf professional and B. We gambled quite a bit.)


You used to be a pro?  And we gave you how many strokes at Dixie Cup!!  Damn southerners. >:( ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mac Plumart

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2009, 10:04:32 PM »
Adam...

I've been thinking about your last post regarding architorture.  I think if the entire course has an overwhelming feeling of fear or nervousness, then I agree with you.  However, a truly great course has to conjure up a wide variety of feeling/emotions.  And fear has to be one of those.

Continuing with my East Lake example. 

Fear/nervousness is present on the tee shot of 6 as it is an island green, the second shot on 9 as you have to carry a pond, and the approach on 17.  However, the stunning beauty of the holes of 6, 9 and 17 also stir up emotions...this dichotomy is interesting.

The feeling of being able to let it all hang out on a booming drive on 5 is a liberating feeling.  If you can hit/reach the green on 7, that feeling is exhilarting and prideful.  As is 8. 

The carry over water on 10 is fairly easy, but nevertheless it is exhilirating to pull it off. 

I won't desribe every hole's feeling...but there is that range of fear, confusion, exhiliration, pride, liberation, the need for precision, power, etc.

I think that is what great architecture is all about.


Thoughts?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Rob Rigg

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2009, 10:59:30 PM »
Mac,

I think we tend to have a preconceived notion of greatness when we are going to play certain courses.

But if you put that aside, and let the nervousness subside, on the first tee then you can start with somewhat of a blank slate and just focus on the experience.

I remember trying to do this at Pac Dunes, and it was amazing. Trying to temper my excitement on the first tee was a challenge, but once on to the second I had settled down enough to try and look at the course objectively. But by the third tee I had that buzz back of total excitement that is unavoidable on a course with that character and intrigue.

Everything about Pac Dunes "worked" together in symmetrical harmony and that is what made it great for me. The routing was a wonderful mix of steadiness, building excitement and crescendos. That is what makes it great - you can "feel" the power of the course for the entire round.

At solid, good, mediocre, etc. courses - you may get a glimpse or "feeling" of overall greatness but it comes and goes throughout the round.

Some courses elicit this feeling during the first round, while others take time, but it is unique to those truly "special" venues.

Adam Clayman

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2009, 10:58:25 AM »
Mac,
 Interesting take on feelings (whoa whoa whoa)

On the great courses I have been fortunate to play, the fear you are describing (at East Lake) is more akin to respect. i.e. Do you fear the water on 16 and 17 at CPC? I didn't, but I did respect it. Do you fear the water on #8 at Pebble Beach? Not the water as much as the natural hazard. In both cases the architecture allowed for alternative lines (and distances) of play. The player has to respect the hazard and allow for the conditions to play properly so they can feel prideful. (isn't that a sin?) Or does it cometh before the fall?)

I believe this is why repetitive water hazards (of the pond variety) are considered weak design elements. The do or die nature, without an option to play safely away, may get some players juices flowing, but apparently they are the wrong juices, for the majority.   
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mac Plumart

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2009, 11:15:25 AM »
Rob...

I think you make a great point.  Many times that "feeling" can be created by the golfer himself in anticpation of playing a great course.  Which is why I like the way Donal described a growing feeling of appreciation of a course.  Then you know it is great, right?

Adam...

I think you are correct.  What word we choose to desribe a feeling or emotion can be misleading.  One man may say fear the other respect...but either way it causes you to be aware of your feelings.

Building on this and another point you made...

Here is a picture of East Lake's par 5 ninth.  After your tee shot, which ideally will be a booming draw...you are faced with this...



Your fear/respect of the water might compel you to play around it to the left which Ross/Jones make available or you can try to carry it.


Also here is the par 3 4th at the Pete Dye GOlf Club of WV.  Again, you can carry the water and go for the green or if your fear/respect of the water gets the best of you you can play to the right...but watch the trap out there.



Both are great holes in my mind as they give options and risk/reward choices without making anyone hit a shot they don't have in their bag.

Thoughts?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Adam Clayman

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2009, 11:35:14 AM »
I'm familiar with Pete's use of water similar to the picture above. He's done it many times on many courses. I often feel dread after playing one of those type holes. I much prefer holes where the water hazard is a riparian, or coastal.

Last year I fortunate enough to hear Jim Urbina articulate what is wrong with the typical pond hole. He intimated it was the zero plane that failed to work aesthetically. I agree with that.

Great is another term that needs to be carefully considered.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mac Plumart

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2009, 02:13:22 PM »
Adam…I’ve done a lot of thinking about your comment concerning the use of the word “great”.  I agree that it needs to be used appropriately.  Along these lines, I have thought about when it is appropriate to call a hole “great”.  If we stick with the “feel” aspect that this thread centers on, I could simply say I “felt” they were great and be completely justified.  But I think that is too easy and maybe a cop-out answer.  So, I dug into Mackenzie’s “Golf Architecture” book and pulled out 16 points that he used to describe an “ideal” golf hole.

Here they are…

1.   The hole needs to be difficult.
2.   The hole can not have long grass,
3.   The hole can not have narrow fairways,
4.   The hole can not have small greens.
5.   The hole must not have blind greens,
6.   The hole must not have blind bunkers,
7.   The hole must not have blind approaches.
8.   The hole needs to have heroic risk/reward options.
9.   The surface of the green needs to be visible.
10.   The approach to the green needs to be visible.
11.   The turf should be perfect.
12.   The approach should have the same consistency as the green.
13.   A long and accurate drive should provide an advantage to the player.
14.   An accurate short drive should provide an advantage relative to a long but inaccurate drive.
15.   The hole should have multiple avenues of approach.
16.   The hole should be playable to the high handicapper, but interesting to the low handicapper.


I feel that both #9 on East Lake and #4 on PDGC of WV fit the bill for items 1-4, but item 5 would exclude East Lake’s 9th hole.  As here is a photo of what the view from the tee box looks like.  You can’t see the green at all. 




However if I play the hole with a scratch golfer, or thereabouts, this is one of their favorite holes, perhaps this is due in large part to item #1 on Mackenzie’s list.  The hole is difficult.  The ideal tee shot would be about 300 yards long with a solid draw to it.  This will put you on the flat portion of the fairway with very little trouble or “fear” coming from the water carry.  If you don’t do that, you will have a long approach shot from a downhill lie.  Not fun for most of us.

However, moving on down the list…

I feel that both holes fulfill the remainder of the Mackenzie’s requirements.  Especially, items 8…risk/reward options, 15…multiple avenues of approach, and 16…playable for the high handicapper and interesting for the low handicapper.


So, am I in error calling these holes, great golf holes?  If so, why?  If you say East Lake’s #9 is not great due to the fact the green can not be seen from the tee, why do low handicappers love it so much?

Anyway if you (or anyone else) have the time to discuss, I would love to listen.

Thanks…and again…great point Adam!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mac Plumart

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2009, 10:26:28 PM »
I am continuing through "The Spirit of St. Andrews" and Dr. Mackenzie is discussing the finishing sequence of holes on a course.

He describes the finishing four holes at Cypress Point as "the most exacting and terrifying finish of any course I know"

again "feeling" is referenced in the context of a great course.  In this case it is the "terrifying" final holes at Cypress Point.

I find that interesting.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Adam Clayman

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Re: "Feeling" a golf course
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2009, 11:32:54 PM »
Great points, The term difficult is most interesting. Likely at the root of the essence of the sport. However, I am recalling feeling somewhat differently about the final four at CPC. Terrifying was not my emotional state the day I played there, in the final round of a competition, on Jan. 6th 2000, with a hand injury sustained the prior day. Up until 20 mins. before teeing off I was convinced I could not swing a club. When a asked my caddy if I could get away with only 200 yards off the tee, he replied with a resounding "all day long". And yes the comp was from the tips. So, as a 14 handicap at that time, I'm assuming the sport has changed significantly enough over the years to make some of what the good doctor wrote obsolete.

As for low cappers, well... I often have issues with their opinions on what constitutes quality. Simply asking them why, will often illuminate their subjectivity as the underlying justification, and, not the study of GCA as an art, or a science.



"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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