[TEPaul]

"However, he seemed to avoid any kind of personal relationship with me that might compromise his ability to objectively evaluate or comment on my work. At least that was my perception; maybe he just didn’t like talking to me. But, he seemed to try hard to avoid any perception that his favorable comments might be interpreted as being from that of a close friend or ally."


Kelly:

That may be true. Mike Cirba is a very nice guy, maybe too nice for some of the rough and tumble of this stuff. But you need not worry about that with me. As you know, I think very highly of your attitude and your sort of self-admitted "searching" approach to your golf architecture and I would encourage that we have a great personal relationship too but if, because of that, you think I would never tell you, and to your face, you're full of shit about something if I think you are----well then, just watch me!  

[Andrew Mitchell]

Kelly
I enjoyed our game together at Muirfield back in 2007.  I think you had just come from St Andrews.  What inspiration have you drawn from the classic courses of Scotland and how have you managed to apply that subsequently?

[Mark Pearce]

Kelly,

As your partner in the afternoon foursomes at Muirfield back in 2007, I like to feel I helped you interact with architecture that you would not otherwise have encountered!

Have you ever worked outside of North and South America?  Is that something you see yourself doing at any time?  Having experienced links golf and taken lessons from it and used them in your work, what do you feel the most significant features of links golf are and is there resistance to your introduction of them in the US market?

[Michael Blake]

Kelly,

Obviously, von Hagge was an influence as your mentor.  As as result, how difficult is it to show restraint when desinging.  How much is he 'in your head' during your creative process at the desk and in the field?

[Sean_A]

Kelly

Cheers.  A few more questions about the 11th.

1. Did you have to build the hill blocking the view of the green from the left fairway? 

2. What gave you the idea to build a front to back green?  This is perhaps my favourite green on the course.

Now, onto the 9 & 18th.  If you had to do it again, would you have shaped the holes differently?  Maybe toned down a bit?

It seems to me that you have created an incredible set of greens which are VERY varied.  Did you purposely have this in mind.  Were there any greens you used as models for Lederach?

Ciao

Sean,

I wanted to build the hill on hole #11 that would block a view of the green from certain parts of the fairway. As mentioned the green is visible from the beginning of the fairway and from the area near the end of the fairway. The existing land for the green site pitched away from the approach shot and pitched down to the right. That basically is what the green site does. There are other greens that do the same, the 12th green falls away from the approach, large portions of the 16th green, the 8th green, and the 10th green.

The original 18th which is now numbered the 9th is overshaped, but in large part due to my desire to take away the back ground view which is parking lot and clubhouse. Once the edge of the hole was established in this way it carried through to the fairway.

I think in general my approach to the greens at Lederach was greatly influenced by what I enjoyed in Scotland. There are isolated features that are shadows of what I saw there. The 8th green with the bunker left and the steep front is a shadow the Road Hole green. The 17th green in the approach is a mere shadow of the approach to the 2nd green at TOC. The experience in Scotland gave me the confidence to produce what I enjoyed playing. In some ways I felt this was being true to myself, rather than giving what I thought others might like, or what I thought would be acceptable.




Hole 8 Green Lederach


Hole 8 Green Lederach


Hole 17 Green Lederach

Kelly

Cheers! I figured some of this stuff couldn't just be grabbed from nowhere.  I also told my mate Greg, that I bet you were trying to refocus the 9th toward the course - away from the lot and house. 

How bout the 16th?  That is a hole with a really wild green.  Where did the idea for this come from?  Also, why is there no apron for the kick up tee shot?  If memory serves, the hole slides away from the tee, but rough comes almost right against the green.  I was surprised you didn't leave an apron to bounce tee shots in for the front hole locations.

Ciao

[Brian Phillips]

I am sure someone can put copper nails in them for you.

[Dan Boerger]

Kelly - Thanks for your insight and comments. I'm a very average golfer these days, and that hole without the tree hazard in the fairway narrows up plenty for me. I would much prefer your original vision.

[Matt_Ward]

Kelly:

One of the better holes I have enjoyed playing at Morgan Hill is the uphill dog-leg right par-5 5th.

The usage of the chain reaction bunker which splits the forward and rear areas of the fairway is well done ... ditto for the green itself.

really makes the player have to hit the tee shot correctly or they face the risk of having to lay-up before it.

One of the real strengths of Morgan Hill is the par-5 holes -- they allow for temptation and the big play but will bite back when you don't deliver.

The par-5 13th is equally a fine hole.

[Tim McManus]

Hi Kelly,

I am a member of Laurel Links and throughly enjoy the challenges it presents.  The left sides of greens 1 & 10 are large non-pinnable surfaces.  I think both greens still offer several interesting pin placements, but the inability to pin the left side of these greens is a frequent complaint from membership.  Was it your intent for these areas not to be pinnable?  Do you think they could be with slower green speeds?  Any advice on how to approach the 7th green  ? 

Tim

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

I've played your course twice and have to wonder how the members feel if green speeds get to 10 or more on the stimp.

Plenty of areas of certain holes are borderline and even outright unfair in spots.

what's your take on how things have progressed since opening a few years back.

thanks ...

[Garland Bayley]

Hi Kelly,

Have you bid any projects on the left coast? Some of us that don't travel so much would love to get a chance to play your stuff.

[Tim McManus]

i think the greens are at their best at around 10 and that is about the average during the season.  The superintendant Bill Shuford's priority is to produce a firm, smooth and disease free surface throughout the season; he varies the cutting height and irrigation accordingly and does not worry too much if that causes the green speeds to vary week to week.  there are times in the summer when the speeds get close to 13 and some greens become extremely challenging, and pace of play suffers.  But the membership mostly accepts / takes pride in the challenge.  It is a second club for many, and they appreciate the change of pace from their other clubs.  Personally, I love how it never bores you.  The complaints about the difficulty of the greens tend to come mainly from lower handicaps not used to three putting ...

changes over the years have focused on improving the chance of recovery / finding your ball when miss the fairway; and they have helped improve the pace of play without changing the challenges presented by the fiairway bunkering and greens.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Being in Naples as well I am curious to hear more about The Hideout like JC and Dan were. Both times I played out there I've lamented the trees on #9 and even made comments as to those would be the only things I'd change, so I am happy to hear that you would too!

1) Do you have a favorite hole and or a hole you consider the best architecturally that you designed at The Hideout?

Personally I especially like #2 and the big sandy ridge that bisects the fairway and really challenges where to put the second shot. (Especially for those that have the length to go for it.

2) Other than replacing the trees on #9 and bringing the old #14 green back is there anything else you wanted to do but didn't or would change now?

3) I know the members have a scorecard that starts the round out in the "Woodshed" or holes 13-18 (A very fun 6 holes I might add). Can you talk more about the routing including the non-retuning front-9 and if there were any other plans/variations based on the course as it's built today?

[JC Jones]

Kelly,

Thanks for the info about the Hideout and thanks for what more you provide.

Should you find yourself in Naples, the beer is on me.

[Lou_Duran]

KBM,

What courses did you work on for BvH?

Of his courses, which are your favorites?

Do you consider his use of mounds to create interesting shadows an integral part of gca, or more artistic in the sense of "eye candy"?

Are you at liberty to discuss the relative roles of BvH and Bruce Devlin in their practice?

In a nutshell, what are the two or three things you try to accomplish in your design work?

Lou,

With von Hagge, I worked on Arrowwood in Westchester County, NY; Bay Colony and Pelican Marsh in Naples; The Cliffs near Ft. Worth; Las Misiones, Monterrey, Mexico; Marina Ixtapa, Ixtapa, Mexico; Tres Vidas, Acapulco, Mexico; El Campanario, Queretaro, Mexico; Tascosa CC Amarillo, Texas; and renovations at Boca Rio, Boca Raton, Florida; Doral, Miami; and Cranden Park, Key Biscayne.  Of all of the von Hagge courses I have played my favorites are Crown Colony and the old TPC course at the Woodlands.

The mounds and shadow work are definitely the artistic part of his work. It is an integral part of his philosophy. In my time at von Hagge while Bruce was there, Bruce had virtually no design input which was his choice.

In a nutshell, I try to produce a golf course that I will like to play.

KBM,

For whatever reason, I thought BvH was a much older man.  He still has quite a stylish image.

I've played The Cliffs which I think is a lost opportunity (too punitivie) on a potentially great site, and Cranden which has some good golf on an indifferent site.  Crown Colony and Walden are probably my favorite Devlin/von Hagge courses, though I too think highly of the old TPC at the Woodlands.  Northgate and Playacar are not high on my list.

I guess I don't get the shadows thing, though it is mesmerizing at the right time in the evening and possibly early morning.  Is it a form of camouflage design or just for looks?

I am surprised about Devlin because it seems I like a number of courses bearing both of their names, and less so when they're only accredited to BvH.  Perhaps it has to do with the associates assigned to those courses.

Lastly, what do you do when the client's desires aren't congruent with what you like to play?  Or are you a bit like me and have a wide range of things you like?

[astavrides]

I'd like to pass along a message from Mike Cirba:

"Kelly and I have had our differences over the past few years, but I've played a lot of courses and I'd just like to contribute two thoughts;
 
1) I never thought anyone could build a goood golf course on a piece of land as severely sloped as Morgan Hill, and
 
2) Lederach is the most daring and boldest golf course architecture I've seen built in the past 20 years.
 
If this freaking recession puts artists like KBM out of the game, then golf really is the loser.
 
Thanks for letting me add 2 cents to this thread."

Frankly, I don’t remember having differences with Mike Cirba, and I did not know he no longer participates here, which I assume because he is passing messages. I think highly of Mike for this reason. He reached out at times like in the beginning telling me of the Hawk Pointe thread which led me here. However, he seemed to avoid any kind of personal relationship with me that might compromise his ability to objectively evaluate or comment on my work. At least that was my perception; maybe he just didn’t like talking to me. But, he seemed to try hard to avoid any perception that his favorable comments might be interpreted as being from that of a close friend or ally.

With regard for these perilous times, there is much suffering out there, and some “lucky” ones will survive and many will not. Architects are scouring every corner of the earth to find work. We are no different than the 17% or 20% that are unemployed in this country, but hopefully this period reshapes the country and our business in a positive way and hopefully the “sustainable” approach that is infusing the business world will find a clear voice in our industry, which can have a dramatic difference in the way golf will look for future players.

Now these are some words I can relate to and agree with, Kelly!  By the way, I enjoy a lot about your design work.

[Lou_Duran]

KBM,

Can you address the shadows aspect of BvM's design?  Camouflage or just artisitc?  Form or function?  BTW, I don't have a problem at all with beauty for its own sake, i.e. not every feature has to serve a direct playing function.

Are there some specific things that you learned from Mr. vonHagge- features, processes, or approaches- that you find particularly useful in your practice?

[JMEvensky]

Lastly, what do you do when the client's desires aren't congruent with what you like to play?  Or are you a bit like me and have a wide range of things you like?

Further, I find that many people do not understand until they see it in real life in the field. You can argue a concept laid out in words or on a plan but 9.9 times out of 10 you must assume that their lack of agreement has more to do with their inability to visualize what you are describing.

I'd fall in this camp.I'm unable to visualize any kind of finished project from a set of plans.But,if you told me that you were going to build a 4-par that had a fairway shaped as # 14 at X,with bunkers that looked like #12 at Y,and a green kind of like #10 at Z,I'd probably understand.

Do clients try to visualize your prospective designs in terms of other holes/courses that they're familiar with?And,is that necessarily a good thing?

BTW-from a fellow Longhorn,thanks for taking the time to answer questions.

[Bruce Katona]

Kelly:
1. "Hook-em Horns" - The DD (darling daughter - age 12) has a burnt orange hoodie she lives in this time of year.  Bugs her   grandfather though, as he is an SMU grad from back in the days of Doak Walker.  Granddad is not a big Longhorn fan.
2. The in-laws live in Houston so I've played the old Woodlands course and Walden I believe.
3. Hawke Point is a very enjoyable course to play.
4. Any pix of Mr. Lapper's girls in burnt orange for you to post?

[Lou_Duran]

KBM,

Your sketches are fine.  Seems like you were an apt student.  And no, I didn't know that BvM was a graduate of the Naval Academy.  My friend Scott Smith, a six+ time club champion at Northgate, has spoken to Bob on several occasions and thinks highly of him.

Incidentally, my son received a conditional superintendent's appointment to the USNA (on re-taking the physical exam that he easily passed during their scientific summer camp that they misplaced) and a congressional appointment to the USAFA.  He chose an ROTC scholarship to UT @ Austin, no doubt in part because that is where his girlfriend was going.  He didn't commit to the ROTC upon completion of his first year, but got a BBA in the Business Honors program and he seems to be doing okay.  My daughter followed suit and graduated from UT earlier this year with a BBA as well.  She lives now in D.C., but is in town to go root the Longhorns at the new Cowboys stadium in Arlington this weekend.  She and her brother have booked flights to CA for the BCS championship, so, go Longhorns!

I am assuming that the KBM/Weed par three is relatively short, and if so, I much prefer your rendition.  I have only played a couple of Weed's original work (Spanish Oaks, TPC-Tampa) and his partial Brooksville CC renovation, but think highly of his efforts there.  You should feel complimented that he copied your hole, though the artistry appears to be missing.

BTW, the residential intrusion at Crown Colony is now more jarring than at Walden.  At CC, a course with very solid bones, you sometimes feel that you're teeing off from somebody's back porch.  The property lines get pretty close in spots, though the landing areas are sufficiently roomy.  I didn't sense that at Walden, but perhaps that has something to do with having played CC early on before much of the surrounding real estate had been developed.

[George Pazin]

Terrific give and take on this thread, thanks to everyone involved. I hope it encourages more architects to join in the fun.

[Garland Bayley]

Hi Kelly,

Have you been to Bandon?

Have you had an opportunity to a links on an ocean front property such as Bandon?

What are your priorities for such a course?

Was the 11th at Lederach a follow on to the 18th at The Hideout?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kelly,

Is it true you are warped just enough to demand to see pictures of little children dressed in Longhorn-Orange garb as a means of payment for a losing wager???
 

Steve,

The world would be a better place if more children wore Burnt Orange.
It pains me to see little kids in colors like Notre Dame, they seem unsure of themselves, bitter, constantly make excuses, overall just unhappy and unstable.

Steve Lapper, how can you trust a man who attended a University that deliberately chose a color for their football jerseys that would match the color of the football so that their opponents would have a harder time seeing the ball when it was handed off to a running back because the ball and the jersey were the exact same color ?

It doesn't get more devious than that.

No such chicanery with those Blue and Gold colors.

The other thing that surprises me, even amazes me, is that someone from UT can actually spell "Notre Dame".
He must have learned that at Texas A&M.

What surprises me is that there isn't more discussion on Laurel Links, the golf course, individual holes and the interesting putting surfaces that Kelly created.

It's a golf course that's fun to play, one that also enjoys the benefits of the wind.

[Bruce Katona]

When I played walden, I was the guest of Sid Pritchard, who might have been either tje contractor or shaper for you.  I go remember the holes by the lake.....only area on the whole course where i could find any breath of air.

[mike_malone]

 When I said you don't think things out I meant it in the nicest possible way

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()