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Ran Morrissett

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Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« on: May 12, 2003, 05:18:50 PM »
Have a read of Tom MacWood's latest contribution to this site and see what you think.

Has anyone even heard of the existence of such a list?!  I sure haven't but for those who think the primary benefit of any course ranking is to guide people in the direction of enticing golf, then this one is very tough to beat. It will be interesting to compare it when GOLF's comes out in a few months.

I just  received it from Tom and there is much to digest: the tears that the # of  English heath/South African courses will bring to Paul Turner/Bob Huntley's eyes, Timber Point (and Yale for that matter) appreciably ahead of Lido, Oakland Hills strong showing pre-RTJ, The Knoll and Hollywood being the other New Jersey courses as opposed to Baltusrol and Plainfield, the great showing of Prestwick, North Berwick, Brancaster and especially Westward Ho! (Fowler's magical Eastward Ho! also makes it :D ), Canada/Thompson's strong showing, etc.

Many things to look at here including the courses that are absent, such as Royal Dornoch which didn't evolve into the course that we know today until later.

Another original from Tom MacWood and GCA.com is very lucky when he chooses to display his research on this site.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2003, 05:39:55 PM »
Tom.

What a splendid thread. Thank you for thr time and efort.

Ticking of the names of the list reminds me, that there was indeed, a golden era of course construction.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

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Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2003, 07:20:02 PM »
Tom:

Great article!

I feel fortunate to have played 44 of the courses that made your list.

However, I do have one question - what is "23. Laksers, Illinois"?  I am unfamiliar with this one....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

eckstein

Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2003, 07:31:43 PM »
Very cool.

Paul
Laskers is in Lake Forest. What are the 44 courses you've played?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2003, 07:50:06 PM »
Great find Tom.

I find it very interesting to see how so many on that list have evolved and how the changes could have affected our views today.

The order of CB MacDonald and Raynor courses is interesting.  I wonder if George would agree with that panel given what he knows about the origins of each of them?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

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Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2003, 07:56:32 PM »
#10, Foulpointe, Madagascar?  Not in C&W lists of courses... internet search only mentions a 9 holer at Manda Beach Club in Madagascar, no architect given.  Does anyone know about this course on the list to come in #10 of its time in some impressive competition even then!!! :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dunlop_White

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Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2003, 08:26:02 PM »
I hope the well never runs dry of the material which you are able to dig up. What a great column.... as always, thanks for your time, effort, and research.

Dunlop
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geoff_Shackelford

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Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2003, 09:40:04 PM »
I wonder what the members of Bel-Air would think if they knew they had the 20th best course in the world as judged by an incredible panel!?  And while we’re on the Southern California topic, Max Behr’s Lakeside at #58, well ahead of Thomas’s LACC-North...wow.

It’s also great to see Augusta National at #11. Perhaps the original was not as overrated as so many seem to think.

I have to second Paul’s comment, Laksers in Illinois??

Great stuff Tom, thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2003, 11:12:49 PM »
I thought it was interesting to see how many courses from England made the list -- 19, by my count. I'm assuming they're all still around, but even on this site I don't recall hearing much, if anything, about courses like Ganton, Woking, Brancaster, Pulborough, Liphook and Alwoodley.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Brad Klein

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Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2003, 01:45:56 AM »
Fascinating list, and quite a bold project to undertake in those days. And to think that the 17 people on this distinguished panel traveled about by steamer ship rather than airplane. To include, or even to get to Lawsonia or Prairie Dunes (the latter having only been open 4 years when the list was solicited) is also amazing. I even doubt one could disparage the list for the courses having courted the raters, or that the results were biased by the statistical unreliability of the small sample. Imagine that.

Anyone who has played Engineers (home to two majors before 1921) will know what a magical place that was - and still could be. I am still saddened by knowing what could have been of Gil Hanse's restoration plan nearly a decade ago, had the green chairman who sponsored the plan not died tragically.

Manoir Richelieu, also by Herbert Strong, is something of a curiosity. It was a much heralded layout in northeastern Quebec, though the version I saw two years ago (since renovated by Tom McBroom) had already been altered greatly.

Ironically, RTJ, the only American architect among the panelists, played no small hand in modernizing several of the courses on the list in ways that undermined their classical greatness.

Notice that Troon and Royal Birkdale are missing from the list, as are Cruden Bay, Machrihanish, and Nairn. Dornoch's absence is also notable, esp. given the fact that 12 of its present holes (1-6, 12, 14-18) were in place by then.

Also interesting - the paucity of Southern/Southwest courses. Nothing in S.C., Texas, Oklahoma (not even Southern Hills), Arizona, and only two in Florida.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Andy Levett

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Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2003, 03:03:22 AM »
Rick,
There are profiles of Ganton, Woking, Brancaster (Royal West Norfolk) and Pulborough (West Sussex) on this website. Ganton is hosting the Walker Cup in September.
Alwoodley and Liphook are still around and enjoy a fairly high-profile but are a bit off the usual circuits for overseas visitors.
There are some good pix and discussion of Alwoodley here:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/YaBB.cgi?board=GD1&action=display&num=1019746149&start=8
Tom MacW,
Thanks for sharing your find.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

T_MacWood

Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2003, 03:31:42 AM »
Foulpointe was also totally new to me.

Birkdale is on the list at #40....higher than I would have expected.

I found it odd that there was no mention of the hostilities in Europe.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Danny Goss

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Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2003, 03:37:00 AM »
Interesting to see three Australian courses listed. Other than Kirkwood, did any of the other judges ever even visit Australia? If not the reputation of the three listed must have travelled quite quickly to American and British shores.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2003, 03:37:13 AM »
Very interesting, Tom.  Thanks for finding and posting this list.

Brad

Birkdale is #40 (very interesting that there are no "Royal" honorifics added to those so deserving courses on the list).  Perhaps a sign of the times....  I'd add Lytham as a surprise absentee, as well as Lahinch and I'm sure a few others that don't immediately pop to mind.  Other surprises?

--Turnberry at #97.  This must mean that the pre-1948 MacKenzie Ross course must have been pretty good.  Anybody got an old routing?
--Ponte Vedra at #45.  I played there a number of times between 1959 and 1989.  Very average, IMHO.  Is it rated highly just because it was semi-posh (viz. Banff Springs, Le Touquet, Spa, Hot Springs, etc.)?

What I am not at surprised at is Dornoch, Machrihanish and Cruden Bay being left off the list.  For one thing, in 1939 it probably took less time by steamer to get from London to NY as it did to get to any of those places.  Even if not, the remote bits of Scotland in those days seemed that far away in the mids of much of the London golfing elite.  We all know that Darwin never made it to some if not all of those great venues, and Bernie had a big influence in 1939.  I also wonder if that by 1939, Dornoch (and Machrihanish and Cruden Bay?) might already have been converted into military airfields, which probably altered their attractiveness as golf courses for the worse.....

Vis a vis Dornoch, given Joyce Wethered's place on the panel, I was surprised it didn't get a mention, but.......through vigorous internet research I found out that she became Lady Heathcote-Amory through marriage in 1924, and thus would have move to the Shires and possibly seen Dornoch as just a holiday course from the warm memories of the cockles of her distant past by 1939.

Interestingly, my research also uncovered an allegation that prior to that marriage, she had been engaged to a Maj. C. K. Hutchinson, of GCA fame.  Anybody have any dirt on that potentially fascinating bit of gossip?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Paul Richards

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Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2003, 03:40:55 AM »
eckstein:

Thanks.  Is Laskers in Lake Forest one of the great "Missing Links?"

As far as the 44, it consists of the US and the British Isles courses.  No surprise there!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

bodgeblack

Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2003, 04:29:30 AM »
thanks tom. a really interesting find.

Have you managed to unearth any of the readers replies to the article? I wonder if the list provoked as much reaction as lists or rankings get whenever mentioned on GCA today!

cheers

jamie
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

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Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2003, 04:56:21 AM »
Tom -

Thanks for sharing your find. Terrific.

I was interested to note that Timber Point beat out The Lido by a fair margin. I would have guessed it would go the other way.

Didn't both of those courses disappear about the time of the survey?

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wsmorrison

Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2003, 05:25:30 AM »
Laskers is the private estate course designed for Albert Lasker by William Flynn in 1926.  At 7000 yards the Mill Road Farm Golf Course was quite possibly the longest course of its day by a large margin.  It was an early design with its purpose to challenge the best golfers of the day, a true championship course.  

Albert Lasker was an extraordinary businessman, originally from Texas, who revolutionized the advertising industry and controlled the largest ad agency in the world.  On his private estate in Lake Forest he invited business partners, friends, and golf's great players.  For many years there was a standing $500 offered to the first man to break par.  Tommy Armour took the prize several years after the opening.  Bobby Jones called it one of the 3 toughest courses in America.  

Dan Wexler did a great write-up on the course in Missing Links.  Since then we have worked together and discovered aerial photos, a routing plan, and a guest membership card that Lasker gave to all his guests.  Each was printed with a membership number of 1 on it.  

Lasker donated the entire estate to the University of Chicago.  For a time they kept the golf course going, but shortly after taking possession, the university sold the property and there are homes covering the long lost course.

Look for an extensive description and analysis of this and all courses by Flynn in the book that Tom Paul and I are writing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wsmorrison

Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2003, 05:27:41 AM »
Thanks for uncovering this great list Tom MacW.  It certainly is thought provoking and fun to consider.  I did not notice a date when this was compiled.  Maybe I missed it, but can you tell me please when this came out?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed_getka

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Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2003, 07:29:35 AM »
Tom,
 Thanks for taking the time to post this info.

It was interesting to see where NGLA and Shinnecock were in relation to one another. Hadn't Flynn done his work there at this point?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

SPDB

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Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2003, 07:57:46 AM »
Tom - Thanks for this. I was very intrigued by the inclusion of, among others, Lawsonia (and above its midwest competitor Chicago, no less). I had never known that it was so highly regarded in the early part of last century. Always thought it was sort of a hidden gem.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wsmorrison

Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2003, 07:58:12 AM »
Ed,
I see the list was compiled for a 1939 publication.  By then Flynn's redesign of Shinnecock was open for 8 years or so.
Best,
Wayne
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

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Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2003, 08:08:39 AM »

Quote
Lasker donated the entire estate to the University of Chicago.  For a time they kept the golf course going, but shortly after taking possession, the university sold the property and there are homes covering the long lost course.

Where in Lake Forest was the course?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

SPDB

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Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2003, 08:22:34 AM »
Interesting choices for Robert Trent Jones. Did he work on Jasper Park and Banff Springs while with Thompson? Also his August pick was a foreshadower.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wsmorrison

Re: Tom MacWood's newest find is posted under IMO
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2003, 08:25:37 AM »
Dan,
The 480 acre property in Vernon Twp. was bordered by
Everett Rd on the North
Telegraph Rd on the East
Old Mill Rd on the South
I think the coach house exixts and is at 1221 Estate Lane
David Adler designed the house.  There were extensive gardens as well.  The Lake Forest Historical Society has been extremely helpful in obtaining materials relating to the property in general and the golf course in particular.
regards,
Wayne
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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