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Mark_Rowlinson

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100 acres
« on: December 01, 2009, 12:25:27 PM »
Many British 18-hole courses built before the Second World War are on sites of about 100 acres or even less. Some lack practice grounds; car parking may be inadequate; holes may be dangerously close. Yet many of these courses continue to provide adequately testing golf and much fun. Could you build a course of this nature today on such an acreage, assuming the topography was not too liimiting a factor?

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: 100 acres
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2009, 12:50:13 PM »
Many British 18-hole courses built before the Second World War are on sites of about 100 acres or even less. Some lack practice grounds; car parking may be inadequate; holes may be dangerously close. Yet many of these courses continue to provide adequately testing golf and much fun. Could you build a course of this nature today on such an acreage, assuming the topography was not too liimiting a factor?
Yes quite easily, I even know of a 7000 yarder with a practice ground on 103 acres. A 6000 yarder with 5 short holes is fairly easy. I have just completed an 18 holer 5500 yards on 75 acres.... Basically an 18 hole golf course is about 90 acres the rest is not used, it has to be the right parcel to fir on 100 acres though as you will need to use all of it.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2009, 01:07:36 PM »
I have mentioned this before, that the Dallas Country Club is on about 100 acres. A couple of years or so ago the Dallas Amateur Championship was held there and I believe that in qualifying there were very few scores under par.

Bob

Jud_T

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Re: 100 acres
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2009, 01:12:24 PM »
This is an interesting topic...DMK claims you need at least 160 acres to make a really good course! Many of the courses I play seem like there's not enough real estate to provide sufficient variety and strategy, however courses like the old course are on limited space and are brilliant.  Interested to hear more from those in the trade on this topic...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2009, 01:21:40 PM »
Maybe DMK does need that much but Ross obviously didn't. The course I worked at in Jacksonville was on approx 110 acres and never felt cramped. Homely perhps but not cramped.
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2009, 04:36:06 PM »
In answering this question, you have to decide whether or not you are trying to build a par-72 course. Trying to squeeze a par-72 course (with four par-5's) on to 100 acres might be a real challenge, but a par-70 or par-68 course would certainly be less of a problem. Claremont CC in Oakland, CA is a very challenging par-68 course built on less than 100 acres.   

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2009, 05:15:01 PM »
An Acre is approx 70 yards by 70 yards. 70 yards is a good playing corridor per hole, 6300 yards is 90 running 70 yards of golf corridor, if you consider at green areas, teeing areas you dont need that width you can easily up your length/ reduce your needed golfing acres, parking lots might be 1.5 acres, clubhouse area 0.5 acre, a nice practice area maybe 10 acres, you will need a good acre for the maintenance area...pretty much everything else is out of play so if you have 150 acres... 50 of it is not for golf, although space adds to the ambience ofcourse.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2009, 04:52:42 AM »
Mark

You said it yourself in the opening post, "holes may be dangerously close". 

The reason full length (5,800-yard plus) courses are not developed on such small sites is the requirement to provide adequate safety margins between holes and to adjacent boundaries.

A single hole corridor of 120 metres (131 yards) is now considered minimally sufficent by many in the design industry.  That is 60 metres to either side of a hole's centreline to either a site boundary or the centreline of an adjacent, parallel hole.  And I stress, that is considered 'minimally' sufficient, on a site which is basically flat.  If you're going to design golf holes tighter than that then make sure you have plenty of professional indemnity insurance!

There are no 'rules', just guidelines, but this is the baseline from which I, any many of my industry colleagues start.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2009, 05:31:43 AM »
Mark

You said it yourself in the opening post, "holes may be dangerously close". 

The reason full length (5,800-yard plus) courses are not developed on such small sites is the requirement to provide adequate safety margins between holes and to adjacent boundaries.

A single hole corridor of 120 metres (131 yards) is now considered minimally sufficent by many in the design industry.  That is 60 metres to either side of a hole's centreline to either a site boundary or the centreline of an adjacent, parallel hole.  And I stress, that is considered 'minimally' sufficient, on a site which is basically flat.  If you're going to design golf holes tighter than that then make sure you have plenty of professional indemnity insurance!

There are no 'rules', just guidelines, but this is the baseline from which I, any many of my industry colleagues start.

Robin

Holy shit!  No wonder the cost of the game is rocketing.  With stats like that one could argue that courses are getting fatter more than they are longer.  There can't be too many of these old courses in England with that sort of width and I rarely feel I am in danger.  Do ya think 130 yards is a bit ott?  I would have thought 100 yards is plenty in most cases.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2009, 06:03:49 AM »
Sean

No, I don't feel that is too fat for a new design.  If you consider that this 60m is probably subdived roughly into thirds, with 15-20 metres of fairway to the side of the centreline, it means there will only be 20-30 metres of rough between the cut grass areas of adjacent holes.

Whether we like it or not, course design is an intrinsic par of the circle of technological advances.  As the ball travels further, it also brings the potential of it going wider, which is why the commonly accepted minimum safety guideline has evolved as it has.  FYI, the Department of Transport insists on a minimum of 100 metres from an adjacent golf hole to a trunk road or motorway.  If I'm designing holes alongside real estate, I try to give an 80 metre margin, for future proofing.  I don't always get it though.

If the old, traditional courses were required to adhere to modern safety margins it would be devastating to many of them.  You are right.  Few come close to this curent 'standard'.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 07:18:27 AM by Robin_Hiseman »
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2009, 07:27:56 AM »
Robin - I certainly have never designed anything to those margins, my own guidelines are miles out from some of those. I think you can get 2 holes in a 100 yard wide field. hedge to fairway 5 yards <fairway> 35 yards <semi rough with tree planting> 20 yards <fairway> 35 yards fairway to hedge 5 yards. This is probaby 80% of all UK courses.

I accept that wider is better I think 140 yards for 2 holes is very ample.

I do agree that busy roads require much greater protection but its more about the angles and 100 metres from an edge of the fairway at say 220 yards is nearer the limit the tees and certain parts of the hole could still be within the 100 metre zone.

I think you can build a course safely within 100 acres, but as mentioned on other threads, occasional balls can go anywhere. H & S is almost ruining the word, compliance with twaddle creates hot air jobs and puts £$£$£ on the price the consumer pays for almost everything. People need to just be sensible.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2009, 08:17:52 AM »
Adrian:

Each to their own, but ever since I started in this industry with Hawtree in 1991, 60m has been the commonly banded minimum starting point.  Clearly, every situation is unique and one has a 'feel' for what is safe in each case, which may cause you/me to bend our own guidelines from time to time.

In the example you use, for two parallel holes, I would be starting from a point of seeking 180 metres width (at the dogleg point).  Clearly, the width from the centre of either hole to the boundary hedge would depend on what the hedge bordered.  If it were a continuation of the golf course land then 60 metres would be far too generous.  I would go much closer, but probably not as close as you mention....it depends on what is the other side of the hedge.  If the hedge were the boundary to an adjacent property/road then I believe that the golf architect should respect the rights of the adjacent land owner to be clear of the nuisance of stray golf balls entering their land, by providing at least the same safety margin as one would seek to establish between the parallel holes.  Clearly, this is an ideal and we don't always get ideal, but if I were forced to get much closer than that I would be seeking to bolster the boundary defences.  I'd take a tee closer to the boundary than 60m to enable the angle of play to be away from the boundary.  As you know there are a lot of variables in every case and a desktop analysis is no more than that.

I'm sure you won't remember Adrian, but I came within an ace of working for you back in 1991.  You offered me a job.  It could be that my views would be different now if history had taken a different course ;).
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2009, 08:41:34 AM »
Robin 60 metres or 70 yards is what I use, so we might be getting our wires crossed a bit. I know I have used a 100 yard field to get two holes in (10 & 18 Kendleshire) and it works, although more width would be better, in this instance I used about 8 bunkers between these fairways to guard the other.

I dont remember meeting you in 1991, which job was it?
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2009, 08:56:54 AM »
Robin 60 metres or 70 yards is what I use, so we might be getting our wires crossed a bit. I know I have used a 100 yard field to get two holes in (10 & 18 Kendleshire) and it works, although more width would be better, in this instance I used about 8 bunkers between these fairways to guard the other.

I dont remember meeting you in 1991, which job was it?

What's on either side of the field at Kendleshire, Adrian?

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2009, 09:06:22 AM »
Adrian:

I went to see Erlestoke Sands and came to see you at your office in Bristol.  It was very smoky!
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2009, 09:35:39 AM »
The safety buffers for golf courses have gotten bigger and bigger over the years.

Officially, there is no "recommended" distance, because no one wants to stick their neck out and make the call and then be a party to every lawsuit that comes up for the rest of time.  I have seen people hit the ball 100 yards off their intended line of play, so there really is no distance that is 100% safe.

In the early 1900's, architects like Tom Bendelow used 60 yards from centerline to centerline as spacing for parallel holes.  Those are the old parkland courses where you will see someone slice over a tree into the other fairway.  By the 1920's, 200 feet was common, then 250 feet, and now 300 feet between centerlines is not uncommon.

One of the biggest problems in spacing holes is the presence of cart paths.  If you've got a course that has more than two parallel holes across, then there is going to be a cart path running between two of the holes, and now you've got to start thinking about a safety buffer TO THE CART PATH instead of to the middle of the next hole.  That's how you get up to 200 acres for an 18-hole course.

I have not been afraid to push the safety buffers a bit on occasion in order to fit holes to the terrain, or squeeze through a narrow area.  It's much easier if the holes are shorter, so that the landing area for one is up near the tee for its opposite number, because then the safety dangers are more visible ... think of the 9th & 10th at The Old Course.

I know that I have seen many good courses that are on 100 to 115 acres, but it can only be done today if there are NO golf carts and a limited volume of play.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2009, 10:02:06 AM »
Adrian:

I went to see Erlestoke Sands and came to see you at your office in Bristol.  It was very smoky!
I think I do vaguely remember it now, I had a lot on in the early ninetees, I think I can remember something about an offer from Hawtree's. God I hate smoke now. If your down this way pop in to The Players Club.

Tom good point about the cart paths, we dont really have them in the UK ofcourse.

Ally- One side is a farmers field, the boundary, the other side forms part of the golf course.

Its amazing when you look at google earth how many paired up holes are in real tight squeezes.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2009, 10:06:16 AM »
We have discussed this before, but another reason for more acreage is not only cart paths between fw, but cart paths between green and next tee. Even if behind the green, it adds 10 or more feet to the distance between the two.  And if you have parallel holes with the next hole playing right back you have to keep the cart path about 50 feet to the side of the green, but also keep an eye out for the play coming off the next tee, so where tees used to be as little as 175 feet from the center of the previous green, they now are at least 200, just because of the need to keep a cart path out of play.

There does seem to be a real disconnect in this, because as mentioned, there are lots of courses tighter than the scientific explanation where the hair doesn't raise up on the back of the neck. I propose the "hair raise" test as a legal standard. If the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, I think the green and tee are too close!  In reality, I think the angle is as important as distance in being safe and feeling comfortable. 

From the USGA charts, 2/3 of average players miss within about 7.5 degrees each side of the target.  On a 265 yard tee shot, that is 80 ft each side of center. 

Hurdzan once told me that he sent out associates to measure actual tee shots in proposing 15 degrees. Nugent had us do the same thing years ago.  From memory, we both agreed that over 90% of balls land within 150' either side of center, and typically travelled about 190-200 yards.  That comes out to 15 degrees at 200 yards. At 265, 15 degrees translates to 220' either side of center, wider than most actually use for design of housing corridors.  That angle is really for off line shots to adjacent areas not at full length shots, and its questionable whether a shot hit that far laterally could ever attain full distance anyway.

A lawyer would tell you we are only resposnible for avoiding clearly foreseeable safety situations, not providing absolute safety.
However, I doubt any lawyer would suggest 90% constitutes "Preponderance" of shots not being dangerous.  They would argue for 99.99% if their client had an eye put out.  There is no evidence that I know of to suggest to what degree (95%, 99%) any extra safety buffer distance achieves. 
 
KN had a copy of an old court case where the expert had testified that 22.5 degrees was the maximum deflection on a golf shot.  On a 265 yard shot, that translates to 330' either side of center, so Tom Doak must have witnessed one of the maximum misses of all time!  A friend whose house was getting pelted once asked me to look at it. In measuring the locations of ball strikes on his side wall, I will be damned if the very last one didn't measure out to 22.5 degrees.

So, for adjacent tees and greens, I actually plot out 25-30 degrees in routing, figuring if the cart paths, etc. get added in, they will put golfers no less than 15-22 degrees in the next line of play.  It does add space, but I never feel unsafe when I play my own courses.  It also allows for the inevitable day when someone adds a back tee, which often decreases the planned safety angle.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2009, 10:24:02 AM »
Thanks Adrian.  I'd like to do that when it warms up again.

I think the smallest, decent 18-hole course I can recall playing is Kirriemuir, in Angus, which is squeezed onto some ridiculously small acreage (around 75 I think), but one only has to look at courses like Merion or Kingston Heath to appreciate the potential of a good small site. 

I think Jeff's 'hairs on the back of the neck test' is spot on.  Regardless of what the plan may tell you, you just get a feeling when something is potentially dangerous.  However, having a baseline to start from is no bad thing.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2009, 10:29:24 AM »
I am still having a hard time getting my head round 130 yards width per hole.  Thinking on this, in reality, this must be in place only very rarely.  For instance, just to give an idea, I think my old club had widths much closer to 70 yards and even then dangerous situations rarely propped up - though it could do with more width.  

I spose at 130 yards width per corridor there should be few excuses for narrow fairways no matter where the course is built.  By narrow I mean less than 50 yards wide.  Jeepers, I can't really think of examples of 130 yard wide corridors.  The more I think on it the more it just seems totally ott.  This must be some sort of "ideal" rather than any sort of "standard" - no?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2009, 10:29:59 AM »
I always enjoyed the old Harry Colt course at Dun Laoghaire which was on 69 acres... There were a couple of obvious safety issues but nothing too outrageous...

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2009, 10:30:31 AM »
Wouldn't it just be a lot cheaper for every course to have these for rent, and if you dind't use it you had to sign a wavier?

Then we could just build em as we please because while someone could still get struck in another part of the body and it surely would  hurt like hell, it more than likely wouldn't be life threatening.


Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2009, 10:34:32 AM »
I am still having a hard time getting my head round 130 yards width per hole.  Thinking on this, in reality, this must be in place only very rarely.  For instance, just to give an idea, I think my old club had widths much closer to 70 yards and even then dangerous situations rarely propped up - though it could do with more width.  

I spose at 130 yards width per corridor there should be few excuses for narrow fairways no matter where the course is built.  By narrow I mean less than 50 yards wide.  Jeepers, I can't really think of examples of 130 yard wide corridors.  The more I think on it the more it just seems totally ott.  This must be some sort of "ideal" rather than any sort of "standard" - no?

Ciao

Sean, 130 yards as a width of a corridor is to the centreline of two parallel holes... i.e. you would not expect 260 yard width for two parallel holes... There would be an overlap... If you imagined all 18 holes being laid out like sardines in a tin next to each other, each corridor would only be a minimum of about 60 to 65 yards...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2009, 10:42:00 AM »
Ally:

No, there are many US architects who insist on a corridor of 400 feet wide (133 yards) if there are to be houses on both sides.  300 feet (100 yards) is sort of the minimum standard, but Nicklaus and Fazio won't take one of those jobs.  (Or maybe they would in 2010!)

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 100 acres
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2009, 10:42:25 AM »
Ally

You just beat me to posting the same explanation.

Sean, if you go on Google Earth and find a typical, professionally designed modern course and use the measure tool, I am sure you'll see the 60 metre (or therabouts) spread is fairly normal.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill