Matching two of Harbottle's courses. Palouse Ridge vs. Juniper

[Kalen Braley]

Based on pictures, while PR certainly looks to have some good to great holes....

I don't see it being anywhere near what Wine Valley has to offer in terms of aesthics, strategy, fun, and intresting golf shots to be played.  Additionally the greens have a ton of undulation and movement to them and really ratchet up the "fun factor".

Nice thread Garland....GCA.com would be well served with more threads like this.

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks Kalen,

What Wine Valley needs to do is have an Escalade bashing event with the participants being blonde Swedish nanny models. That would get them lots of publicity. Sorry, couldn't resist after you claiming it was such a high brow thread.

[Garland Bayley]

Seriously Kalen,

I agree that GCA.com could use more threads about courses other than just the top tier that have been talked to death.

But, then isn't that the duty of guys like you and I?

[Kalen Braley]

Seriously Kalen,

I agree that GCA.com could use more threads about courses other than just the top tier that have been talked to death.

But, then isn't that the duty of guys like you and I?

I've made it my duty to regulary post up the tracks found here in Utah.  I've got one in the hopper as we speak as well that I thought was a real hidden gem, perhaps even the ideal GCA.com golf course.

[Garland Bayley]

Mike,
I'm not a huge fan of the Home Course.  Individually it has some good holes, but the routing is goofy at best.  Particularly the walk from 10 to 11 is just terrible.
...

But you have to admit it is a cake walk compared to the walk from 9 to 10 at Palouse Ridge.

[Bill_McBride]

Garland, if you are unhappy that Palouse Ridge finished ahead of Wine Valley in some ranking, why not compare PR to WV?  I wasn't sure what Juniper had to do with this comparison.

I know you have plenty of photos of Wine Valley available to do a hole by hole comparison with Palouse Ridge, AG posted them on the Grudge Match thread.

I'm hoping to see Wine Valley when I'm out in June/July next summer, it looks really good.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Garland,
Why do you think the list has PR and WV in their respective places?  

[Matt_Ward]

I've played Palouse Ridge and walked a rough outline of Wine Valley when it was being graded in '08. I don't see how PR could finish that high on the overall listing since in my mind, after having played several of the other highly rated courses, that it could be seen as that good.

Harbottle has done other more solid work -- see his effort in tandem with Fuzzy Zoeller at Arrow Creek in the Reno area, to name just one quick example.

PR has a few good holes of note -- I like the starting hole and the blind tee shot mandate which requires a soft fade off the tee.

Unfortunately, the back nine is a bit more predictable and features less compelling arcchitectural elements.

Still worth a play when in the neighborhood but it's not of natoinal acclaim.

I agree it's helpful to feature courses that people can realistically hope to play when time and circumstances allow.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,
That still leaves the question unanswered,  how did it get to where it is on the list?

Did someone pay to get it there? Are there shenanigans going on whereby a golf course can, in effect, bribe its way onto the list? Does it 'cost' much more to be #2 than #5?

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
Why do you think the list has PR and WV in their respective places?  

Raters being low handicappers? Preference for playing line of instinct instead of line of charm? Preference for having it all laid out in front of you for the most part, a.k.a. the Ben Hogan syndrome.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,
Why do you think the list has PR and WV in their respective places?  

Raters being low handicappers? Preference for playing line of instinct instead of line of charm? Preference for having it all laid out in front of you for the most part, a.k.a. the Ben Hogan syndrome.

Oh, and one more. Preference for not getting off your lazy butt and walking!

[Mike Wagner]

Jordan,

I haven't been down there in a while, but the HC is re-routing the 11th hole.  The new tee will be (might be already) behind the 10th green, a short par 4, driving over the gully, between the trees.

I thin it's a great change since the green won't have to be touched - it's a short par 4 green - way too narrow for a long (from the back) par 3.

12 will become a par 3.  Not sure what it's gonig to look like, but I know they changed it due to complaints of people hitting the houses...

[Jim_Kennedy]

"Oh, and one more. Preference for not getting off your lazy butt and walking!"-Garland

I thought raters were mostly walking the courses they played?  What about those walkability categories?

[Sean Leary]

Jordan,

I haven't been down there in a while, but the HC is re-routing the 11th hole.  The new tee will be (might be already) behind the 10th green, a short par 4, driving over the gully, between the trees.

I thin it's a great change since the green won't have to be touched - it's a short par 4 green - way too narrow for a long (from the back) par 3.

12 will become a par 3.  Not sure what it's gonig to look like, but I know they changed it due to complaints of people hitting the houses...

I think this already happened...

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

I haven't been down there in a while, but the HC is re-routing the 11th hole.  The new tee will be (might be already) behind the 10th green, a short par 4, driving over the gully, between the trees.

I thin it's a great change since the green won't have to be touched - it's a short par 4 green - way too narrow for a long (from the back) par 3.

12 will become a par 3.  Not sure what it's gonig to look like, but I know they changed it due to complaints of people hitting the houses...

It's been two years since I've seen the course.  How is that routing change going to change the flow between 12 and 13?

[Garland Bayley]

"Oh, and one more. Preference for not getting off your lazy butt and walking!"-Garland

I thought raters were mostly walking the courses they played?  What about those walkability categories?

What would ever give you such an idea?

Here is the Golfweek criteria.
http://www.golfweek.com/news/2009/oct/08/guidelines-used-golfweeks-course-raters/

There is no walking rating there!

There is a "walk in the park" criteria, which basically asks do you like to spend time out doors there! Talk about a thinly disguised way of saying, is this place rich enough for you? The walk in the criteria name is a misnomer.

Golf Digest has been known to give points if the course allows you to walk! Gee what a bonus! If they condescend to let you play the game as intended then they might get a little extra credit!

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, if you are unhappy that Palouse Ridge finished ahead of Wine Valley in some ranking, why not compare PR to WV?  I wasn't sure what Juniper had to do with this comparison.

I know you have plenty of photos of Wine Valley available to do a hole by hole comparison with Palouse Ridge, AG posted them on the Grudge Match thread.

I'm hoping to see Wine Valley when I'm out in June/July next summer, it looks really good.

I don't consider Palouse Ridge to be in the same league as Wine Valley. Furthermore, I wanted to show that Harbottle does better work than Palouse Ridge.


EDIT: I can give you the short synopsis. Wine Valley 18 up!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Garland,

1. Ease and intimacy of routing
The extent to which the sequence of holes follows natural contours and unfolds in an unforced manner.
This one seems to have a good focus on walking. Otherwise, how could there be an ease or especially an intimacy, to the routing?

 3. Natural setting and overall land plan
Quality and aesthetic relationship of golf course, clubhouse, cart paths and other facility features to surrounding structures and native scenery.
Maybe that horrifically ugly land plan w/all the surrounding houses at Wine Valley is detracting from the available points in this category?

10. “Walk in the park” test
The degree to which the course ultimately is worth spending a half-day on as a compelling outdoor experience.
This might not speak directly to your opinion of what makes a course walkable, but it does reveal if the experience was worth the time. I don't see the conflation with wealth, but maybe I'm lucky to be in New England where so many of our reasonably priced courses are a wonderful walk in the outdoors. 

[Bill_McBride]

Garland, if you are unhappy that Palouse Ridge finished ahead of Wine Valley in some ranking, why not compare PR to WV?  I wasn't sure what Juniper had to do with this comparison.

I know you have plenty of photos of Wine Valley available to do a hole by hole comparison with Palouse Ridge, AG posted them on the Grudge Match thread.

I'm hoping to see Wine Valley when I'm out in June/July next summer, it looks really good.

I don't consider Palouse Ridge to be in the same league as Wine Valley. Furthermore, I wanted to show that Harbottle does better work than Palouse Ridge.
Stevinson Ranch, the site of Kings Putter 2006 (?) and the scene of my only hole in one, is a terrific course.  Mr. Harbottle is very capable.

EDIT: I can give you the short synopsis. Wine Valley 18 up!   Thanks, looking forward to seeing it.

[Bob Jenkins]

Does anyone know how many new courses were opened in 2009 in the US?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bob,
There were only about 115 openings in 2007 and 75 or 85 openings in 2008. I don't know about '09, but I read somewhere that only 16 or 17 new courses opened in the first quarter.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

1. Ease and intimacy of routing
The extent to which the sequence of holes follows natural contours and unfolds in an unforced manner.
This one seems to have a good focus on walking. Otherwise, how could there be an ease or especially an intimacy, to the routing?

 3. Natural setting and overall land plan
Quality and aesthetic relationship of golf course, clubhouse, cart paths and other facility features to surrounding structures and native scenery.
Maybe that horrifically ugly land plan w/all the surrounding houses at Wine Valley is detracting from the available points in this category?

10. “Walk in the park” test
The degree to which the course ultimately is worth spending a half-day on as a compelling outdoor experience.
This might not speak directly to your opinion of what makes a course walkable, but it does reveal if the experience was worth the time. I don't see the conflation with wealth, but maybe I'm lucky to be in New England where so many of our reasonably priced courses are a wonderful walk in the outdoors. 

The point is none of them mention walking as an explicit criteria. You said you thought reviewers were walkers and the courses were rated for walking. That was false. I strongly suspect the criteria are worded the way they are to let those who wish to factor in walking can.

Wealth speaks to the ability to seclude the course in an urban setting from the urban environment and get a more natural outdoor experience.

E.g., Kissena Park vs Winged Foot.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Garland,
It would be interesting to know what the percentage of raters walked PR and WV. We are both speculating as neither of us really knows the answer to that question.

There are wealthy urban clubs, but there are many park like courses out in the burbs, or the countryside, that aren't wealthy so I really cannot see where this makes any difference at all.

Have you given any thought to the "Natural Setting and Overall Land Plann" guideline?

[Garland Bayley]

...
Have you given any thought to the "Natural Setting and Overall Land Plann" guideline?

Not enough to go look up the land plan at Wine Valley. From playing the course, it is obvious that the "Natural Setting and Overall Land Plan" will be much better than Tetherow, which topped some of the best new lists the year before.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Garland,
Wow, I had never seen their land plan.  Even though the housing at Tetherow totally encircles the golf course just like the housing does at Wine Valley, it looks like there is more of it, as hard as that is to believe. I see what you mean.

On the other hand, I can't find the housing here: