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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2009, 10:38:37 PM »
Kenny,

It's about 30 minutes+  depending on traffic from the Westin to WeKoPa.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jud_T

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2009, 10:34:27 PM »
Just wanted to update those interested on my trip:

Played 3 Rounds:

Pinnacle Peak Country Club-My buddy's club.  Nothing special in terms of this site. But lightning quick greens.

WeKoPa Saguaro-  Beautiful Course.  We had an hour rain delay, but had the place to ourselves afterwards.  Loved the C&C Greens complexes and bunkering, but were they limited in terms of acreage?  Fairways were not as wide as I had expected, but maybe this was just my baptism by fire into desert golf.

Talking Stick North-  I love this course!  I can't believe with all the lip service paid on this site to minimalism that this track isn't held in even higher regard here and held up more often as a shining beacon in the dark.  The fact that the country isn't dotted with a lot more courses like this shows how wrong things went after the depression in terms of how the development of courses stateside has progressed.  Just goes to show what can be done with enough useable acreage and the right client/GCA.  You don't need massive sand dunes on the ocean to produce fun strategic golf.  And at 7100 from the tips it's not exactly a pushover. Plus my kid played for $25!

Thanx to everyone who posted suggestions.  Also great food at Lolo's, Over Easy, Matt's and Barrio Cafe  8)


« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 05:36:09 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tony Weiler

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2009, 11:08:38 PM »
Jud, glad you had a good time.  I'm going to put TSN on my list for the next PHX trip.  Glad you reported back. 

Bill_McBride

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2009, 11:14:20 PM »
Just wanted to update those interested on my trip:

Played 3 Rounds:

Pinnacle Peak Country Club-My buddy's club.  Nothing special in terms of this site. But really great greens.

WeKoPa Saguaro-  Beautiful Course.  We had an hour rain delay, but had the place to ourselves afterwards.  Loved the C&C Greens complexes and bunkering, but were they limited in terms of acreage?  Fairways were not as wide as I had expected, but maybe this was just my baptism by fire into desert golf.

Talking Stick North-  I love this course!  I can't believe with all the lip service paid on this site to minimalism that this track isn't held in higher regard here and held up more often as a shining beacon in the dark.  The fact that the country isn't dotted with a lot more courses like this shows how wrong things went after the depression in terms of how the development of courses stateside has progressed.  Just goes to show what can be done with enough useable acreage and the right client/GCA.  You don't need massive sand dunes on the ocean to produce fun strategic golf.  And at 7100 from the tips it's not exactly a pushover. Plus my kid played for $25!

Thanx to everyone who posted suggestions.  Also great food at Lolo's, Over Easy, Matt's and Barrio Cafe  8)




Jud, TSN has long been held on this site as the exemplar of what can be done on a truly flat site.  The centerline bunkering and hazards at #4, #5, #12 have made this a very popular course among the GCA cognoscenti.

Jud_T

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #29 on: December 25, 2009, 03:57:13 AM »
Bill,

I'm just surprised it's not mentioned even more than it is...  :)  Greens seemed a bit slow after the first two tracks but that's quibbling...    
« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 04:56:15 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #30 on: December 25, 2009, 09:26:31 AM »
TSN was mentioned frequently here before C&C did Saguaro at WeKoPa. In fact, the most beloved man in golf even did a write up here:

http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/talkingstick
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom Yost

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2009, 10:00:03 AM »

WeKoPa Saguaro-... Loved the C&C Greens complexes and bunkering, but were they limited in terms of acreage?  Fairways were not as wide as I had expected, but maybe this was just my baptism by fire into desert golf.


Baptism indeed!  Funny, because Saguaro offers what might be some of the widest playing corridors of any desert/target course in the Phoenix area.  I think the courses on the reservations may be exempt from the turf acreage restrictions.  Many of the desert courses built in the 90's can really be ball-eaters.


Thanx to everyone who posted suggestions.  Also great food at Lolo's, Over Easy, Matt's and Barrio Cafe  8)

Great that you were able to get a taste of the local joints.


mike_beene

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2009, 10:48:40 AM »
Two questions for the Phoenix people who may be following this thread:which daily fees will let you walk? And Phx Country Club looks beautiful from the office tower on central;how is the course?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2009, 10:55:32 AM »
Mike,

I've walked Papago,TSN and Wigwam Gold.  TPC Champions actually promotes walking. I haven't played there...yet. It's on my list for my winter visit.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bill_McBride

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2009, 01:13:11 PM »
Mike,

I've walked Papago,TSN and Wigwam Gold.  TPC Champions actually promotes walking. I haven't played there...yet. It's on my list for my winter visit.



Steve, I have walked the 3 you mentioned plus TSS and TPC Champions which is indeed a nice walk.   Southern Dunes is a really good walk and no resistance from the staff.  That's the one down south that I think used to be Royal Dunes.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #35 on: December 25, 2009, 01:53:02 PM »
Bill,

Southern Dunes is on my winter list too. That was the original name when it was a men only private club. The name was changed to Royal Dunes because of new ownership. Now, it's back to Southern Dunes in its now public phase.

Of course, the PHX munis all allow walking. Aguila, the newest one, is supposed to be a good course and it's also on my list.


"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matt_Ward

Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2009, 03:59:17 PM »
Cory:

DM does shut down a few courses in the summer period.

But, it's worth playing there -- I have always been a mega fan of Chirichua and to a lesser degree now with Geronimo since it had a few holes changed substanially from the time Jack fist designed it.

Also worth a play there is Outlaw -- in my mind, the most underrated layout in the Valley area. Great walking layout and free of the natural clutter of homes that dot too many courses in the Valley of the Sun.


Carl Nichols

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2009, 09:38:56 PM »
Saguaro allows walking, has good Sun Mountain push carts, and is a pretty easy walk. 

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2009, 12:47:25 AM »
desert forest trumps the whole area

Tony Weiler

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2009, 12:03:22 PM »
Tiger, how tough is access?

Matt_Ward

Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2009, 11:51:20 PM »
Anthony:

Just one tip to consider -- if you are staying at any of the key Scottsdale hotels you have a good shot at making a play at any number of the so-called private courses -- the one that may be the toughest ticket to get is access to Whisper Rock. And, I can tell you this, it's worth playing there if ever the opportunity arises for you or any other person for that matter.

Tony Weiler

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2009, 10:04:03 AM »
Thanks, Matt (and I received two PM's, also, thank you, too).  I've made two trips to Phx. to golf, and really love it.  Especially since I'm now sitting in two feet of snow!  Anyway, we have played We Ko Pa (both), TPC Stadium, Vista Verde, and the other courses at Tonto, Grayhawk Talon, Whirlwind DC, Raven at So. Mt., Sun Ridge Canyon, and maybe one I'm forgetting.  I really like desert golf, and it seems that is such a rich area for golf with courses in the $100 range we've not really tried to play any privates.  I did inquire at Estancia and was told "we're private."  I think still quite a few "Public" I'd like to play yet, but if the opportunity arises, we'll play a private.  I think we may have a contact at WR, Matt, so maybe in the next year or so.  No trip this Spring, as we all have other committments, but perhaps next. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2010, 02:46:44 PM »
Just returned from a 3 day Valley of the Sun trip, wanted to echo a few of the sentiments from this thread.  Played 18, 36, 36 over three days at Vista Verde, Blackstone and Troon North.  Thoughts as follows:

VV - Having playing Rochelle Ranch in WY, was looking forward to the Ken Kavanaugh experience and was not disappointed.  Course is playing F and F, with the overseeding only on the tee boxes and greens at the moment.  As discussed, the green complexes can be extremely tricky.  Ended up not having a lot of long putts after scrambling around the greens.  A three hour round was a plus, but would suggest getting out in one of the first few groups, as the range was full when we pulled up 18.  The combination of wide fairways, manageable desert areas and the brown made this a blast to play.  Still no construction and no clubhouse, so minimalist golf at its best.

Blackstone - Lucky to gain access to this newish club in the west valley.  The amenities are top notch, one of the nicest clubhouses I've visited and the service is unparalleled.  The course itself is in immaculate shape.  After 18 at VV, BS felt like a completely different experience.  Engh's design is challenging but fair.  During the second round of the day it was easier to pick out favored landing areas and ways to attack a hole.  Not having seen a course description on this site, I'll list the holes with a short description:

1 - 402 yd (4) - plays downhill to an extremely wide fairway and back up hill to a left to right sloping green.  Engh's use of contours around the green to allow for different styles of approach shots becomes evident.
2 - 194 yd (3) - the par 3's seem to disguise the depth of the greens, had to trust yardages and hope for good reads on the greens.
3 - 585 yd (5) - straight away hole defensed by bunkering around the green.  Tough two shotter, easy three shotter.
4 - 442 yd (4) - Cape style hole, with a two tiered green with a punchbowl area on the lower right protected by an approach directly over the water.  Didn't mind the water on this hole, the risk/reward nature of the drive seemed fair with the width of the fairway.
5 - 470 yd (4) - beautiful driving hole that optically asks one to hit left when the best line is out to the right.  Even if your view of the green is blocked out, it is important to avoid the bunkers on the right.
6 - 360 yd (4) - the most "irish" of the holes on the course, wide fairway with an approach to a green set in a valley that narrows the further back the pin is set.  Yardage and line are still important, as several shots that played long hung up on the slopes making for tricky recoveries.
7 - 154 yd (3) - another deceptive green.  Easiest of the par 3's.
8 - 447 yd (4) - the strength of this hole is in the demands placed on the approach, as the green shrugs off shots coming up short or right.  You want to attack this hole from the right, but the drive suggests the safe play is from the left.
9 - 555 yd (5) - a stunning three shot hole with as unique a green-site as I have seen.  The green itself is probably the smallest on the course, and makes for interesting putts if the approach is errant.  Need to hit two solid shots to set up an approach from the best line.
10 - 416 yd (4) - the test on this hole is where to put your drive.  The green itself is receptive with a back to front slope, making shots hit hole high or close there to optimal as just about any putt on this green is going to be tricky.
11 - 619 yd (5) - landing area for the drive is pinched by a bunker complex left and water right.  Second and third shots are straight forward, provided one avoids the turbo boost slope extending off of the bunker in the front of the green.
12 - 404 yd (4) - straight forward hole with the premium placed on a well judged second shot, being beyond the hole is trouble, but being short is in the canyon.
13- 203 yd (3) - extremely wide green makes for interesting pin placements, on Friday the pin was in the middle on the ridge bisecting the green.
14 - 524 yd (5) - the local knowledge hole, as the second shot can be played over the desert area to the green if one knows the proper line and where the pin is that day on the 65 yd long green.  Wonderful fairway contours to play with if one choses to play safe to the right on the second.
15 - 228 yd (3) - wonderful green site set back into a small valley.  A low runner is the best way to attack a back pin.
16 - 354 yd (4) - short downhill hole with a wide landing area, but the downhill lie for the pitch makes the approach tougher than it looks.
17 - 194 yd (3) - described as a dell hole, but only because the pin can be blind.  Recovery from around the green is possible from just about anywhere.
18 - 538 yd (5) - perhaps not as strong a finishing hole to this nine as on the front, but a good driving hole with defenses around the green to deter an aggressive second shot.  Another smallish green compared to the massive complexes found on most of the rest of the course.

The only other Engh I've played is Lakota, tough to compare the two as the elevation changes at LC make it a different course.  I would say the strong holes at BS are equal to those at LC, and the weaker holes are consistently better (don't quote me on that as I thoroughly enjoyed both courses, the conditioning at BS probably sways the vote).  From what I understand the development around BS is still in the works.  Currently there are few to no houses on the course.  Hard to beat this 36 anywhere I've played in the valley, and the cocktails forced on us by Hilario the bartender post round capped off a tremendous day.  [To preempt the question, we rode.]

TN - Both pinnacle and monument have been discussed ad infinitum on this site, so won't bore anyone with a recap.  Will say that the number of ball marks on the greens was troubling, especially after the conditioning of BS.  If you want to see wildlife, go to Troon.  We saw bobcat pups as well as wild boars during the round.  Probably says something that they were the highlights.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tony Weiler

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2010, 04:37:31 PM »
Sven, thanks for the post.  Did the lack of overseeding at VV make the conditions of the fairways difficult, "unplayable", or just not as fun?  I guess my understanding of overseeding is limited, so that's why I wonder.  Thanks. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2010, 05:48:37 PM »
Tony:

There was nothing wrong with the fairways, unless one has a preference for green over brown.  They ran beautifully and we had no problems playing irons off the turf.  In fact, I'd say the overseeding near the greens prevented certain run up shots that would have worked if the turf was brown through the greens.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Matt_Ward

Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2010, 07:54:43 PM »
Sven:

Of all the public courses you have played in the States where would you rate Vista Verde.

Like you -- I really think highly of the place. Gets little ink but never disappoints. Clearly, the house side of things may change that dimension in the years to come.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2010, 12:02:16 AM »
Matt:

I'll break it into four tiers (with examples for each category):

1.  Courses I would schedule a trip around - PD/BD/BT, Pebble/Spyglass, The Ocean Course, Wildhorse, Blackwolf Run River, Yale

2.  Courses I'd drive more than two hours to play - Erin Hills, Whistling Straits, We-Ko-Pa, Thunderhawk, Lakota Canyon, Warren Course

3.  Courses I'd carve out time to play if in the neighborhood - Harbour Town, Greenbrier courses, Glen Mills, Kiawah Osprey, Harvester

4.  Everything else, I'll play them, but would rather play somewhere else.

VV falls in category #2 and if you combine VV, We-Ko-Pa and another course on par from the area the combination climbs up into category #1.  As far as public courses near Scottsdale I've played, I'd rank We-Ko-Pa, Greyhawk and VV at the top, with a significant drop off before Troon North, TPC, Raven, Wildfire, Eagle Mountain, Sun Ridge Canyon, etc.  I'd like to see what VV would look and play like if given the same loving care as the WKP courses.  For a $60 fee, the only course I've played that bests it on a fun to cash scale is Wildhorse.

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Matt_Ward

Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2010, 10:16:38 AM »
Sven:

Like the spread analysis based on the category dimensions you mentioned.

VV gets little attention because it's relatively isolated and the place does little, if any, exposure elements when measured against the likes of Troon and the others in and around the Pima Road area.

The key for VV will be in keeping the course elements contemporary even when the housing (whenever that might happen) emerges.

On a Doak scale what # would you give VV ?

Tony Weiler

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2010, 10:41:52 AM »
Matt, I know you didn't ask me  ;) but I'd give VV a Doak 7.  That would comport with Sven's "drive 2 hours."  I really agree with him on his desert courses rankings.  WKP, VV, and Grayhawk are my favorites.  I've played all he mentioned except Troon.  I know that might limit my background, but next trip.

Sven, is Wildhorse that good???  I may have to get there next Fall in conjunction with my planned trip to Ballyneal.  Only 150 miles away, or so. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2010, 12:05:30 PM »
Probably a 6 or a 7 on the Doak scale.  There are some mighty good 6's in that book.  Would need a few more rounds out there to decide on a number.

Wildhorse was a blast to play.  If you're going to NW CO and you have the time, highly recommend taking the drive to play Wildhorse and its neighbor Bayside.  There is something mystical about the setting at Wildhorse.  Few places I'd rather be when finishing a round under a setting sun.  Very walkable, great flow to the course and ideal conditions (meaning fast and firm).  At this point I'll stop writing, as I can already hear those in the know saying I've said too much.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

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