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Jud_T

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Phoenix Golf
« on: November 30, 2009, 03:39:09 PM »
Heading to Phoenix for the first time around the holidays....Probably have 3 days for golf...looking for feedback:

1. Thinking 36 each at We-Ko-Pa and Talking Stick.  (is this possible?, short days, cool mornings?)

2. Is Troon North worth a play? (have relatives there)

3. Has anyone been out to Apache Stronghold since it reopened? How far is it? Is it worth a trip for reconnaisance purposes?

Any other suggestions or color would be appreciated....
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2009, 03:55:20 PM »
There are many threads on this very topic. The general consensus is:

1. TSN is much more worthwhile than TSS.
2. WekoPa is a must play.Both courses but if you only have time for one, then the C&C course.
3. Troon North is very expensive and housing intrusive. If you can get a discount on their website, give it a try.
4. AS is a trip. I would say the warmer months are much better for conditioning than now.
5. Vista Verde is a very good choice. No amenities but a very good course. Discounts are available at golfnow.com

That's it for publics. Other courses are obviously available but the above are the most talked about here.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 04:37:45 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
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Jud_T

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2009, 04:05:38 PM »
steve,

thanx...
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Bill_McBride

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2009, 04:13:03 PM »
Quote from: Jud Tigerman on November 30, 2009, 04:05:38 PM
steve,

thanx...

Jud, Apache Stronghold is 90 minutes from Scottsdale, more from Phoenix, a long but eventually lovely drive when you get up in the mountains.  But agreed, will be better playing conditions in the spring most likely.

The days are short and the rounds long in Phoenix/Scottsdale in the winter.  36 will be a stretch.................
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Carl Nichols

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 04:24:15 PM »
Jud:
In addition to Steve's points, I'd add three thoughts/suggestions, based on a trip to Scottsdale last November.  First, assuming you are amenable to walking, try to get the first time out on WKP Saguaro one morning and walk it using their push carts -- it's a really easy walk, and if you're out first, you can guarantee that you'll have time for a second round.  Second, I was underwhelmed by the Cholla course, and preferred our twilight 2nd round at Saguaro to our round there.  Third, Vista Verde is/was really uncrowded, and we were able to fly around it -- though I didn't think it's that walkable.  If you were to head out to V.V. (it's pretty far from town), you might want to think about playing 36 there.
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Jason Topp

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2009, 04:26:43 PM »
You may want to consider elevation in order to get 36 a day in.  1000 feet equals approximately 3.5 degrees temperature difference.  My guess is that the Carefree courses (like Troon and Vista Verde) and We-Ko-Pa are in the 3500 foot range.  Talking Stick is quite a bit lower.  I would guess 1000 feet.

Other lower elevation courses are generally in the southern part of the metro which is a long drive from Scottsdale but not bad from Phoenix or Tempe.  Consider Southern Dunes and Whirlwind (36 holes).  I like both courses although Whirlwind is near a car race track.
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Jud_T

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2009, 04:31:45 PM »
Thanx guys! Much appreciated...
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Kenny Baer

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2009, 08:05:09 PM »
I am going to Scottsdale on Wednesday-Friday for business/fun. We are playing 2x at the course at the Westin (for free), what do you guys think of it? Should we try to play somewhere else or is the Westin course okay?
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Andy Troeger

Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2009, 08:40:10 PM »
I really liked We-Ko-Pa Saguaro. I think it is the finest course in the valley, public or private. After that, I agree with the suggestion of Vista Verde. If you like Coore/Crenshaw then Talking Stick North is worth seeing, I haven't played the South. I can't say that I plan to go back to TSN a second time at winter rates.

The course I really enjoyed that rarely gets mentioned is Gold Canyon--Dinosaur Mountain. I have heard they have really built up the homes on it in the past five years, but when I played it ten years ago I really enjoyed it. I should probably go back and find out for myself.  Apache Stronghold is worth playing at least once, even with the conditioning issues.

I also think Longbow in Mesa is worthwhile. I wasn't a huge fan of Troon North's New Pinnacle.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2009, 08:47:28 PM »
Kenny,

Kierland's 3 nines are nice but really don't present any architectural interest. However, free is good.
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mark Smolens

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2009, 09:05:05 PM »
Don't know about conditioning issues since there have been links here to issues with the course management, but Papago is fun and cheap rates accessible at golfnow.com.

Second recommendations about Vista Verde and Saguaro.  Tho it doesn't get much love here, see above, Troon North is still the gold standard for upscale publics, but can be very pricey.  I also like the Whirlwind courses, and have had success in getting around twice in a day at most times of the year (tho frost can sometimes be a problem).
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Jason Topp

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2009, 09:12:25 PM »
Quote from: Kenny Baer on November 30, 2009, 08:05:09 PM
I am going to Scottsdale on Wednesday-Friday for business/fun. We are playing 2x at the course at the Westin (for free), what do you guys think of it? Should we try to play somewhere else or is the Westin course okay?

Good condition, ok layout when I played it. I would play it for free over paying at other courses.
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Mark Kinney

Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2009, 09:23:27 PM »
Jud,

I have to agree with Bill re: 36.  In a normal year, there really isn't the time for it at this time of year.  Frost delays are possible, but do not occur everyday.  That being said, this is NOT a normal season down here and the courses (especially VV) may not be so busy as to prevent playing twice.  Where are you staying (what part of town) while in PHX??

Jason,
FYI, the courses are at approx. 2000ft.  The highest pt. at Whisper Rock is just over 2200, so that's what I base this on, and you definitely notice a few degree temperature difference from the Valley floor.  However, in my experience the frost delays are not significantly different (maybe it's the dry air or something).

Kenny,
The Westin Kierland is pretty good.  For free it's excellent.  Of course, I have a fondness for the place as it is where I passed my PAT.  What always amazes me is that before the property was developed it was COMPLETELY flat. 
The resort is really nice, and if your in the mood for some good old fashioned Cougar watchin', not much beats the nearby Ocean Club on Thur/Fri nights.
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Jud_T

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2009, 09:27:39 PM »
Downtown Phoenix
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mark Kinney

Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2009, 09:37:24 PM »
Quote from: Jud Tigerman on November 30, 2009, 09:27:39 PM
Downtown Phoenix
Jud,

FYI, your looking at a 45min - 1hr drive minimum to WeKoPa or Vista Verde, and that is not counting the morning commute.  Talking Stick should be around 30min.
If you don't want to drive too far one of the days, I recommend both the Raven @ South Mountain and Legacy Golf Resort (the LPGA had an event there one year).  Both are traditional layouts, so if you're looking for the "desert experience" they won't fit the bill.  However, they are fun mid-priced courses (discounts through golfnow.com).  Also relatively nearby is the already mentioned Papago GC.
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Tom Yost

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2009, 08:10:59 AM »
We inquired about a tee time at Apache Stronghold mid-October and were told the back nine was closed and had been for some time.  Don't know if that has changed.

36 holes in late December is possible only with best case scenario:  early start (no frost delay), a reasonable pace of play and grabbing a quick bite for lunch.




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Jerry Kluger

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2009, 10:03:41 AM »
The best deal out there was the second course at the TPC - I am having a senior moment remembering it.  It's a good track and really cheap if you walk - it is unusual but they actually encourage walking.
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Roger Wolfe

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2009, 10:40:23 AM »
We went in May for the 3rd time.

I would play WeKoPa everyday and skip everything else.  Inexpensive... no houses... great shape (no water restrictions).  We tried to go to Vista Verde last time but they were in serious financial trouble and were only doing a 10am crossover.  Might be different now that its peak season.

Saguaro and Cholla are just great.

Troon North is good but pricey... play Pinnacle if you must.  They have taken the best of the two original routings and mixed them together.  Monument is very "housy."  Pinnacle is the true experience you would be looking for (up and down the mountain).

Stay away from SunRidge Canyon.  Great people and good layout but the desert is not maintained on the edge of the fairways.  Unlike Troon and WeKoPa if you miss by one foot... the ball is gone in a dense, hedge-like mess.  Eagle Mountain is a hacker's dream... every hole is a giant bowl.

Regardless of where you play... AZ golf is special!  Have fun!
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Jud_T

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2009, 10:46:17 AM »
Thanx for all the help! Really looking forward to it.  Can't believe I've never made it out there...
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tony Weiler

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2009, 11:36:26 AM »
Can't go wrong with Vista Verde.  I really love this course.  I also was underwelmed by the Cholla at We Ko Pa, but did enjoy the Saguaro.  Can't comment on the 36 in a day this time of year, but good responses so far.  Raven at So. Mt. is also fun, but I'd play twice at Vista before there.  I also agree on Sunridge Canyon, hated it.  I did like the Whirlwind and good price. 
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Cory Lewis

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2009, 12:16:05 PM »
I have a somewhat related questions for all the Phoenix/Arizona experts.  I'm going to be taging along with the girlfriend to a conference in June next year.  Are most of the private courses still open in June?  I know Desert Mountain closes a couple of their courses in the summer.  Thanks for the help.
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Jud_T

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2009, 01:08:06 PM »
Spoke to my buddy out there.  He favors WeKoPa and Dinosour Mountain, and also plays out of Pinnacle Peak.  Thanks for all the color, I will report back afterwards...
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Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Andy Troeger

Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2009, 07:17:33 PM »
I forgot about SunRidge Canyon. It wouldn't be at the top of my list, but I appear to have liked it much more than the previous posters. I would prefer it to Troon North and probably Talking Stick North. Its definitely behind Saguaro and Vista Verde, however.
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Mike Lacey

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2009, 08:23:56 PM »
Quote
I have a somewhat related questions for all the Phoenix/Arizona experts.  I'm going to be taging along with the girlfriend to a conference in June next year.  Are most of the private courses still open in June?  I know Desert Mountain closes a couple of their courses in the summer.  Thanks for the help.

Most clubs are open all summer.  Some will take that time to do some significant construction though.  I would make inquiries as to condition.   

Last summer, Vista Verde's last tee time was 10-ish. 

June can be pretty toasty.  You can prepare for it by sticking your head inside a blast furnace for 4 hours or so. 
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Kenny Baer

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Re: Phoenix Golf
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2009, 09:35:49 PM »
How far is the Westin from We-Ko-Pa?
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