Pencil & Scorecard: What's the problem?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I have watched this thread with some amusement.  Since Bill has left the building, can I just clarify something?  Is it your position (as it appears to be) that there is no time saving by conceding, say, a 2 foot putt, as against requiring the player to line it up and make the putt?  How about if, as happened in a club knock out match I played earlier this season, I'm off the green in 3 and my opponent is stiff in two?  Is there no time saving in my conceding his putt and both of us picking up, without him marking his ball, me chipping on, marking my ball, removing the flag, lining up my putt, taking it (and holing or not) then requiring him to tap in for the win? 

Doesn't this all depend on the group in front of you? How does it translate over the course of 18 holes? Isn't your situation more caused by the relative skills of the participants and their habits and not the format?

Remember guys, the plural of anecdote is NOT data. I think, if you all tried, you can pull out similar time saving situations in medal play as well.

Mark, it comes down to how players approach the game and their shots, and then their skills, and THEN their opponent's decisions for them in match play. Everyone seems to be presenting their positions in terms of one shot, or one hole with little consideration to the whole thing - and completely ignoring the fact that what gets the players in these situations is not match play. I am certain you didn't want to be off the green in three with your opponent stiff in 3. What happens if you're both playing well and there are no concession situations? How does Match Play speed the game then?

How about the order of play in Match Play? At what point in time does that slow down the match? Ready golf, you say? Well isn't order of play more important in Match Play than Medal Play? How come the match play side can arbitrarily throw rules out and not the medal play side?

My whole point? In the grand scheme of things (rounds, not holes or shots) pace of play is going to be 98% player and group habits, and then a division between format and course setup.

[Kyle Harris]

Mark/Sean

I think that he feels that he cannot concede to reality on this as it is one area where match play has an advantage over stroke play. It does not make one superior to the other or deal a fatal blow to the whole concept of stroke play.

Giles

Giles,

Because the arguments are rather poorly constructed. Basing the whole thing on anecdote and decisions players make in an attempt to say Match Play will get you around faster.

The big "if" there is if both players want it to. Maybe you guys don't play too many not-very-exclusive places, but I've been stuck behind many a match, in a foursome playing it all the way to the whole, where guys were grinding out each 4 footer with little to no conceding.

[Sean_A]

Kyle,

I have watched this thread with some amusement.  Since Bill has left the building, can I just clarify something?  Is it your position (as it appears to be) that there is no time saving by conceding, say, a 2 foot putt, as against requiring the player to line it up and make the putt?  How about if, as happened in a club knock out match I played earlier this season, I'm off the green in 3 and my opponent is stiff in two?  Is there no time saving in my conceding his putt and both of us picking up, without him marking his ball, me chipping on, marking my ball, removing the flag, lining up my putt, taking it (and holing or not) then requiring him to tap in for the win?  

Doesn't this all depend on the group in front of you? How does it translate over the course of 18 holes? Isn't your situation more caused by the relative skills of the participants and their habits and not the format?

Remember guys, the plural of anecdote is NOT data. I think, if you all tried, you can pull out similar time saving situations in medal play as well.

Mark, it comes down to how players approach the game and their shots, and then their skills, and THEN their opponent's decisions for them in match play. Everyone seems to be presenting their positions in terms of one shot, or one hole with little consideration to the whole thing - and completely ignoring the fact that what gets the players in these situations is not match play. I am certain you didn't want to be off the green in three with your opponent stiff in 3. What happens if you're both playing well and there are no concession situations? How does Match Play speed the game then?

How about the order of play in Match Play? At what point in time does that slow down the match? Ready golf, you say? Well isn't order of play more important in Match Play than Medal Play? How come the match play side can arbitrarily throw rules out and not the medal play side?

My whole point? In the grand scheme of things (rounds, not holes or shots) pace of play is going to be 98% player and group habits, and then a division between format and course setup.

Kyle

I agree with you to a certain extent.  Only I would say format can account for as much as 25% of speed of play and in the case of Foursomes, maybe 50%.  

I am not saying that one is better or superior than another.  All I am saying is given the realities of medal play, I would much prefer to play matchplay or if in a large group, Stableford.  Alll things being equal, these two formats can be FAR quicker to play - it isn't just a myth.  I would also say that Americans tend to putt out, even in matchplay, when they are out of the hole.  This of course means they are technically playing matchplay, but with a medal play mindset - very bad news imo. 


Ciao    

[Kyle Harris]

Sean,

Would you say Foursomes is more equivalent to a twosome? I've played the format a handful of times and enjoyed it, but with only two balls in play I can't see comparing Foursomes with a Four-Ball.

Stablefords are great - I just played in my first two months ago at the Flynn Invitational at Lancaster CC and I think it's fair to say the pace was similar, but perhaps that was because so many people from out of town were seeing the course for the first time.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Would you say Foursomes is more equivalent to a twosome? I've played the format a handful of times and enjoyed it, but with only two balls in play I can't see comparing Foursomes with a Four-Ball.

Stablefords are great - I just played in my first two months ago at the Flynn Invitational at Lancaster CC and I think it's fair to say the pace was similar, but perhaps that was because so many people from out of town were seeing the course for the first time.

Kyle

Ideally, 4somes is even quicker than a singles match.  It really comes down to how fast you walk!  Sometimes, when guys are flying, 4somes can seem like a forced march.  I am all for speed of play, but there has to be a happy balance.  For my part, a singles game is very comfortably done in 3 hours (maybe a tad less) and 4ball in 3.5 hours.  These are on courses which are not long or brutal mind you.  Even a 2ball of 15 cappers can find themselves in all sorts of trouble on a long, tough course and not roll in before 4 hours.  This is why tee selection is so important.  Its another area where many Americans get it wrong and think playing further back has to be the only way to play the game.  I have said it before, but on cleverly designed and maintained courses, very, very few golfers need to step back much beyond 6300 yards and the vast majority of golfers shouldn't be playing at over 6000 yards. 

Yes, like matchplay, many people putt out in Stableford when they are out of the hole.  I don't like this sort of thing and would prefer if folks want to play out then drop in a convenient spot to play from which doesn't hold up play.  Also, don't expect guys to hang about while you are putting for nothing - just put the flag in when you go.

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

Sean,

Would you say Foursomes is more equivalent to a twosome? I've played the format a handful of times and enjoyed it, but with only two balls in play I can't see comparing Foursomes with a Four-Ball.

Stablefords are great - I just played in my first two months ago at the Flynn Invitational at Lancaster CC and I think it's fair to say the pace was similar, but perhaps that was because so many people from out of town were seeing the course for the first time.

Kyle

Ideally, 4somes is even quicker than a singles match.  It really comes down to how fast you walk!  Sometimes, when guys are flying, 4somes can seem like a forced march.  I am all for speed of play, but there has to be a happy balance.  For my part, a singles game is very comfortably done in 3 hours (maybe a tad less) and 4ball in 3.5 hours.  These are on courses which are not long or brutal mind you.  Even a 2ball of 15 cappers can find themselves in all sorts of trouble on a long, tough course and not roll in before 4 hours.  This is why tee selection is so important.  Its another area where many Americans get it wrong and think playing further back has to be the only way to play the game.  I have said it before, but on cleverly designed and maintained courses, very, very few golfers need to step back much beyond 6300 yards and the vast majority of golfers shouldn't be playing at over 6000 yards. 

Yes, like matchplay, many people putt out in Stableford when they are out of the hole.  I don't like this sort of thing and would prefer if folks want to play out then drop in a convenient spot to play from which doesn't hold up play.  Also, don't expect guys to hang about while you are putting for nothing - just put the flag in when you go.

Ciao

Sean,

Next time you're in Philadelphia I'd be happy to take you to two of the best courses in the area (IMO), and both are under 6000 yards. And no, Merion West is not on that list.

My treat, consider it payment for the Tom Waits CD.

-Kyle

[Scott Warren]

Ideally, 4somes is even quicker than a singles match.  

Indeed. On the morning that Giles and I played a singles match at Buda, we were first off with Chappers letting us hit our second shots on two before the first group of foresomes teed off.

We were moving swiftly (finished well under 3hrs) and still by the 14th the first foursomes group had caught up to us.

[Mark Pearce]

Kyle,

Even with two players playing well (as we both were in the match I mentioned, which I won 1 up against a former club champion, 6 over par (that's 6 better than handicap)) there are always concession opportunities.  There are always tap ins or two footers that can, and should, be conceded.  Of course it is not match play that gets the situation but it IS matchplay that provides the ability to make a concession, rather than have the player putt out.  In the case I gave.  I COULD have chipped and puuted for my 5 and let him tap in for 3, that's what would have happened in medal play.  In match play it would have been discourteous and caused us to take longer to play our match than it did.

Foursomes, by the way, should be faster than a two ball, as players can walk ahead of their partners to be ready to play the next shot.  Some courses(Muirfield is an example) have cut throughs from the previous green to the next fairway, so that the players in each pair who are not driving the hole can walk to the fairway.  This not only speeds things up but reduces the risk of lost balls, as they can act as forecaddies on the drives.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

Would you say Foursomes is more equivalent to a twosome? I've played the format a handful of times and enjoyed it, but with only two balls in play I can't see comparing Foursomes with a Four-Ball.

Stablefords are great - I just played in my first two months ago at the Flynn Invitational at Lancaster CC and I think it's fair to say the pace was similar, but perhaps that was because so many people from out of town were seeing the course for the first time.

Kyle

Ideally, 4somes is even quicker than a singles match.  It really comes down to how fast you walk!  Sometimes, when guys are flying, 4somes can seem like a forced march.  I am all for speed of play, but there has to be a happy balance.  For my part, a singles game is very comfortably done in 3 hours (maybe a tad less) and 4ball in 3.5 hours.  These are on courses which are not long or brutal mind you.  Even a 2ball of 15 cappers can find themselves in all sorts of trouble on a long, tough course and not roll in before 4 hours.  This is why tee selection is so important.  Its another area where many Americans get it wrong and think playing further back has to be the only way to play the game.  I have said it before, but on cleverly designed and maintained courses, very, very few golfers need to step back much beyond 6300 yards and the vast majority of golfers shouldn't be playing at over 6000 yards. 

Yes, like matchplay, many people putt out in Stableford when they are out of the hole.  I don't like this sort of thing and would prefer if folks want to play out then drop in a convenient spot to play from which doesn't hold up play.  Also, don't expect guys to hang about while you are putting for nothing - just put the flag in when you go.

Ciao

Sean,

Next time you're in Philadelphia I'd be happy to take you to two of the best courses in the area (IMO), and both are under 6000 yards. And no, Merion West is not on that list.

My treat, consider it payment for the Tom Waits CD.

-Kyle

Kyle

Very fine!  I have already forgotten the name of one course near Philly there was a big thread on recently.  If I would have known about that course I think I could have been persuaded to give it a go.  It looked a bit extreme, but thats the chance you gotta take now and again if you want to retain some character on hilly sites.  

Ciao  

[Giles Payne]

Scott

Did you spot Marks little matchplay result - you can add him to me and chappers to the guys you don't want to let get ahead!

Kyle - Mark and I are good friends and have played a lot of golf together. We tend to play match play and would rarely take more that three hours to play a round unless held up. We both play the vast majority of our golf in the UK where, other than medals, we would tend to play match play. The way that we have both been brought up to play is that if you are not in the hole you pick up and do not get in the way of others who are.
If you have no chance of winning the hole you concede promptly and move on.
Puts are conceded when there is little chance of them being missed.
When a put is conceded you pick up and move on (unless, for instance it might be for a birdie in which case you may have a very quick look and put, but I mean very quick)
All of this lends to a faster pace of play - it would be considered very discourteous to play every single shot and finish every hole.

I was also very interesting to see Scott's comment in his Get to Know you thread about the relative pace of UK play - I suspect that it is something to do with the risk of inclement weather and the lure of either lunch or the nineteenth hole.

[Jud_T]

Sean,

I agree that there are few things more infuriating than people putting out after having been conceded a putt.  If it's not the first green and you need to test the speed, pick up the damn ball and move on...

[Jud_T]

Following my round last weekend, where I didn't keep score for the first time in my life, I was twice asked how I played, and when the response was "pretty well but missed a 6 footer for all the money on the last", the followup question both times was "well, what did you shoot?"....There really is a serious pencil & scorecard bias here in the states.  I think I'm really coming around to the U.K. handicap model.  In fact, for the most part I prefer their courses as well.  Hell, I'm relocating...