[Tim Bert]

3 and 12 at Yale.

[Ben Sims]

Recently played the Alps #11 at Lookout Mountain GC.  I thought it was very good.  The ridgeline only affords a view of a couple distant mountains, and a large flagpole as the aiming spot.  There is no bunker in front of the green, which allows for run up shots on a terrifyingly sloped back to front green.  I hit about a 270 drive, and was left with a knockdown seven iron (150-ish) into the wind.  Sparsely bunkered, fear inducing, and great fun.  

As an aside, Gil Hanse has plans in the works for "re-renovating" the course by adding some bunkers, and expanding the greens out to their original size per Raynor's plans, etc.  In that plan, he has a cross bunker on the Alps hole.  But I like the run-up version better.

[Cristian]

Perhaps the mother of all (inland) blind approaches:

http://www.gleneagles.com/golf/golf-courses/king's-course-/course-guide/hole-3

Great fun though.

Anyone has a picture of this hole?

[Joe Bausch]

I really like a par 4 where you desire to have your ball in the proper part(s) of the FW to see the green.  Here are a couple of examples from two courses in the Philly area I like:

Here the pic taken from the left part of the fw, leaving a pretty much unobstructed view to the green:



Here a pic on a different par 4 where when on the right side of the fw, the view is obscured.

[Jeff Goldman]

Long par 4s with the green set back on a hill is a classic form of long 4.  The old 18th hole at Oak Hill is one example, where the hill sloped towards the green, so that regular players only needed to reach the top with some momentum to have a chance to roll it onto the green, while better players would hit an aerial shot for the green with less margin for error.  You can see the hole on highlight films of Trevino's win.  The hole was changed after that and the green put forward to the edge.  Too bad.  9 on the South Course at Olympia Fields is an example of the hole now.

[Joe Bentham]

I also like holes that make you hit a certain part of the FW to afford a view of the green..I like holes that reward thought on the tee.
But I'm interested in holes where the green is COMPLETELY out of view from everywhere in the fairway.  The Alps holes described are the type I'm interested in.
Do these holes work?  How hard is the shot for a player who hasn't seen it before?  And whats the point of a neat green complex and a cool kickboard onto the green if the player can't see it?

[Phil Benedict]

Joe, all Alps holes built by Macdonald and his two cohorts were blind seconds.

In general, about their Alps holes, the were one of the long par 4s on their courses and required long second shots, usually very long second shots

average length in today's world?  a good length would be 440+ .... perhaps 425-yards when they were built in the 'teens and 'twenties

often (on their courses) clubs looking to lengthen their courses for "scorecard yardage" moved Alps tees back leaving them a short iron in to the Alps/punchbowl green  .............  obviously wrong

George,

Aren't "Punchbowl" holes typically blind on the approach ?

Obviously # 16 at NGLA comes to mind, but, I don't recall many others where they putting surface was entirely visible, if visible at all.

The Punchbowl hole at Sleepy Hollow is certainly blind.

[Jim_Coleman]

#10 at Kernwood - a Ross in Salem, Mass.  Not sure it's ever been mentioned here.

[David_Tepper]

Golspie GC (10 miles north of Dornoch) has 2 short par-4's (#5 & #7) with totally blind 2nd shots in the green. I think they are fun holes. They certainly are easier to navigate with a little local knowledge, although local knowledge does not necessarily make them easier to play.

The 18th hole at Golspie is also a blind 2nd shot par-4, but it is a brute of a hole, 450 yards or so. 
 

[TEPaul]

#14 North Berwick (Perfection!! !!  !!!).

[BCrosby]

#14 North Berwick (Perfection!! !!  !!!).

Joshua Crane reviled the hole for its blind approach.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

Yeah, Josh sure didn't seem to like blindness at all. In that vein, did you read that article in Golf Illustrated on one of these recent threads by Joshua on The Lido? I saw it a couple of years ago but I'd forgotten about it. It gives you just another glimpse of how much he didn't like it.

To be honest, in my opinion, the general panning of blindness in golf and architecture that seemed to happen pretty early on and seemed to be subscribed to by so many just might be one of the greatest travesties and tragedies ever foisted on golf and golf architecture! It seems to me the only one who actually and actively seemed to defend it in print right on through was Max Behr!

[BCrosby]

Blindness certainly has gotten a bum rap over the decades. MacK had mixed feelings about it. It's one of those ideas in gca that is sooo easy to criticize and soooo risky to defend. Especially if you are an architect looking for commissions. But when used well, blindness can be a terrific and fun feature.

The first hole at Athens CC (Ross) comes to mind. The ideal drive is right center. If you bail too far left to avoid the trees on the right (and there is plenty of fw to the left), your approach to the green is totally blind. A wonderfully simple, strategic use of blindness.

Bob   

[Scott Szabo]

Hole #10 at Ballyneal is a wonderful hole, slight dogleg to the right where the brave will challenge the fairway bunker on the inside of the dogleg and be rewarded with a level stance with a view of the green.  A ball towards the center or left side of the fairway will catch the bowl and leave the golfer with a long, blind second shot. 

I don't have any pictures to show this but there have been many posted on this site already.

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