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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2009, 10:49:42 AM »
OK- fess up, who's played all of 'em? I'm on the other line with my travel agent as I'm only at 23 (adjusted rankings).... :-*
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2009, 10:54:11 AM »
Carl...

100% voluntary for sure.

I would be interested in hearing a variety of opinions on these courses.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Matthew MacKay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2009, 10:59:56 AM »
Nice work, Ian. If possible, I'd be really interested to see the entire list of 400+ courses, using raw data, no restrictions (I'm guessing most would have been played by at least 10 people anyway).

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2009, 11:02:06 AM »
Great work Ian.  Thank you

(MPCC and RME the lucky ones IMO).
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2009, 11:13:20 AM »
How Spyglass continues to entrance people is fascinating.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2009, 11:16:21 AM »
Ian,

nice work. I'd love to get my hands on the data and run it through the statistical methodology used for the Golf Blog 100, just for comparison purposes.

Jim

He's ALIVE!!!!! :o ;D :)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2009, 11:28:04 AM »
To my eye they look like pretty solid lists.

Jim Colton

Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2009, 11:29:04 AM »
Ian,

nice work. I'd love to get my hands on the data and run it through the statistical methodology used for the Golf Blog 100, just for comparison purposes.

Jim

He's ALIVE!!!!! :o ;D :)

You missed me, JC?  I've been busy working on the Tommy Deez Fathead!

I spent 40 hours last week driving from Chicago to Florida and back with my wife and 3 kids (all last minute due to a death in the family).  Don't you hate it when real world gets in the way of time spent on GCA?


JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2009, 11:34:06 AM »
Ian,

nice work. I'd love to get my hands on the data and run it through the statistical methodology used for the Golf Blog 100, just for comparison purposes.

Jim

He's ALIVE!!!!! :o ;D :)

You missed me, JC?  I've been busy working on the Tommy Deez Fathead!

I spent 40 hours last week driving from Chicago to Florida and back with my wife and 3 kids (all last minute due to a death in the family).  Don't you hate it when real world gets in the way of time spent on GCA?



I have and I cant wait to purchase a Tom Dizzle Fathead.

My apologies on the death in the family.  I can sympathize with the driving as 2 weeks from now I'll be doing the Naples to East Lansing thing with my wife and 3 kids.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2009, 11:42:05 AM »
How Spyglass continues to entrance people is fascinating.

Ditto for TPC Sawgrass.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2009, 11:51:25 AM »
"S.D." = ??? Statistical deviation?  Please elaborate.



Bill,

Its "Standard Deviation" and pretty typical to only use data points within 2 Standard deviations of the mean.  You can read more about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2009, 11:54:08 AM »
Ian,

Fantastic work, well done...thanks for the big effort in doing this.

Now on to watching the fur fly a little bit.

1)  Which course is the most notable omission?
2)  Which course which made the list seems either far too high or far too low?

I agree that it seems odd to see some of these courses make the list with mins of 4 and 5s.  And to boot they were also only 2 SDs or less away as well.  Ouch!!!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2009, 12:17:32 PM »
"S.D." = ??? Statistical deviation?  Please elaborate.



Bill,

Its "Standard Deviation" and pretty typical to only use data points within 2 Standard deviations of the mean.  You can read more about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation

I vaguely remember that from almost 50 years ago in Stat 101.......

So the highest in that first list is 1.4 (Teeth of the Dog) and the lowest is 0.7 (several tied).

Please analyze for me.

More disagreement about Teeth and less for the others in terms of where they are ranked?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2009, 12:21:44 PM »
"S.D." = ??? Statistical deviation?  Please elaborate.



Bill,

Its "Standard Deviation" and pretty typical to only use data points within 2 Standard deviations of the mean.  You can read more about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation

I vaguely remember that from almost 50 years ago in Stat 101.......

So the highest in that first list is 1.4 (Teeth of the Dog) and the lowest is 0.7 (several tied).

Please analyze for me.

More disagreement about Teeth and less for the others in terms of where they are ranked?

Bill,

In a nutshell thats pretty true.  A set of data with a small SD will mean the data points were tightly bunched and visa versa for the ones with a larger SD.  In simple terms, it shows how much variation there is from the "average" (mean).

This would be a great way to measure polarizing courses vs non-polarizing.

P.S  CPCs SD is the lowest at .4 and it also happens to be the #1 course on that list.  Thats pretty significant evidence of its greatness as just about everyone gave it a very high rating.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 12:24:03 PM by Kalen Braley »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2009, 12:27:10 PM »
"S.D." = ??? Statistical deviation?  Please elaborate.



Bill,

Its "Standard Deviation" and pretty typical to only use data points within 2 Standard deviations of the mean.  You can read more about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation

I vaguely remember that from almost 50 years ago in Stat 101.......

So the highest in that first list is 1.4 (Teeth of the Dog) and the lowest is 0.7 (several tied).

Please analyze for me.

More disagreement about Teeth and less for the others in terms of where they are ranked?

Bill,

In a nutshell thats pretty true.  A set of data with a small SD will mean the data points were tightly bunched and visa versa for the ones with a larger SD.  In simple terms, it shows how much variation there is from the "average" (mean).

This would be a great way to measure polarizing courses vs non-polarizing.

P.S  CPCs SD is the lowest at .4 and it also happens to be the #1 course on that list.  Thats pretty significant evidence of its greatness as just about everyone gave it a very high rating.

Got it.   I missed CPC's .4 but agree there's little disagreement about its place in the pantheon.

It's still pretty amazing that some great courses were given 4, 5, 6 ratings, but I have to think there were far too many 10's.  A 9 is a whale of a course.

Ian Andrew

Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2009, 12:31:57 PM »
By the way, thanks for saying goodbye to me and Robin in Aussie

I thought you would have seen me off at 5:00am Saturday morning, but no.... just an empty lobby. ;D I said goodbye on Friday night - when we had the photo taken - that I posted on the other thread.


As for the rankings....

It can't be legit without Royal Sydney in the top 10 right!  ;D

Honestly, I like the results because they seem to match what I like, but I know that's not realistic either. I like Tom Paul's Big World Theory and think our list is a little biased. There are far too many 10's in this list to be realistic and I think there was a degree of voting done to “project” a course to where they hoped it would go.

I ran the Canadian rankings back in the mid-90’s and the way many people vote is to achieve an end rather than to reflect what they see. A number of the 10’s suggest that this was done here too.

That said, I think this was fun and I think Ian should be commended for his list – it added to my list of must plays – which is the real reason I like lists. It gives me direction on where I should go and what I must see.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2009, 12:35:30 PM »
"S.D." = ??? Statistical deviation?  Please elaborate.



Bill,

Its "Standard Deviation" and pretty typical to only use data points within 2 Standard deviations of the mean.  You can read more about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_deviation

I vaguely remember that from almost 50 years ago in Stat 101.......

So the highest in that first list is 1.4 (Teeth of the Dog) and the lowest is 0.7 (several tied).

Please analyze for me.

More disagreement about Teeth and less for the others in terms of where they are ranked?

Bill,

In a nutshell thats pretty true.  A set of data with a small SD will mean the data points were tightly bunched and visa versa for the ones with a larger SD.  In simple terms, it shows how much variation there is from the "average" (mean).

This would be a great way to measure polarizing courses vs non-polarizing.

P.S  CPCs SD is the lowest at .4 and it also happens to be the #1 course on that list.  Thats pretty significant evidence of its greatness as just about everyone gave it a very high rating.

Got it.   I missed CPC's .4 but agree there's little disagreement about its place in the pantheon.

It's still pretty amazing that some great courses were given 4, 5, 6 ratings, but I have to think there were far too many 10's.  A 9 is a whale of a course.

Bill,

I was also very surprised to see so many 10s on the list.....but a 10 probably means different things to different people even if the Doak Scale criteria was supposed to be used.

Even courses like Crystal Downs and Ballyneal being 6s? or Pasatiempo as a 5....that seems utterly ridiculous....and that list didn't even include the outliers either.  Safe to say some of the courses got rankings lower than 4 which is beyond absurd and axe grinding could be the only explanation.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2009, 12:37:20 PM »
Ian,

Can we get some you to list some of the more notable outliers on both ends?  Either too high for a not-so-great course or too low for a top notch one!!   ;D

TEPaul

Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2009, 12:39:19 PM »
Ian:

I'm glad you explained that. I think it is God-damned rude as hell of Brian Phillips not to have set his alarm clock and gotten down to the lobby to see you off and say TaTa and God Speed and have a good flight and keep it firm and fast and all that when you were in the lobby at 5am on Saturday morning in Australia!

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2009, 01:39:51 PM »
Wow! Hopefully I haven't missed anyone here.

Brian:
The only question that was asked about the rater was his/her GCA user name, so I don't think reporting rater's location would be possible.  An interesting point for discussion, however.

Peter:
Here is a list of courses that would have made the "raw" Top 100 but did not get enough votes:

Remedy Oak, 1 vote, 9.0
Hirono, 4 votes, 8.3
Morfontaine. 6 votes, 8.2
Kawana (Fuji), 4 votes, 7.8
St. Germain, 4 votes, 7.8
Hamilton, 8 votes, 7.6
Ellerston, 2 votes, 7.5
Nanea, 2 votes, 7.5


Mark P:
I will release the rest of the courses but honestly I don't feel like checking each course to see its location and making a new list.  ;)  Maybe someone else will take this on.

Kalen:
I may be misunderstanding you here, but the min and max you see on the table are "raw," not adjusted.  However, a few "1's" on some of the ballots were omitted as they were likely mistakes or malicious (if anyone really thinks Augusta National is a 1, sorry for deleting your vote).  So you are looking at all but the most egregious outliers.

Jim:
I would be glad to send you the raw file (with names omitted of course).  I will do that today assuming your e-mail is available for me to see on the board.

To all looking for a printable format and more courses:
Any suggestions on how to make the format better?

One more interesting point:
I believe at the beginning of this project Tom D suggested that a vote of 8 or higher is essentially a vote for a Top 100 course.  He appeared concerned that voters without experience would vote too many courses too high.  Interestingly, the 100th course on both lists is rated at only 7.4, and there are only 49 courses that received an 8.0 or higher rating in the "raw" rankings.  Any thoughts on this?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2009, 01:44:28 PM »
Ian,

My mistake, I had thought the scores in the 1st list also were set to the same SD criteria as the 2nd list....makes sense now.

With as much luv as Rustic Canyon gets, how close was it to making these lists?

Kalen

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2009, 01:58:38 PM »
Thanks Ian!  When the complete list is posted, people can organize the courses how they see fit.




Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2009, 01:59:18 PM »
The number of votes is interesting too. 31 people have played ANGC that voted?  Certainly could be but it seems high to me. Did people have to play it, or does walking it at the Masters count?

Kenny Baer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2009, 02:12:06 PM »
Why does 31 people playing ANGC sound high?  Out of 1,500 hard core golfers.

Peter Pratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: G.C.A. UNOFFICIAL Top 100 Released
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2009, 02:34:01 PM »
Thanks, ian, for your quick reply. This was quite an undertaking, but I'm grateful that you did it. As many have said, the list feels right.

Peter

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