[BCrosby]

From time to time I play alone, it is peaceful and I enjoy the solitude and beauty in which I hit my shots, but it is not golf. We need a warm body to extract the full pleasure of our efforts. Golf is competition and will ever be so..

Bob

Perfectly said. Thanks

Bob

[Jud_T]

Guys,

What's all the fuss about? Sounds like a simple difference of opinion.  I love playing by myself on occasion, primarily for the solitude and the quick play. In the states we have to post every score of more than 7 holes for 9 and more than 13 holes for 18 for handicap, so this is technically not practice.  However, when I play with others I always play some sort of match as this is a lot more fun. Medal play tournaments are good for the most competitive players, and apparently for getting a UK handicap.  So let's agree to disagree.  If you don't like playing solo, don't.  If you prefer grinding out a medal score to a match and think this is how you really test yourself, go for it.  And if you prefer the comeraderie and sport of match play then have at it....

[Mac Plumart]

Guys...I've been finding the thread very interesting.  Bob, I think it was, stated that golf was competition.  I disagree.  A golf tournament is competition.  I think golf in its primal sense is much more than competition...it is excercise, a mental and physical challenge, a test of character and intergrity, as well as competition...who you choose to compete with is up to you, it could be another person, it could be yourself, it could be the course.  But if you play the game, by the rules, it doesn't matter if you play match, medal, or all by your lonesome of a golf course...golf is still golf.  

Thus far, I've played in three tournaments...if it matters I've won 2 of those on a net basis and the one I lost I played in 5 weeks after my second hip replacement.  In comparison to all the tournaments I've played, I have found that the vast majority of the rounds I've played by myself have felt like the purest forms of golf.  Hit the ball, play it as it lies, and put the ball in the hole.  Even in the tournaments, I've found that if the ball was within a certain length from the hole...it was a gimmie.  That is not pure golf.  Also, in casual nassau type games...people usually take two off the first tee.  This type of stuff is playing at golf, not playing golf...right?  Whether you play it by yourself or with others is irrelevant in my book...it is how you played it.

Also, I have been curious to observe why people play golf.  I think I have found a few general categories of reasons.  One is competition.  The question these guys always ask others when they heard they played golf is...what did you shoot?  Another is what I call the "snob factor"...the question these guys ask is...where did you play? (now for the record, I don't mean the "snob factor" to be a negative description and if it is taken that way you can throw me in this camp at least partially...so I am cutting myself down).  Another category of golfers that I haven't found a label for are the guys who ask, did you have fun?  I hope I fit this category most of all.  

Anyway, there are my 2 cents on this game and what it is all about.  But remember I've only been playing for a little over 2 years.

[Brent Hutto]

I took up golf at 15 years ago (at age 33) to get some exercise and relaxation. Had never set foot on a golf course before then. And that is still a main reason. I don't get any more exercise and relaxation by writing down every stroke on a scorecard than I do just hitting the ball, finding it and hitting it again.

In due time I discovered that golf is also a fun way to travel. But once again, my enjoyment of traveling to some new spot in England and playing a golf course I've never seen before is in no way enhanced by having a scorecard in my hand. And I'll be damned if I'm going to be one of those pathetic losers who answers the question "How did you like playing the Old Course?" by saying "It was pretty good, shot an 87 but the greens were kind of slow".

I also discovered that golf as a game by which I mean something you win or lose versus an opponent is great fun. But for those of us not good enough to shoot somewhere around par, I fail to see how anyone doesn't find match play more fun than plodding along in your own little world counting up strokes and writing them down. Sure, 72 holes of stroke play is the ideal format for sorting out the best player among a large field of skilled, closely-matched golfers. But that's not the game I play and I'm not all that sure I'd play it even if I had the necessary skill.

Now obviously this is a minority opinion among USA golfers. So be it, I'm used to being an oddball. But don't pretend that the pencil-and-scorecard mentality is without implications for golf course architecture, maintenance, pace of play and every other aspect of the game. The majority rules but it doesn't mean the majority has a inside line on the True Meaning of the Game.

[Kyle Harris]

Giles,

But conceding putts, while permitted by the rules, is still a habit. If the putts never got conceded, the pace would remain the same.

You still haven't won me over. Pace of play is a habit, not a matter of rule.

[Brent Hutto]

Pace of play is a habit, not a matter of rule.

Quite true.

[Bill_McBride]

Giles,

But conceding putts, while permitted by the rules, is still a habit. If the putts never got conceded, the pace would remain the same.

You still haven't won me over. Pace of play is a habit, not a matter of rule.

Conceding putts is a habit?  I thought it was strategic in some cases, more or less mandatory in others.  It's discretionary and up to the opponent.

Unless the player is out of the hole, then he concedes by becoming BIP (ball in pocket).  Not a "habit" but part of match play.

[Kyle Harris]

Giles,

But conceding putts, while permitted by the rules, is still a habit. If the putts never got conceded, the pace would remain the same.

You still haven't won me over. Pace of play is a habit, not a matter of rule.

Conceding putts is a habit?  I thought it was strategic in some cases, more or less mandatory in others.  It's discretionary and up to the opponent.

Unless the player is out of the hole, then he concedes by becoming BIP (ball in pocket).  Not a "habit" but part of match play.

Bill,

Please cite the rule where it states a player must concede a shot, and the circumstances under which one must do it.

What makes Match Play faster is that the two opponents agree, either consciously or subconsciously, that they don't care enough about their play to grind out every shot. The same can be said for Stroke Play. The opposite is also true and I've been stuck behind enough matches where each player was grinding and taking their time on each shot - regardless of the format.

[Bill_McBride]

Giles,

But conceding putts, while permitted by the rules, is still a habit. If the putts never got conceded, the pace would remain the same.

You still haven't won me over. Pace of play is a habit, not a matter of rule.

Conceding putts is a habit?  I thought it was strategic in some cases, more or less mandatory in others.  It's discretionary and up to the opponent.

Unless the player is out of the hole, then he concedes by becoming BIP (ball in pocket).  Not a "habit" but part of match play.

Bill,

Please cite the rule where it states a player must concede a shot, and the circumstances under which one must do it.

What makes Match Play faster is that the two opponents agree, either consciously or subconsciously, that they don't care enough about their play to grind out every shot. The same can be said for Stroke Play. The opposite is also true and I've been stuck behind enough matches where each player was grinding and taking their time on each shot - regardless of the format.

Kyle, from your second sentence above, I can only assume you have not played much competitive match play.  If so, I'm sorry.  In spite of your dismissal, it's the most entertaining competition there is.  And competition it is, there is a winner and a loser in every match.

I'll get into the rule book for your first sentence, but again, it's pretty rudimentary stuff.

[Bill_McBride]

Giles,

But conceding putts, while permitted by the rules, is still a habit. If the putts never got conceded, the pace would remain the same.

You still haven't won me over. Pace of play is a habit, not a matter of rule.

Conceding putts is a habit?  I thought it was strategic in some cases, more or less mandatory in others.  It's discretionary and up to the opponent.

Unless the player is out of the hole, then he concedes by becoming BIP (ball in pocket).  Not a "habit" but part of match play.

Bill,

Please cite the rule where it states a player must concede a shot, and the circumstances under which one must do it.

The rule is 2-4.  It doesn't say "must concede," it says "may concede."  It's up to the player whether or not to concede the putt.

2-4. Concession of Match, Hole or Next Stroke

A player may concede a match at any time prior to the start or conclusion of that match.

A player may concede a hole at any time prior to the start or conclusion of that hole.

A player may concede his opponent's next stroke at any time, provided the opponent's ball is at rest. The opponent is considered to have holed out with his next stroke, and the ball may be removed by either Side.

[Giles Payne]

I think that what I am trying to say is that match play allows for the game to be played at a greater pace all other things being equal. In my opinions puts are given when it is incredibly unlikely that they will be missed, thus speeding the game up. The same is also true of concessions of holes - for example, I see no point in continuing on a hole, say a par 3 where my opponent has stuck it stiff, I have lost one ball in the drink and have managed miss the green with my second and have failed to chip in - to prolong the hole is just unnecessary.

It is quite possible to play stroke play at a good rate if everyone plays ready golf and does not have over elaborate routines, but if the same players were to play match play and stroke play I am fairly sure that the match would be concluded more quickly. This does not mean that players with bad habits could not make match play a slow game which is where you point about habit comes in. If people find five hour rounds acceptable and expect to take that long then I am afraid that is what will happen. All I can say is thank heavens that I am a member of an stuffy old fashioned golf course where slow play is not tolerated.

[Kyle Harris]

Giles,

I played 4 years of match play. Our High School formats were exclusively Match Play.

Furthermore, if the Match is competitive, I assume both players will be holing most of their shots near the hole.

Why is it that the format is blamed and not the players habits or even ability? Those are the two biggest factors.

Bill,

Unless the rules compel the play, one cannot say the format is inherently faster. There is still a decision to be made by the player.

[Bill_McBride]

I think that what I am trying to say is that match play allows for the game to be played at a greater pace all other things being equal. In my opinions puts are given when it is incredibly unlikely that they will be missed, thus speeding the game up. The same is also true of concessions of holes - for example, I see no point in continuing on a hole, say a par 3 where my opponent has stuck it stiff, I have lost one ball in the drink and have managed miss the green with my second and have failed to chip in - to prolong the hole is just unnecessary.

It is quite possible to play stroke play at a good rate if everyone plays ready golf and does not have over elaborate routines, but if the same players were to play match play and stroke play I am fairly sure that the match would be concluded more quickly. This does not mean that players with bad habits could not make match play a slow game which is where you point about habit comes in. If people find five hour rounds acceptable and expect to take that long then I am afraid that is what will happen. All I can say is thank heavens that I am a member of an stuffy old fashioned golf course where slow play is not tolerated.

Huntercombe does have a wonderful air about it, and it was immediately apparent no one was going to play in a slackish fashion!
I was very happy our four ball match hummed along and we didn't embarrass our host!

[Giles Payne]

I agree that it is a habit to play slowly and that this needs to be sorted out. I would have thought that it is in the interest of golf courses to keep up a minimum rate of play (as TOC) does to keep the number of rounds played up.

It is also education as to etiquette and traditions which teaches you when and where to concede holes so I suspect that ignorance is frequently to blame as it is with speed of play, but it is also selfish, arrogant and inconsiderate to impose slow play on all of those on the golf course behind you. I have always been taught that you try to stay ahead and if you can't and you have lost ground to the group ahead, you let people through. You also have to remember that two balls and foursomes have priority over any three or four ball game and should be let through as soon as they have to wait. Unfortunately this now seem to more frequently considered part of history rather than current etiquette.

All of this does not change the fact that if a match is played in the correct spirit with the correct etiquette it will be a quicker form of golf than stroke play.

[Bill_McBride]

Giles,

I played 4 years of match play. Our High School formats were exclusively Match Play.

Furthermore, if the Match is competitive, I assume both players will be holing most of their shots near the hole.

Why is it that the format is blamed and not the players habits or even ability? Those are the two biggest factors.

Bill,

Unless the rules compel the play, one cannot say the format is inherently faster. There is still a decision to be made by the player.

Mercifully our college golf was mostly match play.  

I don't think anyone can say - with a straight face - that a foursome of guys grinding in a serious medal play competition won't take considerably longer to play a round of golf than two singles matches or a fourball playing best ball match play.  It's just illogical.  See Giles' post above about when one picks up.  

Unfortunately one ever picks up in medal play.

[Kyle Harris]

Giles,

I played 4 years of match play. Our High School formats were exclusively Match Play.

Furthermore, if the Match is competitive, I assume both players will be holing most of their shots near the hole.

Why is it that the format is blamed and not the players habits or even ability? Those are the two biggest factors.

Bill,

Unless the rules compel the play, one cannot say the format is inherently faster. There is still a decision to be made by the player.

Mercifully our college golf was mostly match play.  

I don't think anyone can say - with a straight face - that a foursome of guys grinding in a serious medal play competition won't take considerably longer to play a round of golf than two singles matches or a fourball playing best ball match play.  It's just illogical.  See Giles' post above about when one picks up.  

Unfortunately one ever picks up in medal play.

Bill,

I'm saying it with a straight face, because you cannot prove the correlation between the format and the pace of play. I'm done with this discussion though, until you guys play golf with Cory Lewis and myself on any given day.

Question for the Match Play is superior group - how often do your matches actually get to the 18th hole?

[Bill_McBride]

Giles,

I played 4 years of match play. Our High School formats were exclusively Match Play.

Furthermore, if the Match is competitive, I assume both players will be holing most of their shots near the hole.

Why is it that the format is blamed and not the players habits or even ability? Those are the two biggest factors.

Bill,

Unless the rules compel the play, one cannot say the format is inherently faster. There is still a decision to be made by the player.

Mercifully our college golf was mostly match play.  

I don't think anyone can say - with a straight face - that a foursome of guys grinding in a serious medal play competition won't take considerably longer to play a round of golf than two singles matches or a fourball playing best ball match play.  It's just illogical.  See Giles' post above about when one picks up.  

Unfortunately no one ever picks up in medal play.

Bill,

I'm saying it with a straight face, because you cannot prove the correlation between the format and the pace of play. I'm done with this discussion though, until you guys play golf with Cory Lewis and myself on any given day.

Question for the Match Play is superior group - how often do your matches actually get to the 18th hole?

Can't answer that question, discussion over per your second sentence!

[Kyle Harris]

Giles,

I played 4 years of match play. Our High School formats were exclusively Match Play.

Furthermore, if the Match is competitive, I assume both players will be holing most of their shots near the hole.

Why is it that the format is blamed and not the players habits or even ability? Those are the two biggest factors.

Bill,

Unless the rules compel the play, one cannot say the format is inherently faster. There is still a decision to be made by the player.

Mercifully our college golf was mostly match play.  

I don't think anyone can say - with a straight face - that a foursome of guys grinding in a serious medal play competition won't take considerably longer to play a round of golf than two singles matches or a fourball playing best ball match play.  It's just illogical.  See Giles' post above about when one picks up.  

Unfortunately no one ever picks up in medal play.

Bill,

I'm saying it with a straight face, because you cannot prove the correlation between the format and the pace of play. I'm done with this discussion though, until you guys play golf with Cory Lewis and myself on any given day.

Question for the Match Play is superior group - how often do your matches actually get to the 18th hole?

Can't answer that question, discussion over per your second sentence!

Snarf snarf snarf... 

[Bill_McBride]

Giles,

I played 4 years of match play. Our High School formats were exclusively Match Play.

Furthermore, if the Match is competitive, I assume both players will be holing most of their shots near the hole.

Why is it that the format is blamed and not the players habits or even ability? Those are the two biggest factors.

Bill,

Unless the rules compel the play, one cannot say the format is inherently faster. There is still a decision to be made by the player.

Mercifully our college golf was mostly match play.  

I don't think anyone can say - with a straight face - that a foursome of guys grinding in a serious medal play competition won't take considerably longer to play a round of golf than two singles matches or a fourball playing best ball match play.  It's just illogical.  See Giles' post above about when one picks up.  

Unfortunately no one ever picks up in medal play.

Bill,

I'm saying it with a straight face, because you cannot prove the correlation between the format and the pace of play. I'm done with this discussion though, until you guys play golf with Cory Lewis and myself on any given day.

Question for the Match Play is superior group - how often do your matches actually get to the 18th hole?

Can't answer that question, discussion over per your second sentence!

Snarf snarf snarf... 

Funny, that's what I was thinkng!   

[Giles Payne]

Bill

It was a great pleasure to play with you at BUDA and we fairly flew round Deal!

I hope you are well and playing - we have just had the wettest November for ages so I haven't been out in ages.

Giles

[Bill_McBride]

Bill

It was a great pleasure to play with you at BUDA and we fairly flew round Deal!

I hope you are well and playing - we have just had the wettest November for ages so I haven't been out in ages.

Giles

It was a fun match indeed, although I'd have had even more fun if I hadn't spotted you the first four holes!  I was quite happy to "only" lose 2&1. 

Hope you are planning to come to Wales for Buda 2010, two great links courses there as well but I will miss Deal.

Best regards.

[Jud_T]

Guys,

Slow play is the result of a myriad of factors, one of which is holing out.  There's nothing worse than waiting behind a foursome while some guy, whose max for handicap purposes is an eight, excruciatingly lines up a 3 footer for a nine....But it's also a consequence of not playing ready golf and of not being ready to play when it's your turn.  I have one work associate who is a very good friend, but is infuriatingly slow to play with.  While he could be a very good player if he put the time and effort in, he has no clue about the etiquette of pace of play.  He'll leisurely stroll up to his ball, mind wandering aimlessly, wait for his proper turn to play, and only then assess the shot at hand, debate club selection with his caddy, take 3 or four practice swings, and finally hook a 3-iron into the next county....While many here seem to think that not holing out leads to an improper handicap, the rule states that you are to give yourself what you would have likely scored.  So if I have a 5 foot slider for par and am out of the hole or a clear winner, I give myself a bogey as I'm unlikely to make more than 50% of those putts...I think many folks just take any gimme as a one putt.  But hey, anything that gives me a bit of an edge in the next match 'eh? 

[Mark Pearce]

Kyle,

I have watched this thread with some amusement.  Since Bill has left the building, can I just clarify something?  Is it your position (as it appears to be) that there is no time saving by conceding, say, a 2 foot putt, as against requiring the player to line it up and make the putt?  How about if, as happened in a club knock out match I played earlier this season, I'm off the green in 3 and my opponent is stiff in two?  Is there no time saving in my conceding his putt and both of us picking up, without him marking his ball, me chipping on, marking my ball, removing the flag, lining up my putt, taking it (and holing or not) then requiring him to tap in for the win? 

[Sean_A]

Kyle,

I have watched this thread with some amusement.  Since Bill has left the building, can I just clarify something?  Is it your position (as it appears to be) that there is no time saving by conceding, say, a 2 foot putt, as against requiring the player to line it up and make the putt?  How about if, as happened in a club knock out match I played earlier this season, I'm off the green in 3 and my opponent is stiff in two?  Is there no time saving in my conceding his putt and both of us picking up, without him marking his ball, me chipping on, marking my ball, removing the flag, lining up my putt, taking it (and holing or not) then requiring him to tap in for the win? 

Mark

I reckon we must not be correctly understanding Kyle's position. 

From my perspective, if I am not given the putt or if I have to putt out, I will take as much time as normal regardless if it is a 2 footer.  They are missable and if it wasn't given nobody can fault me for slow play.  This surely must take more time than not putting out.  By my reckoning, I think a 4ball can take up to an extra hour if all holes are played through the putter.

Ciao 

[Giles Payne]

Mark/Sean

I think that he feels that he cannot concede to reality on this as it is one area where match play has an advantage over stroke play. It does not make one superior to the other or deal a fatal blow to the whole concept of stroke play.

Giles

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