[Jud_T]

I'm guessing he's referring to cameraderie, friendship, etc....

[Sean_A]

This playing by oneself is a critical difference between UK and US systems.  A guy in the States could play by himself and grind like hell for a score.  In the UK, one can do the same, but the score isn't postable so very few people would even think to do this.  Essentially, when playing by oneself in the UK, you are not playing a game, you are practicing or just goofing off and I am sure just about everyone over here treats it that way.   

I very rarely play by myself and would only do so if I was trying to get out of some nasty family business or if I am in the neighbourhood of a course I really want to see and I don't have a partner.  Even then it would take some coaxing on my part.  I just don't get that much joy hitting balls without a game on because I think of golf as a game.  Likewise, I can't imagine going out with a partner and not having a match.  To me, it seems pointless to walk around hitting balls together in a friendly game without there being a game.  I know a lot of people are into to the solo gig of one sort or another, but it has just never appealed to me.  I guess I think of architecture as fairly useless unless it used in a competitive way - it doesn't have a life of its own.  Playing non-competitive golf is sort of like playing poker without money.  There is no incentive to work your way around a course or think your way around a hand unless something is at stake.  For me, its just going though the motions of playing.

Ciao 

[Kyle Harris]

This playing by oneself is a critical difference between UK and US systems.  A guy in the States could play by himself and grind like hell for a score.  In the UK, one can do the same, but the score isn't postable so very few people would even think to do this.  Essentially, when playing by oneself in the UK, you are not playing a game, you are practicing or just goofing off and I am sure just about everyone over here treats it that way.   

I very rarely play by myself and would only do so if I was trying to get out of some nasty family business or if I am in the neighbourhood of a course I really want to see and I don't have a partner.  Even then it would take some coaxing on my part.  I just don't get that much joy hitting balls without a game on because I think of golf as a game.  Likewise, I can't imagine going out with a partner and not having a match.  To me, it seems pointless to walk around hitting balls together in a friendly game without there being a game.  I know a lot of people are into to the solo gig of one sort or another, but it has just never appealed to me.  I guess I think of architecture as fairly useless unless it used in a competitive way - it doesn't have a life of its own.  Playing non-competitive golf is sort of like playing poker without money.  There is no incentive to work your way around a course or think your way around a hand unless something is at stake.  For me, its just going though the motions of playing.

Ciao 

Sean,

Something is at stake - your score.

Overcoming the architecture is the game. Overcoming your opponents inability to overcome the architecture in a more efficient manner than you is match play.

[Brent Hutto]

Something is at stake - your score.

And that is the crux of the entire discussion. Either "your score" is a meaningful thing to you or it is not. To Kyle it is, to Sean it is not.

Understandably, it is impossible to people on opposite sides of that divide to meaningfully argue on this topic. For Kyle to say to Sean "Your score is important even when you're playing by yourself" seems pure nonsense from Sean's perspective. For Sean to say to Kyle "There is absolutely nothing at stake when playing golf by yourself" seems equally wrong-headed  to Kyle.

Hard to see what is gained from going 'round and 'round when there is no common frame of reference.

[Sean_A]

This playing by oneself is a critical difference between UK and US systems.  A guy in the States could play by himself and grind like hell for a score.  In the UK, one can do the same, but the score isn't postable so very few people would even think to do this.  Essentially, when playing by oneself in the UK, you are not playing a game, you are practicing or just goofing off and I am sure just about everyone over here treats it that way.  

I very rarely play by myself and would only do so if I was trying to get out of some nasty family business or if I am in the neighbourhood of a course I really want to see and I don't have a partner.  Even then it would take some coaxing on my part.  I just don't get that much joy hitting balls without a game on because I think of golf as a game.  Likewise, I can't imagine going out with a partner and not having a match.  To me, it seems pointless to walk around hitting balls together in a friendly game without there being a game.  I know a lot of people are into to the solo gig of one sort or another, but it has just never appealed to me.  I guess I think of architecture as fairly useless unless it used in a competitive way - it doesn't have a life of its own.  Playing non-competitive golf is sort of like playing poker without money.  There is no incentive to work your way around a course or think your way around a hand unless something is at stake.  For me, its just going though the motions of playing.

Ciao  

Sean,

Something is at stake - your score.

Overcoming the architecture is the game. Overcoming your opponents inability to overcome the architecture in a more efficient manner than you is match play.

Kyle

So far as I am concerned, a score is meaningless if own your own because if you are on your own there is no competitive pressure.  You can't win or lose - nothing is at stake. That is why solo golf is practicing.  Architecture has nothing to so with the competitive game.  Architecture is part of the field of play.  The competition is against a competitor.  It is a total fallacy to compete against "old man par".  That is a strategy used when competing against competitors and to compete there must be at least two people playing the game.  

Brent

That isn't quite true.  My score matters to me if I am competing otherwise I wouldn't bother teeing it up.  I couldn't care less if I am not competing.  As a country member at Pennard I am not eligible to win Cups.  Therefore I don't enter Cup competitions because I don't see point of practicing during a competition.

Ciao

[Kyle Harris]

Something is at stake - your score.

And that is the crux of the entire discussion. Either "your score" is a meaningful thing to you or it is not. To Kyle it is, to Sean it is not.

Understandably, it is impossible to people on opposite sides of that divide to meaningfully argue on this topic. For Kyle to say to Sean "Your score is important even when you're playing by yourself" seems pure nonsense from Sean's perspective. For Sean to say to Kyle "There is absolutely nothing at stake when playing golf by yourself" seems equally wrong-headed  to Kyle.

Hard to see what is gained from going 'round and 'round when there is no common frame of reference.

Brent,

To be fair, I haven't read the whole thread, nor am I really trying to convince either side. But I do feel both sides tend to obliterate some definitions to advance the so-called purity of their cause. To claim one method as more pure than the other when both incorporate the "game" and a method by which one can measure and advance their skill in the game (either against others, or themselves) is nonsense.

One can cite all the past writings on the subject but in doing so will not establish the purity of one form over the other.

So long as the ball is struck with an implement designed for the purpose toward a defined target - the game remains pure.

[Kyle Harris]

My second take on a lot of the discussion here is that many of the so-called benefits of match play require participation of both parties in a de facto sense.

While competing in a match, there is no rule that states I cannot:

Keep a medal play score.
Continue playing the hole after the hole has been conceded
Completely ignore the actions of my opponent so long as I am within the rules for order of play and the rules of etiquette.

So, purity of the game, in either format is the choice of the golfer and not the product of the rules.

[Giles Payne]

I would argue that by continuing to play after a hole has been conceded you are in fact breaking with etiquette which would require you to promptly move onto the next hole.

Having read this thread it is clear that the game of golf has changed from its original form - match play. I do not want to get into arguments about evolution for fear of some of the opinions that may be out there but things do evolve.  We now have match play and stroke play. I personally prefer matchplay but understand the need for strokeplay to establish a handicap.

However, holing out every put, playing every shot and searching for every ball undoubtedly slows down the game. I find five hour rounds incredibly tedious and would almost rather not play golf if I have to continually wait on every shot. If this was the only form of golf available I would find very depressing.

[Kyle Harris]

I would argue that by continuing to play after a hole has been conceded you are in fact breaking with etiquette which would require you to promptly move onto the next hole.

The rules allow for practice or continuance of play without undue delay.

If moving to the next tee requires the group to sit there and wait for the match in front, what's the problem?

[Giles Payne]

I would agree totally if you were waiting on the next tee.

However, you might be first out on the course. I would hope that in normal circumstances the groups on the course would be moving quickly enough that you would not be having to wait on every tee.

[Kyle Harris]

I would agree totally if you were waiting on the next tee.

However, you might be first out on the course. I would hope that in normal circumstances the groups on the course would be moving quickly enough that you would not be having to wait on every tee.

What if they were already on a 3-3.5 hour pace?

It's still very very safe to say that pace of play is a result of habits golfers have and not match or medal play. One can play both in reasonable amounts of time.

[Giles Payne]

You are right in that it is peoples bad habits but I think that it is stroke play that is more likely to be exacerbating the situation.

[Jud_T]

Overcoming the architecture? No life of its own? You guys need to open your minds and your clubs will follow

[Kyle Harris]

You are right in that it is peoples bad habits but I think that it is stroke play that is more likely to be exacerbating the situation.

Meet me at Cobb's Creek Olde 1st tee on a Tuesday Morning and watch the groups playing Match Play that refuse to concede the 3 footers to game their opponents. Tee off at 8 and we can maybe be done around 1.

[Mark_Fine]

Sean,
You have a different way of looking at things.  We obviously disagree, but just because you don't have a match doesn't mean you're only out there to goof around.  Can't one compete against themselves, their best score on a hole or on a nine, or play two balls or whatever but most people are at least keeping some kind of score in their minds most of the time.  Let's put it this way, I can guarantee you that if you hole out on a par three from the tee on your first swing, you know how many strokes you took on that hole and you might even tell a few people  

By the way, some of my most enjoyable rounds have been just me and my caddy, e.g first off at Pinehurst #2 or at Cypress Point or the list goes on.  You might be goofing around playing courses like this, but most anyone else is taking it all in and trying to play well. It is not always just about a competition and when it is, it can be against oneself.
Mark

[Brent Hutto]

I enjoy playing by myself from time to time, it's very relaxing being alone on an uncrowded course. But keeping score has nothing to do with it. The only way to "measure yourself" is by winning or losing a game against an opponent. Playing alone for a score is navel gazing.

[Tim Bert]

Kyle

So far as I am concerned, a score is meaningless if own your own because if you are on your own there is no competitive pressure.  You can't win or lose - nothing is at stake.

18 month ago I began donating $500 to St. Jude's Hospital for Children every time I break 80.  When I am playing against friend, the most I ever bet is probably $5 and we're often just playing for bragging rights.  Which of the two would you consider to be greater competitive pressure?  For me, I can assure you it is the former and it exists even if I'm playing alone.  I'd also argue that it makes my score quite meaningful rather than meaningless.

I love to play match play against others so the blow-up hole here or there doesn't take someone completely out of the match - those that I play with aren't scratch golfers, so we do tend to have some triple bogeys or worse.   That being said, score matters to me as well and I enjoy knowing what I shoot.

I don't understand why folks dig in their heels on this topic.  I've played and gotten along with "scorekeepers" as well as "who gives a $hit about my score guys" from this site and enjoyed my time with both.  As long as you can keep up with the group in front of you, play however you'd like as far as I'm concerned. 

I played a round in early September where I kept track of every stroke despite not having played in almost 6 weeks because I was +1 through ten holes and I very much wanted to know what I was going to shoot (for the record I blew up and shot 84!)  I played a round 4 weeks later where I didn't use a single yardage aid or step off a single yardage the entire round and picked up on a few holes and have no idea what I shot even on the holes where I didn't pick up.  I had a blast both days - primarily because the company and the pace were top notch each time.

You are all right about the best way to play golf - all of you on both sides of the argument.  As with religion and politics, there is someone out there that you know in your heart is wrong and they are equally certain of the error in your ways.             

PS - This turned out to be a longer post than intended and it was not all directed at Sean.  I just quoted him because my original intent was to provide a different perspective on competitive pressure.

[Charlie Goerges]

... or if I am in the neighbourhood of a course I really want to see and I don't have a partner.  Even then it would take some coaxing on my part. 

Not to go totally OT here, but who is doing the coaxing?!?!?

-Charlie (imagining a heated exchange between Sean and Sean)

[Bob_Huntley]

I play with a friend who is rather well off, a jet, five house around the world etc., and we play for two dollars a nine, four dollars on the eighteen and automatic presses. To say we have fun is an understatement. Here is a man that has more money on a trade than I make in a lifetime, playing for peanuts, yet he grinds to beat me. That is the essence of the game, to beat whomsoever is your opponent.

From time to time I play alone, it is peaceful and I enjoy the solitude and beauty in which I hit my shots, but it is not golf. We need a warm body to extract the full pleasure of our efforts. Golf is competition and will ever be so..

Bob

[Jeff_Brauer]

Like many of you, I appreciate golf architecture much more than I do the actual playing of golf.  I understand the dilemma.  But, even I have to say that to ignore the scorecard is to ignore the basics of golf or really any other sport.

Do football teams really just appreciate the individual plays rather than try to score?  Do NBA players simply try to make a bunch of great individual plays rather than win......oh wait, maybe they do!

[Sean_A]

Sean,
You have a different way of looking at things.  We obviously disagree, but just because you don't have a match doesn't mean you're only out there to goof around.  Can't one compete against themselves, their best score on a hole or on a nine, or play two balls or whatever but most people are at least keeping some kind of score in their minds most of the time.  Let's put it this way, I can guarantee you that if you hole out on a par three from the tee on your first swing, you know how many strokes you took on that hole and you might even tell a few people  

By the way, some of my most enjoyable rounds have been just me and my caddy, e.g first off at Pinehurst #2 or at Cypress Point or the list goes on.  You might be goofing around playing courses like this, but most anyone else is taking it all in and trying to play well. It is not always just about a competition and when it is, it can be against oneself.
Mark

Mark

No, I don't believe you can compete against yourself.  You can create make believe situations to make practicing more tolerable, but when alone it is still practice for the real thing or just goofing around, relaxing, whatever you want to call it.  However, my take is a very UK (and proper take imo) take because in the States you can post a solo score.  I disagree 100% with doing this because I absolutely believe that having a score attested is a necessity for posting a score. 
Charlie

I have to coax myself to go out and play solo.  All the stars have to align for me to do so.  Usually, the opportunity arises while on holiday, but invariably I will choose to do a touristy thing whatever that may be, but I can fully understand people wanting to go out alone to relax. 

Ciao 

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I have to coax myself to go out and play solo.  All the stars have to align for me to do so.  Usually, the opportunity arises while on holiday, but invariably I will choose to do a touristy thing whatever that may be, but I can fully understand people wanting to go out alone to relax. 

Ciao 

Sean:

Why? Don't you just love playing golf? I enjoy golf with or without a playing partner.

In the summer I play a lot of my golf alone in the late evenings (9-10 PM) an early mornings (4-5 AM), as I don't want my golf to interfere with spendingtime with my children. I'd prefer to play with someone, but these hours aren't exactly golfer friendly. I count my score, drop balls down here and there, take pictures, savour the silence and just enjoy the whole experience.

I don't have to have a battle with someone else, I just play against the course and enjoy it.

Dónal.

[Giles Payne]

Jeff

I think scoring is a means to an end - if a basketball team score 120 points or a football (soccer) team score 4 goals they can feel that they have scored very well. However if their opponents scored 121 or 5 respectively they would each have lost!

I personally think that competition is one of the key aspects of sport. I understand people wanting to improve their scoring but I do not view that as sport, rather as endeavour. I think that the greatest test in sport are when you face your opponent - in golf these might include various Nicklaus and Watson moments - yes they were in stroke play tournaments, but in the end it came down to head to head competition. The same could be said about the time Faldo and Norman went head to head at the Masters.

Kyle

I think that it is clear that any round where you give short puts and concede holes will be quicker than a round where you play every shot until the ball is in the hole. At my course (Huntercombe) a medal round may take 3 1/4 hrs, much more and there are some very unhappy people. A match may well be completed in under 3 hrs. At BUDA this year, I played a match against Scott Warren at Deal - we were first out in the morning and were finished in 2 hrs 40 - a great match played at a good comfortable pace. If you are playing foursomes at a suitable course with cut throughs you can complete matches in 2 hrs 30.

[Sean_A]

I have to coax myself to go out and play solo.  All the stars have to align for me to do so.  Usually, the opportunity arises while on holiday, but invariably I will choose to do a touristy thing whatever that may be, but I can fully understand people wanting to go out alone to relax.  

Ciao  

Sean:

Why? Don't you just love playing golf? I enjoy golf with or without a playing partner.

In the summer I play a lot of my golf alone in the late evenings (9-10 PM) an early mornings (4-5 AM), as I don't want my golf to interfere with spendingtime with my children. I'd prefer to play with someone, but these hours aren't exactly golfer friendly. I count my score, drop balls down here and there, take pictures, savour the silence and just enjoy the whole experience.

I don't have to have a battle with someone else, I just play against the course and enjoy it.

Dónal.

Donal

Sure I like golfing, but I much rather play a game rather than just hit balls.  You summed up our differences perfectly.  You say you play against the course and I say you play on a course.  For me, to "play against" means only one thing - against a person.  As I say, I can understand folks going out for a kick about. 

Ciao

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Donal

Sure I like golfing, but I much rather play a game rather than just hit balls.  You summed up our differences perfectly.  You say you play against the course and I say you play on a course.  For me, to "play against" means only one thing - against a person.  As I say, I can understand folks going out for a kick about. 

Ciao

Sean:

But it's not just hitting balls for the sake of hitting them. I have a objective and a purpose. Not only am I trying to finish each hole is as few shots as possible, but I might try to experiment a bit; try a different type of shot, use a different club, etc. It's one way of learning an improving. When I do hit a shot that pleases me, I remember it and that can build confidence. All golf is worthwhile as long as it's played with a purpose, even non match-play/medal-play golf.

For example, I went out on Saturday afternoon for a quick 9 holes just before it got dark; it took me about 1 hour playing on my own. It was a very dull afternoon, quite cold (about 5C) , and the course was wet and soggy. There was only one other person on the course. I had to play off a mat on the fairway, and the greens weren't in great condition. Some of the fairways were sanded and quite mushy, with mud building up on my golf shoes. As you can imagine, it wasn't a perfect day for golf, but I really enjoyed it. I sank a 35 footer on the first for a birdie 2 and that alone made me happy. I hit a peach of a 3 wood on a short par 4 and after I hit it I just thought, "that felt good". I'm still thinking about some of the shots I hit and that's great stuff to put in the memory bank.

I guess we view things differently, and that's they way it is. It's about whatever makes you happy.

Dónal.

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