New South Wales - routing, pictures and opinion from Norvegia

[Brian Phillips]

As promised this thread is set up to discuss the merits of the design of New South Wales and to also discuss where it should be placed on the world ranking list of golf courses.

The course was visited by over 60 Golf Course Architects from North America, Europe and Australia.  This was part of a trip organised by the three architect groups the ASGCA, EIGCA and SAGCA.

As is well known I feel that the course receives a much too high ranking on the Golf.com list of world golf courses and hopefully this thread will explain my thoughts behind this opinion without rattling too many of my Australian friends!

Just to give you one example of why I feel it is overated, please take a look at the courses rated below NSW.  The reason that I have listed these courses is because I have either , played or have studied them:

Barnbougle
Lahinch
Portmarnock
TPC Sawgrass
Lytham St. Annes
Woodhall Spa
Bandon Dunes
Kingsbarns
Ganton
Loch Lomond
Royal Liverpool
Cruden Bay
St. Georges
Waterville
Machrihanish
North Berwick
Royal Porthcawl

I am not saying that all of these courses should be ranked above NSW but I feel a great deal of them should be and I will let you know which ones at the end of me posting the various holes from NSW.


The course was played in fine weather but in quite windy conditions probably a 2-3 club wind in an East to West direction, almost exactly with hole 8 from tee to green.

I will post the routing in this first post and then post photos of holes with my opinions in separate posts so that people can easily quote me to death!

The routing of the golf course covers the land pretty well although unlike Ian Andrew and Tom Doak I do not like the way it is routed up and over the hillside and then back again.  To me it feels forced and it feels as if it is done just to give a WOW factor when you come over the rise on hole 5.  There are a couple of holes that I felt like I was repeating a hole.  These would be holes 8 and 12 both parallel to each other and felt similar in length and play. As well as holes 13 and 16 which are shaped almost identically apart from the position of the greens, one being on the edge of a cliff the other hugging the right hand side of a hillside.

I have not yet seen MacKenzie's routing and it would be very interesting to see what he did with the ground.  I believe the Greenkeeper on the day stated that there is nothing of MacKenzie left on the course at all but I might be mistaken.

The routing below does not show the bunkering on the 18th that is in place now.

[Brian Phillips]

The first hole is a superb shortish par 4.  The yardage from the back tee is about 330 yards.  A great starting hole with some beautiful aesthetic bunkering on the right hand side of the fairway.  I was really looking forward to more of this type of bunkering but was to be disappointed!

The landing area is about 5 metres below the green as you can see from the photograph.

The green is nicely tucked into the hillside and works very well with the landscape.

[Brian Phillips]

The second hole is a par 3 that plays from about 180 yards up to about 210 yards off the back tee. The green is almost an upturned punchbowl type green with a sharp drop in the front left of the green and fall offs on all the other sides.  It must be an absolute nightmare of a green to hold for the normal player off the back tees.

For me the green did not feel exciting or sit well in the landscape when looked on from the clubhouse.  The green undulations were minimal but maybe that is fair after such a difficult green to hit.

I did not like the hole and felt it was bland compared to the starting hole.

[Scott Warren]

The second hole is a par 3 that plays from about 180 yards up to about 210 yards off the back tee. The green is almost a punchbowl type green

Que?

[Scott Warren]

Also, isn't that last picture the 9th green?

Re: the 1st hole, what did you like about the strategy/playability of the hole?

[Brian Phillips]

Scott,

Yes, getting my pics jumbled. Now removed..

Also adjusted to upturned punchbowl green...

[Brian Phillips]

Also, isn't that last picture the 9th green?

Re: the 1st hole, what did you like about the strategy/playability of the hole?

I liked the fact that it felt was pretty wide even though it was a little tight when considering the bunkers on the right.  I like the fact you saw less of the green the closer you knocked your drive to the green.

You don't feel nervous on the tee as it is a very aesthetically pleasing hole that is begging you to get started.  There were all sorts of shots taken off the tee from irons to drivers on the day.

[Brian Phillips]

The 3rd hole is a strange par 4 dogleg (that is a laugh) left hole.  The hole is about 420 yards long off the back and doglegs severely left.  As you can see from the photos the view from the tee is lacking to say the least.

Now I have nothing against blind holes or blind shots but when the shot is blind and there is also a run out that you cannot see then to me it starts to become a bit silly.

Blind shots are fine in my opinion as long as you have the width and length to handle what is in the hand of the player on the tee.

On this hole, not only is the tee shot blind but there is a cordon of trees either side of your path.  This must stress many of the high handicap golfers in the membership.  They know the line to take over the trees but the punishment is so high (lost ball) that it probably is not worth it.

If you manage to hit the middle of the fairway you then have to hit a medium to long iron shot into the prevailing wind to an elevated green protected by two flanking bunkers either side of the green.  If you pull your shot left….possible lost ball, if you slice you ball right definite lost ball...if you play long to get past the bunkers and try and judge the wind but go long….probable lost ball…

The green looks beautiful but in my opinion too penal for a green located in such a windy position.  Not a great hole.







View from the middle of the fairway but a long way out!



Views of the coastline and the irrigation pond…

[Scott Coan]

This is moving fast!  In regards to the first hole, looking at the overhead routing it looks as though there is just scrub sand up on the left but in the pictures there are some heavy bushes.  Are those bushes fairly new?  As a sprayer of the ball would love to see those removed and just leave the wastey sand area.

[Kevin Pallier]

There are a couple of holes that I felt like I was repeating a hole.  These would be holes 8 and 12 both parallel to each other and felt similar in length and play. As well as holes 13 and 16 which are shaped almost identically apart from the position of the greens, one being on the edge of a cliff the other hugging the right hand side of a hillside.

Brian

Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts – I look forward to the discussion it generates. With the Aust. Open to be staged there next week it’s good timing to review NSW GC.

Whilst holes #8 and #12 - both P5’s  - are parallel they play in completely opposite directions so I fail to understand how they feel similar ? One is usually downwind and the other into it ?

Holes #13 and #16 both dogleg right to left but the former is much shorter and more wide on the drive and approach ?

Anyway back to #1: the fairway bunkers are pretty much blind off the tee and I’m not a huge fan of them – particularly with the strong camber in the fairway left to right.

I’m also not a fan of #2 and #3 is a quirky hole. I agree it requires some ti-tree clearing in the shute off the drive but invariably unless into a strong wind – the opening holes for mine all require a long iron off the tee as the “preferred” play.

[Andrew Summerell]

The first hole is a superb shortish par 4.  The yardage from the back tee is about 330 yards.  A great starting hole with some beautiful aesthetic bunkering on the right hand side of the fairway.  I was really looking forward to more of this type of bunkering but was to be disappointed!

Brian, thanks for the thread & your efforts to post the pictures & give your thoughts.

I'm interested in your thoughts on the fairways bunkers at No.1, considering the green is bunkered on the same side. Do you feel aesthetic bunkering was necessary in that position?

[Brian Phillips]

Andrew,

What is the normal iron into that green for you guys that play the course regularly?  Probably no more than an 8 iron? 

I agree that the bunkers would probably have looked much better if they were sat into the hillside on the left handside eating into the green but how often are they really in play apart from when it is blowing a gale?

See Tim Liddy's post on the other thread which sums up my thoughts about NSW better than anything I have said.

[Emil Weber]

Thanks for the detailed tour Brian. The 3rd is the only hole I really didn't like at NSW, but anyways I'll have more time to study the course next week  .

[Andrew Summerell]

Andrew,

What is the normal iron into that green for you guys that play the course regularly?  Probably no more than an 8 iron? 

Normally a wedge, unles you lay a long way back.

I agree that the bunkers would probably have looked much better if they were sat into the hillside on the left handside eating into the green but how often are they really in play apart from when it is blowing a gale?

The bunkers come into play quite a bit as the right half of the fairway slopes down towards them. Many times I have hit my tee shot only a little right of centre only to find my ball in or around one of the bunkers. You'd be surprised how far sides ways the ball rolls on the right side of the fairway. To keep the ball on the fairway you have to hit your tee shot well to the left of the fairway. This also gives the best approach angle to the green, which is why I have always wondered why the fairway bunkers are on the right side of the fairway.

See Tim Liddy's post on the other thread which sums up my thoughts about NSW better than anything I have said.

Yes, I have read it. My concern is for the courses that have subtleties not easily seen on one or two visits. NSW is one of these courses. When you speak of World Top 100, I have played many of the courses listed throughout America, U.K. & Australasia. I have no problem with NSW being lower on the list, but when Kauri Cliffs is at 63, I don’t see NSW dropping out of the top 50. Baltrusol (Lower) is number 50 (US Golf Mag 2007) & I would place NSW ahead of that, yet Garden City (possibly due to less fancy bunkering) is at 55. I can’t understand why Garden City would not be further up the list (maybe top 40), as it too is a course of great subtlety, but probably lacks aesthetic charm.

I understand these things are subjective & people are entitled to their opinions, but challenging opinions are also part of these forums. Please don’t take offence as I find these discussions very beneficial.

It’s difficult when you are not speaking face to face with someone (I was going to join you guys in Melbourne, but I had knee surgery two week ago, so was unable to attend), but as I challenge your assertions, please feel free to challenge mine.

[Scott Warren]

More please Brian!

I have to disagree that the typical club into #3 is a "medium to long iron", or that the course has a single wind direction reliable or regular enough to be called a "prevailing wind".

[Jason Topp]

Also, isn't that last picture the 9th green?

Re: the 1st hole, what did you like about the strategy/playability of the hole?

I liked the fact that it felt was pretty wide even though it was a little tight when considering the bunkers on the right.  I like the fact you saw less of the green the closer you knocked your drive to the green.

You don't feel nervous on the tee as it is a very aesthetically pleasing hole that is begging you to get started.  There were all sorts of shots taken off the tee from irons to drivers on the day.

I am also a big fan of the first hole.  I like shorter openeners and I particularly like opening holes that present a decision without a clear answer.  I think the best play is an iron to the left, although that is by no means clear and will vary from player to player.

[Jason Topp]

I recall reading somewhere that the 2nd was altered at some point and that the writer did not like the changes.  Does anyone know what changes were made?

Also the term "upturned punchbowl" seems like a contradition to me.  I have never heard that term before.

[Jason Topp]

I agree that the 3rd appears awkward but couldn't that be remedied by clearing a bit of brush near the tee? 

I thought there was a ton of room to the right to accomodate a slice.  I didn't even remember that the bush to the right existed.  I pushed my tee ball and was in the adjacent fairway with a long difficult 2nd (I do not think the green was even within reach).  I thought that was a reasonable soft penalty for bailing out off the tee.

[Brian Phillips]

Jason,

A bowl upside down?  Does that work?

I agree that there is a lot of room out to the right on 3 but it is still a poor hole in my opinion.

[Richard Chamberlain]

Brian,

This thread would be much more entertaining if you also mentioned your stableford score on each hole.

Rich

[Neil_Crafter]

I have the scores and can post them. Or not if Brian sends me a suitable EFT payment...... Brian? paging Brian from Norwegia?

[Brian Phillips]

I will ignore the Aussies who didn't score that well themselves that day either did you...?  And you guys had played the course beforehand.  I can promise you this though...the golf course had nothing to do with my golf.  That is all my fault.

Anyway, someone shot 92 in the Open today!

[Brian Phillips]

Hole 4 - 391 metres



An elevated tee with a view over the whole landing area.  This is a nice break after the last three tight holes.  A hole of 390 metres off the back, if the wind was against you on this hole it must be very tough!

For some reason I did not take a picture of the drive but of Ted's ball after thumping what I think was a 5 wood.

The approach is blind (the only blind approach on the whole course I believe) hence the marker post.  There is so much width up to the green and around it that this felt fair.  A good breather hole where you shouldn't lose your ball unless you have a hook.

[Brian Phillips]

Hole 5 - Par 5 - 468 metres

We were playing off the reds on this hole so good crack with the driver got most all of us over the brow which you can see on the horison in the photo.



On the yardage book it says it is 237 metres to reach the downslope from the white tees.  From the elevated tee that everyone plays from I don't think that this would be much of a problem so most players, unless the wind is against of course.  Although this is a superb hole the landing area over the ridge is very tight for playing from an elevated tee.  This is one of my points about the routing, although exciting that it plays up and over a number of hills the elevated tees must make some of the holes very unplayable in the extreme wind you must get there.

Here is the view that you get as you walk over the crest of the hill.  Quite awesome.



Here is the scrub that is just off the fairway that I would guess is not more than 30-60 metres across from scrub to scrub. That sounds a lot but when you are playing from 230 metres out, over a brow, it is blind and from an elevated and very windy tee.  It isn't, I bet many a round have been ruined on this hole.


View from the fairway.  You can just see a ball which was the drive of one of the players in the group.  I tried to convince him to use the putter but he wouldn't.  I dropped a ball and putted and got down in 3.




The green is pretty much the same as all the greens, not much internal undulation but with some fall.

A view back up the hill.  My only thought was shit we have to get back to the clubhouse from down here!

[Brian Phillips]

Hole 6 - Par 3 - 185 from island tee, 154 land tee

As I have said before, turning the corner to look at the green was a complete let down aesthetically for me.  I was absolutely gutted.  In the end I took more photos of the tee than of the green.

If anyone goes into the mens locker room and stands at the urinal.  There is a superb photo there of this hole.  Guess which way the photo is taken? Yep, from behind the green to the tee.

It must be the most photographed tee in the world.







Yet again the green contours were nothing really to study or write home about.  It must be a very tough green to hold from the island tee especially if the wind is with the shot.